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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1953578 times)
tvbcof
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January 11, 2015, 06:35:00 PM
 #20001

Howabout this idea...

An asynchronous algorithm that links multiple side chains to Bitcoin in a floating peg. These side chains ...

Drop the 'floating' part of the peg (usually) and it sounds like a winner to me. ...

I was making a light hearted point, but my agnosticism can be dispelled with an actual working demonstration on a test chain.  ...

Ya, I saw what you did...even before being triggered by the red '4 comments since...' tag to glance at the thread evolution.  That's why I said "Drop the 'floating' part..."


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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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January 11, 2015, 06:51:32 PM
 #20002

why I said "Drop the 'floating' part..."
"Floating peg" is an oxymoron.  It was intentional. Markets aren't going away. They will become decentralized, but not replaced by confederate functionaries. Altcoins will evolve into state sponsored fiat currencies while Bitcoin flourishes in free states and as a voluntary reserve currency.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 11, 2015, 08:48:51 PM
 #20003


 why I said "Drop the 'floating' part..."

"Floating peg" is an oxymoron. ...

Yes, no, sort of.

I would not necessarily shun an implementation which 'floated the peg' as long as there were valid reasons for doing so (likely associated with performance optimizations and subsequent reduced costs), and as long as I could be assured that the rate-of-change of the 're-pegging' had to remain reasonable and there was suitable transparency.

Such an implementation would not be my first choice, but I could certainly imagine using such a system for certain things.  Especially low-value, but I see all uses of sidechains being for 'low value' tasks in relative terms.


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January 12, 2015, 04:39:29 AM
 #20004

Five years since the invention of Bitcoin, currency as its first application has made significant inroads into the global financial system. Its disruptive effect has shaken up taken for granted notions of money and inflamed the imagination as to what money could be. Bitcoin is characterized as decentralized stateless currency. Some critics call it money with a Libertarian bent, designed to promote a new capitalism, while many economists are quick to judge its perceived deflationary design as a fatal flaw. Yet Bitcoin does not fit any existing paradigm. It can best be understood on its own merits within the framework through which the technology itself emerged.

http://falkvinge.net/2015/01/06/understanding-bitcoin-and-its-disruption-through-its-roots/#pq=ElxHAW
lunarboy
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January 12, 2015, 04:53:34 PM
 #20005

 Brent crude oil drops more than 5% to $47.27 a barrel.

meanwhile in greece rufusal to pay tax to the government and a possible bank run before the elections on the 25th of this month.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-12/greeks-stop-paying-taxes-ahead-elections-central-bank-scrambles-halt-bank-run-rumors
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January 12, 2015, 05:37:14 PM
 #20006

Sorry, I was not blessed with the necessary Faith.   Undecided

[already quoted a few times] [and not a completely baseless argument either]


Necro. My apologies (sort of).

You argument, in three words: network insufficiently decentralized.

The counter argument, in just one more word: according to which alternative?


First, it would be pointless imo to argue against the facts: mining is concentrated more than most expected, say, 2 years ago, and more than many are fully comfortable with.

Fact as well, however: none of those conjectured 'mining cartel attacks' ever took place, and there's good reason for that: they might be technically possible, but economically not viable for anyone who holds a stake in Bitcoin (hint: sunk cost in single purpose hardware is a "stake" as well) because of the resulting market reaction upon discovery (or even suspicion such attacks are taking place). They would therefore only be mounted from someone who is willing to pay for an attack on the network itself, and I have yet to see any evidence that this is a realistic vector consistent with what we know about existing hashpower and who paid to employ it.

Finally: the level of decentralization doesn't look so bad anymore when one considers the existing alternatives. Well, there's only one really: traditional banking. It's like you're blaming jet plane air-travel for being hopelessly outdated and slow: until there's a superior alternative, it is the de facto optimum wrt speed.

Not sure which Bitcoin wallet to use? I suggest to take a look at Electrum.
Electrum is an open-source lightweight client: user friendly, fast, and one of the safest ways to store, send or receive bitcoins.
For executables (Windows, OSX, Linux, Android), source code and documentation, see the Electrum homepage.
cypherdoc
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January 12, 2015, 07:25:36 PM
 #20007

oil?  who the hell needs oil?  let alone natgas.  major storm brewing:



Dow Theory non-confirmation still in force:

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January 12, 2015, 07:32:06 PM
 #20008

One coin to rule them all:

MarketNeutral
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January 12, 2015, 07:41:12 PM
 #20009

Exciting trading ahead! Big profits, big losses. I can't wait to see how it all plays out.
cypherdoc
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January 12, 2015, 07:47:16 PM
 #20010

the creeping fear is accelerating:

cypherdoc
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January 12, 2015, 07:59:33 PM
 #20011

looks like i am gonna get my chance at reloading  Cheesy

tvbcof
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January 12, 2015, 08:19:36 PM
 #20012

...
First, it would be pointless imo to argue against the facts: mining is concentrated more than most expected, say, 2 years ago, and more than many are fully comfortable with.

Fact as well, however: none of those conjectured 'mining cartel attacks' ever took place, and there's good reason for that: they might be technically possible, but economically not viable for anyone who holds a stake in Bitcoin (hint: sunk cost in single purpose hardware is a "stake" as well) because of the resulting market reaction upon discovery (or even suspicion such attacks are taking place). They would therefore only be mounted from someone who is willing to pay for an attack on the network itself, and I have yet to see any evidence that this is a realistic vector consistent with what we know about existing hashpower and who paid to employ it.

