Bitcoin Forum
November 18, 2017, 12:52:13 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 [987] 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2008900 times)
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 01:07:09 AM
 #19721

By now, everybody should be aware that an entity or cartel with the majority of the hashpower has absolute power over the network.

In short, no. There is significant power but not absolute power.

http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/19/bitcoin-and-voting-power/
1511009533
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511009533

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511009533
Reply with quote  #2

1511009533
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1511009533
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511009533

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511009533
Reply with quote  #2

1511009533
Report to moderator
1511009533
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511009533

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511009533
Reply with quote  #2

1511009533
Report to moderator
1511009533
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511009533

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511009533
Reply with quote  #2

1511009533
Report to moderator
JorgeStolfi
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 01:14:13 AM
 #19722

It looks like POS coins might be your thing. What do you think about Bitshares?
I know practically nothing about PoS coins; unfortunately the forums I have been reading only mention them to dismiss them.
Do you think that PoS solutions are immune to miner centralization?  Or will centralization only be delayed?

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
BldSwtTrs
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 898


View Profile
January 06, 2015, 01:24:36 AM
 #19723

It looks like POS coins might be your thing. What do you think about Bitshares?
I know practically nothing about PoS coins; unfortunately the forums I have been reading only mention them to dismiss them.
Do you think that PoS solutions are immune to miner centralization?  Or will centralization only be delayed?
I see centralization-decentralization as a spectrum. With POS the cursor is a lot more toward the decentralization side of the spectrum.

For example with Bitshares there are 101 validating delegates, admittedly a single entity can set up several delegates but if it become problematic the users can fired that entity really quickly.
With NXT I think the entities which together have the power to validate the transactions are several dozens, or even more.

So basically I think POS coins have structurally a better decentralization than PoW coins by almost one order of magnitude, which is huge since there is a non-linearity of the negative effects of centralization (but I am not convinced that the greater centralization of Bitcoin is a fatal flaw).
BlindMayorBitcorn
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1050



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 01:26:45 AM
 #19724

Your prose is amazingly polished and clear. You are a professor of something. Philosophy is my guess

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
msin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148


View Profile
January 06, 2015, 02:14:45 AM
 #19725

It looks like POS coins might be your thing. What do you think about Bitshares?
I know practically nothing about PoS coins; unfortunately the forums I have been reading only mention them to dismiss them.
Do you think that PoS solutions are immune to miner centralization?  Or will centralization only be delayed?

Here are some write-ups on Nxt POS if you care to read.

https://github.com/ConsensusResearch/articles-papers/tree/master/articles
sidhujag
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1638


View Profile
January 06, 2015, 02:33:50 AM
 #19726

The USD desperately wants to appreciate.

The reason the USD lost so much value over the last century was due, not to base money printing, but to credit expansion, a.k.a debt issuance.

Debt is temporary. It's either repaid, or else defaulted. Either way of resolving debt shrinks the money supply as much as the original issuance expanded it.

As long as the population was growing, and as long as the middle class had positive savings, it was possible to expand credit. Now both conditions are no longer true.

Since it's no longer possible to continue credit expansion, the only way to stop the deflation caused by debt repayment and defaults is to print more base money (QE).

When QE stops, the USD resumes its natural appreciation.

Exactly with an additional subtlety. Not only does the Fed have to print, they have to stimulate confidence because they can never print enough to fill the debt hole  and especially the derivatives mountain. If anything, the last 6 years has shown dubious levels of confidence, if any, along with demonstrably worse real wage growth. The Internet has spawned nearly instantaneous documentation of all the stealing going on.

The last few ramps this year have been nearly vertical short squeezes by the invisible hand which shows increasing desperation, imo. Now is the time to be cautious.  

sidhuajag, I really don't think you're gonna find your masses piling into a final blow off top.
What makes you think its over fundamentally? The flash crash looked like it was over but the fed didnt let it happen...

