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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2008963 times)
TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 10:12:17 AM
 #26161

In any case, the concept is sort of inane. Who ever receives a payment can trace all the way back through the chain of payment history of obscured amounts. So afaics the anonymity breaks down over time to eventually 0. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I think I conflated with the "respendable commited-tx". The homomorphic encryption was 5 slides above that. So perhaps the HE does not have the flaw I assumed. So it hides payment amounts but doesn't mix outputs from numerous entities. You'd still need CoinJoin for that, which is unscalable. And if you add on-chain ring sigs, then you don't need the HE. Also I don't understand how hiding the amount helps when the amount needs to be same for all those who are mixing in CoinJoin  Huh (otherwise analysis of permutations between input and output amounts can decrease the anonymity set).

So far this looks like another one of those half-baked Gregory Maxwell ideas.  Roll Eyes I await clarification.

Links:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=509674.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305791.0

Once a transaction has 6 confirmations, it is extremely unlikely that an attacker without at least 50% of the network's computation power would be able to reverse it.
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iCEBREAKER
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June 09, 2015, 10:13:26 AM
 #26162

So much for the Gavinistas' so-called consensus:

Quote
http://cointelegraph.com/news/114505/web-wallet-providers-divided-over-andresens-20-mb-block-size-increase-proposal

with Coinkite and GreenAddress opposing the idea, an industry consensus remains out of reach.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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Mixles
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June 09, 2015, 11:51:26 AM
 #26163


I remember watching Adam Back's talk about this concept when he was in Israel at a meeting I think sponsored by Meni Rosenfeld.


Request for comments

http://voxelsoft.com/dev/sumcoin.pdf

Donations to 1SumKArxoEJ1HoGibmj8ygw1DZWYBvjmM
sickpig
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June 09, 2015, 12:56:32 PM
 #26164


I remember watching Adam Back's talk about this concept when he was in Israel at a meeting I think sponsored by Meni Rosenfeld.


Request for comments

http://voxelsoft.com/dev/sumcoin.pdf

you sure were very quick to include Blockstream's Elements and Confidential txs in your work.
(sorry no time to read the paper right now)

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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June 09, 2015, 01:46:36 PM
 #26165


I remember watching Adam Back's talk about this concept when he was in Israel at a meeting I think sponsored by Meni Rosenfeld.


Request for comments

http://voxelsoft.com/dev/sumcoin.pdf

CT and Anon MiniChain in one coin?  Impressive tech and elegant implementation!  Do want.   Cool

Any thoughts on which PoW is a good fit?  My favorite ATM is BBR's Wild Keccak (http://boolberry.com/files/Block_Chain_Based_Proof_of_Work.pdf).

I see Coloured Coins aren't compatible.  If implemented independently, are there more trade-offs with other trendy functions like CIYAM's AT, OP_RETURN, or CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY?  What about proof of stake?

If the Monero folk decide to put Sumcoin under their hood, would you help the core devs with integration?


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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cypherdoc
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June 09, 2015, 02:30:07 PM
 #26166

I really think Bitcoin should stick to the business of money not the business of business. Blockstream is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via SC's.

Its sad to see iCELatte and marcus et al cheering the above sidecoin as a competitor to Bitcoin. It just shows how much misunderstanding there is about Bitcoin as Money which is its original goal.
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June 09, 2015, 02:34:56 PM
 #26167

Truthcoin is on its way too. Do we really want to see them leech value out of the MC?
iCEBREAKER
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June 09, 2015, 02:43:47 PM
 #26168

I really think Bitcoin should stick to the business of money not the business of business. Blockstream is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via SC's.

Its sad to see iCELatte and marcus et al cheering the above sidecoin as a competitor to Bitcoin. It just shows how much misunderstanding there is about Bitcoin as Money which is its original goal.

Bitcoin is by design a settlement system.  And like it or not, sidechains are happening.

The more subordinate sidechains BTC provides settlement between, the more utility (and thus value) it accrues.

GavinCoin is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via Frappuccinos and LightHouse:

Quote


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
sidhujag
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June 09, 2015, 02:52:51 PM
 #26169

https://www.braintreepayments.com/features/paypal

Anyone know anything bout em? I was in new York and saw their building. Apparently accepting Bitcoin.