Finally: the level of decentralization doesn't look so bad anymore when one considers the existing alternatives. Well, there's only one really: traditional banking. It's like you're blaming jet plane air-travel for being hopelessly outdated and slow: until there's a superior alternative, it is the de facto optimum wrt speed.

Bitcoin has clearly failed in an 'exchange' role as evidenced by still not needing to fiddle with the 7 tps transaction rate (1MB block size) and not being on a trajectory to need to do so any time soon.  The reason for this is abundantly clear and I've been saying so for years:  Bitcoin is simply not competitive in this role.

Bitcoin could be, however, extremely competitive in the role of a reserve currency.  But if we are relying on a foundation of 'subversion and failure could happen, but has not yet so maybe it never will', this detracts hugely from it's potential value as a reserve currency.

The pipe-dream of using Bitcoin as an exchange currency has unsurprisingly sucked in a school of intellectual herring, but more surprisingly also a bunch of VC predator food-chain class who I would have not expected to be such dullards.  This has been great for my pocketbook, but their utility is nearing the end-point.  Now is the time to appreciate the true value of Bitcoin and work toward preserving what remains of it and unrolling the damage done by centralization.  This is what sidechains mean to me.


Bagatell
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January 12, 2015, 08:28:05 PM
 #20013

Now is the time to appreciate the true value of Bitcoin and work toward preserving what remains of it and unrolling the damage done by centralization.  This is what sidechains mean to me.

Say what?
tvbcof
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January 12, 2015, 08:34:29 PM
 #20014

Now is the time to appreciate the true value of Bitcoin and work toward preserving what remains of it and unrolling the damage done by centralization.  This is what sidechains mean to me.

Say what?

Did I stutter?  'cause I don't think I did.


smooth
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January 12, 2015, 08:38:27 PM
 #20015

This is what sidechains mean to me.

Side chains are not even the slightest bit needed to use BTC as a reserve currency. It's nearly prefect the way it is. 7 tps is plenty for that. Probably an order of magnitude or two overkill in fact.


solex
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100 satoshis -> ISO code


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January 12, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
 #20016

This is what sidechains mean to me.

Side chains are not even the slightest bit needed to use BTC as a reserve currency. It's nearly prefect the way it is. 7 tps is plenty for that. Probably an order of magnitude or two overkill in fact.

Unfortunately, the 7 tps is an old estimate, and the reality of large blocks is that 2400 tx is maximum, or 4 tps. However, even this is too large because some miners still turn out near empty blocks, and would do so even if the network had a severe backlog. So 3 tps is a more accurate working number.

jmw74
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January 12, 2015, 08:44:51 PM
 #20017

Bitcoin has clearly failed in an 'exchange' role as evidenced by still not needing to fiddle with the 7 tps transaction rate (1MB block size) and not being on a trajectory to need to do so any time soon.  The reason for this is abundantly clear and I've been saying so for years:  Bitcoin is simply not competitive in this role.

Bitcoin is not very competitive for buying coffee, but that isn't the only thing people do with money.

It's quite competitive for international remittance, black market activity, and micropayments. In some cases, bitcoin is the only method that works at all. Those markets alone are absolutely massive expansion territory for bitcoin.

The reason bitcoin hasn't hit the 1mb limit has little to do with the network itself, and much more to do with the shitty state of personal computing.  Keeping high-value secrets was not what any of it was designed to do. Everything bitcoin needs for that has to be built now. A lot of progress has already been made. There's no reason it won't become easy enough for anyone to do.

However many transactions per second fit in a commodity internet connection, that's how many it will have, certainly much more than 7tps.

If you think bitcoin can succeed as a bank settlement network, you might as well sell now, because it's never going to work. The whole point of bitcoin is censorship resistance, do you really think banks and governments and payment processors see that as a valuable feature? They're the censors! If individuals don't have access to bitcoin, it will die, they're the only ones who could possibly care about it.
cypherdoc
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January 12, 2015, 08:45:34 PM
 #20018

This is what sidechains mean to me.

Side chains are not even the slightest bit needed to use BTC as a reserve currency. It's nearly prefect the way it is. 7 tps is plenty for that. Probably an order of magnitude or two overkill in fact.




the problem here is that when the price doesn't conform to ppl's expectations, low level thinkers like tvbcof & even high level thinkers like Adam, begin to believe that there is something wrong and start thinking they're smarter than Satoshi and start proposing all sorts of hair brained "solutions".  this is just another of many repeated sufferings we all have to endure.
rocks
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January 12, 2015, 08:53:42 PM
 #20019

oil?  who the hell needs oil?  let alone natgas.  major storm brewing:

Didn't you get the memo, we are all going to live off of perfectly stable wind/solar power and unicorn farts for now on.

The energy sector still has a way to go down, but it will be time to reload energy stocks in a bit (after a round of bankruptcies and defaults). The current supply/demand imbalance will not knock out US energy which has more than enough of a capital base to ride this out, but will severely damage supply from dystopian basket cases such as Venezuela (the country of my birth) and Iran.
cypherdoc
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January 12, 2015, 08:59:53 PM
 #20020

This is what sidechains mean to me.

Side chains are not even the slightest bit needed to use BTC as a reserve currency. It's nearly prefect the way it is. 7 tps is plenty for that. Probably an order of magnitude or two overkill in fact.

Unfortunately, the 7 tps is an old estimate, and the reality of large blocks is that 2400 tx is maximum, or 4 tps. However, even this is too large because some miners still turn out near empty blocks, and would do so even if the network had a severe backlog. So 3 tps is a more accurate working number.

i never heard of why the Mystery Miner of a coupla years ago failed mining 0 tx blocks.  any ideas?
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