It may consolodate until next leg up until rates rise enough to become unsustainable..

Usd and stocks will return to positive correlation as they are doing now which means the real bull may just be getting started. I have 32k on dow as first target.

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
JorgeStolfi
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 02:49:28 AM
 #19727

By now, everybody should be aware that an entity or cartel with the majority of the hashpower has absolute power over the network.
In short, no. There is significant power but not absolute power.
http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/19/bitcoin-and-voting-power/

I read that article before.  It is mistaken; users do not have voting power, because their only options are give in to the cartel or lose their coins.  Note that any entity that can jam some process for a sufficient time can force the users of that process to accept anything that is not as bad as the jamming itself.

This paper is more correct, as far as I can tell: 
http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/16/how-a-mining-monopoly-can-attack-bitcoin/

And here is my attempt to describe in more detail how the cartel could force a change of protocol that benefits miners:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qdfat/without_downvoting_me_to_hell_can_someone_explain/cn5s41z
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qmfgw/so_warren_buffet_says_bitcoin_is_bs/cn82t3q
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2qmfgw/so_warren_buffet_says_bitcoin_is_bs/cn7rxz1

Discussion of the "51%" risk often seem to assume that the attacker wants to either destroy bitcoin or to pull some scam, like a large double-spend, and then run away with the loot.  However, monopolies usually try to use their power to maximize their gains in the long term, and are careful to not kill their cash cows -- which does not prevent them from doing many nasty things.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
JorgeStolfi
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 02:50:40 AM
 #19728

Your prose is amazingly polished and clear. You are a professor of something. Philosophy is my guess
Uh, thanks! Yes, a prof of Computer Science, at a public univ in Brazil.

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 06, 2015, 02:50:54 AM
 #19729

Since PoS was mentioned I'll just deposit this as well.

PoS threatens human rights.

1. It's trickle down economics, or voodoo economics as POTUS 41 phrased it
2. No room for technological innovation, it's rigged for early adopters only.
3. Closed universe that can arbitrarily exclude groups of people with no entry point.
4. Can be secretly and permanently monopolized with no detection mechanism. No free market possible.
5. Deceptive practices to spoof decentralization can promote extortion and human traficking.

edit: Bitcoin mining pools also threaten human rights, but not the protocol itself.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 03:01:43 AM
 #19730


I read that article before.  It is mistaken; users do not have voting power, because their only options are give in to the cartel or lose their coins.

how can you be so blind as to not see there is a 3rd option for users which prevents the miners from exercising this cartel gambit:  SELL.

if users get the sense that there is any funny business going on with the fundamental process of fairness and honesty that was "sold" to them in the first place when researching open source, transparent Bitcoin, they will "get out" by selling their coins.  this would crash the price and all the profits the miners were hoping to harvest would vanish in a second along with the multi-millions they invested in their mining equipment.  we know this b/c it is a voluntary system that has grown from nothing precisely b/c of these promises.  which is, btw, why i have such a problem with BS inserting a change into the source code meant precisely to benefit their business model.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 03:09:44 AM
 #19731

It looks like POS coins might be your thing. What do you think about Bitshares?
I know practically nothing about PoS coins; unfortunately the forums I have been reading only mention them to dismiss them.
Do you think that PoS solutions are immune to miner centralization?  Or will centralization only be delayed?

while certainly eloquent, you admittedly and surprisingly have very little knowledge about many of the ancillary branches surrounding Bitcoin.  before making rash judgments about Bitcoin, you'd be wise to research and understand how these alternative systems fit into and interact within the cryptocurrency space.  by doing that, you will get a much bigger and more accurate picture of how Bitcoin compares and contrasts. this is very critical information b/c one of the cardinal investment principles that i often parrot around here is that "most investors in the cryptocurrency space are going to lose money".  i say that b/c i have significant experience investing in markets and this seems to be a universal rule.  it makes sense b/c not everyone can get rich, not even most everyone.  in fact, only a small %.  bull mkts buck most investors off several times on the way to their tops.  which is why we have, for the most part, a small % elite class in every country you might care to name (ignoring of course crony capitalism).  once you realize that so many ppl are losing money on so many altscams you realize that the simplicity of Bitcoin is a beauty to behold and has fooled so many ppl, esp geeks, who think their time has come and they can design and deserve their own money making systems that cannot possibly lose since Bitcoin and tech are right up their alley.  it's quite striking.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 03:42:39 AM
 #19732

Your prose is amazingly polished and clear. You are a professor of something. Philosophy is my guess
Uh, thanks! Yes, a prof of Computer Science, at a public univ in Brazil.

prof. bitcoin troll. ... all of your claims in that lengthy (worthless) prose are unsubstantiated of course.

lunarboy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 544



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 04:09:36 AM
 #19733

Your prose is amazingly polished and clear. You are a professor of something. Philosophy is my guess
Uh, thanks! Yes, a prof of Computer Science, at a public univ in Brazil.

prof. bitcoin troll. ... all of your claims in that lengthy (worthless) prose are unsubstantiated of course.

A Taxonomy of the Troll

Class B bitcoin troll (lat.  trollus averagus)

-How to recognize: bait-and-switch thread titles and well-executed concern trolling; methods designed to fool the reader into thinking the troll is a non-troll.  

-Recommended response: agree with everything they say in a satirical way.  Their arguments are usually so flawed that simply rephrasing back what they said will reveal their lunacy.  This technique is especially effective if the troll doesn't recognize this attack vector until he's already sunken his ship.

-Examples: Nagle, JorgeStolfi, Edward50

smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 04:19:25 AM
 #19734

By now, everybody should be aware that an entity or cartel with the majority of the hashpower has absolute power over the network.
In short, no. There is significant power but not absolute power.
http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/19/bitcoin-and-voting-power/

I read that article before.  It is mistaken; users do not have voting power, because their only options are give in to the cartel or lose their coins.  Note that any entity that can jam some process for a sufficient time can force the users of that process to accept anything that is not as bad as the jamming itself.

You need to read it again, until you understand it.

If a cartel of miners tried to block all transactions, there would be code for a hard fork within 3 hours making some trivial change to the PoW that rendered the current mining industry worthless and the hard fork itself would probably happen within a few days. And then life would continue on as usual, except that the next set of miners would know how suicidal such a move would be (and on a more contemplative schedule further changes would be made).

STT
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540


VIABET.IO PRE-ICO | NOV 14


View Profile WWW
January 06, 2015, 04:20:51 AM
 #19735

How is it all that justified Outahere.   Isnt POS just biased to the biggest holders, Im not sure how every negative you mention comes from or just from that main point ?

      ▄▄████████▄▄
   ▄███▀▀      ▀▀███▄
  ██▀              ▀██
 ██                   █
█     ██  ██     ███ 
 █   ██   ██    ██ ██
  ██ ██    ██   ██  
█  ██     ██  ██     █    
 █                   ██
  ██▄              ▄██
   ▀███▄▄      ▄▄███▀
      ▀▀████████▀▀
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
.WORLD’S FIRST CLOUD BETTING PLATFORM.
♦    Whitepaper  Bounty  Telegram  Twitter  Facebook   
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
██  ██
      ▄▄████████▄▄
   ▄███▀▀      ▀▀███▄
  ██▀              ▀██
 █████      ██
██       ██           ██
██       ██▄       ██
██       ██▀▀       ██
██       ██           ██
 ██      ██
  ██▄              ▄██
   ▀███▄▄      ▄▄███▀
      ▀▀████████▀▀
msin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148


View Profile
January 06, 2015, 04:22:50 AM
 #19736

Your prose is amazingly polished and clear. You are a professor of something. Philosophy is my guess
Uh, thanks! Yes, a prof of Computer Science, at a public univ in Brazil.

prof. bitcoin troll. ... all of your claims in that lengthy (worthless) prose are unsubstantiated of course.

I wouldn't say it was worthless or unsubstantiated, but a little mislead.  The main point being the lack of decentralization and the need to trust 3rd parties (mining pools).  However, you could say that regardless of how decentralized bitcoin is or was, it always relies on miners (pools) to secure the blockchain, whether this is 4, 40, 400, 4000 etc.. regardless of the #, they could at any time decide to collude for 51% hashing power.  There is no incentive for pools to conspire and regardless of the number of pools needed to reach 51%, there will always be a certain # of pools that "could" conspire.  There are 4 US banks that could conspire to destroy the USD, but what incentive do they have to do so?
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
January 06, 2015, 04:32:47 AM
 #19737

Your prose is amazingly polished and clear. You are a professor of something. Philosophy is my guess
Uh, thanks! Yes, a prof of Computer Science, at a public univ in Brazil.

prof. bitcoin troll. ... all of your claims in that lengthy (worthless) prose are unsubstantiated of course.

I wouldn't say it was worthless or unsubstantiated, but a little mislead.  The main point being the lack of decentralization and the need to trust 3rd parties (mining pools).  However, you could say that regardless of how decentralized bitcoin is or was, it always relies on miners (pools) to secure the blockchain, whether this is 4, 40, 400, 4000 etc.. regardless of the #, they could at any time decide to collude for 51% hashing power.  There is no incentive for pools to conspire and regardless of the number of pools needed to reach 51%, there will always be a certain # of pools that "could" conspire.  There are 4 US banks that could conspire to destroy the USD, but what incentive do they have to do so?

now imagine eying a SC for possible attack if you're a large pool.  esp a SC like Zerocoin which, if you're a US based pool, was made illegal by the US gvt.  you see thousands of scBTC riding Zerocoin yet you can't participate b/c you don't want to go to jail.  what might you do?
msin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148


View Profile
January 06, 2015, 04:42:25 AM
 #19738


now imagine eying a SC for possible attack if you're a large pool.  esp a SC like Zerocoin which, if you're a US based pool, was made illegal by the US gvt.  you see thousands of scBTC riding Zerocoin yet you can't participate b/c you don't want to go to jail.  what might you do?

Not sure I understand.  Are you referring to the legality of securing the blockchain as a result of SC?
NewLiberty
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162


Gresham's Lawyer


View Profile WWW
January 06, 2015, 05:03:19 AM
 #19739

Your prose is amazingly polished and clear. You are a professor of something. Philosophy is my guess
Uh, thanks! Yes, a prof of Computer Science, at a public univ in Brazil.

prof. bitcoin troll. ... all of your claims in that lengthy (worthless) prose are unsubstantiated of course.
Aww, give him a break, it is a public Uni, so government payroll and in a country arguably even more socialist than the US.  It is a handicap difficult for most to overcome, at least until they are tenured.
We can't expect him to even nibble at the hand that feeds him.  Even though the criticisms are fairly speculative, at least he is looking at it.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
January 06, 2015, 06:00:36 AM
 #19740

How is it all that justified Outahere.   Isnt POS just biased to the biggest holders, Im not sure how every negative you mention comes from or just from that main point ?
It's not about the biggest holders, it's about the fact that you don't even know if there are holders big enough to covertly double spend or reverse selective transactions. I have been against PoS since I first heard about it and try to point out the moral arguments about the social based system claiming to replace an energy based system. I've posted hundreds of times against PoS, but feel it's just not going to reach people because humans have two distinctly different amygdala responses to perception of threat. One of the few things I agree with Stefan Molyneux as he puts it "The reality of political power is very simple: bad farmers own crops and livestock -- good farmers own human beings..." and PoS is an ideal model for farming human beings.

I am not against people developing PoS technology, but I think it will ultimately fail.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
Pages: « 1 ... 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 [987] 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!