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
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June 09, 2015, 02:57:25 PM
 #26170

i would like to propose a compromise.

let the Blockstream folks insert their SPV proof into source while simultaneously eliminating the block size limit accordiing to Satoshi's original vision. then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.

the network effect of sound money vs that of SC's (speculation). it would be a fantastic test of the market.
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June 09, 2015, 03:01:57 PM
 #26171

I really think Bitcoin should stick to the business of money not the business of business. Blockstream is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via SC's.

Its sad to see iCELatte and marcus et al cheering the above sidecoin as a competitor to Bitcoin. It just shows how much misunderstanding there is about Bitcoin as Money which is its original goal.

Bitcoin is by design a settlement system.  And like it or not, sidechains are happening.

The more subordinate sidechains BTC provides settlement between, the more utility (and thus value) it accrues.

GavinCoin is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via Frappuccinos and LightHouse:

Quote

let's be clear why they are "happening" just so you don't give everyone the impression that all of us have "accepted" something inevitable.

the initial implementation merely runs off federated servers and doesn't require a source code change like Gavin's block size increase.  thus, no concensus, or even a majority of us need to approve.  a federated server model is simply a simplistic proxy for SC's, which i'd argue really doesn't tell us much as compared to how a spv proof will perform on the MC.  it's an apples to oranges test and does not imply "victory" of the iCELatte's of the world.
TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 03:13:34 PM
 #26172

Cypherdoc's laser cataract surgery advertisement is showing up on every site I visit that has Google ads displayed (with a small thumbnail of his face). I had to delete the Google cookies to resolve the haunting. I suppose this was set when I visited his bio page. Lol.

Brave new world.

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June 09, 2015, 03:14:03 PM
 #26173

then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.
I don't think the proponents of sidechains, or of Lightning Network, will ever be in favor of unhindered competition between the approaches to see which one the market prefers.

Lightning Network in particular looks like it was tailor made to sell Bitcoin to banks.

It has the features they'd like, such as the moat of requiring large amounts of idle capital to start, and it allows deep-pocketed entities to earn passive income by virtue of having idle capital.

It reduces the number of players who can access the blockchain directly and connects them through a BGP-style routing network that would be amenible to US-style viral regulation enforcement (participants can only route payments through peers who agree to enforce extraterritorial laws, and who require all their peers to do the same). Think of that routing network as bringing Ripple-style centralized UNLs to Bitcoin.

So when I talk about selling Bitcoin to the banks I mean "sell" both in the sense of "convince them to adopt" and also "hand over the keys to".

Part of convincing the banks to adopt LN would be promising them that Bitcoin users won't have a choice in the matter - they'll have to use LN because the block size limit will stay in place (or be lowered!) and so they won't have an escape route.
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June 09, 2015, 03:14:45 PM
 #26174

i would like to propose a compromise.

let the Blockstream folks insert their SPV proof into source while simultaneously eliminating the block size limit. then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.

the network effect of sound money vs that of SC's (speculation). it would be a fantastic test of the market.

No deal.  Sidechains are, as nullc and pwuille already patiently explained to you last night, "completely orthogonal to the blocksize debate."

Did you sleep well after getting spanked and pouting until downvoted?   Grin


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
cypherdoc
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June 09, 2015, 03:16:01 PM
 #26175

let me also be clear on my stance.

i'm perfectly fine with Blockstream running federated pegs or server models.  they aren't requiring a change in the core code.  hence, they are perfectly free to run these centralized experiments.  but to extrapolate those proxy results and apply them to their ultimate goal of changing the core code (just like Gavin is proposing NOW) is much more of a challenge, not only technically but politically like we have with the block size debate.

i wish them best of luck on these experiments.  hopefully they can advance the space.  but the battle to change the code has only just begun.  those who have the purest of arguments and intentions hopefully will win out.
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June 09, 2015, 03:17:43 PM
 #26176

i would like to propose a compromise.

let the Blockstream folks insert their SPV proof into source while simultaneously eliminating the block size limit. then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.

the network effect of sound money vs that of SC's (speculation). it would be a fantastic test of the market.

No deal.  Sidechains are, as nullc and pwuille already patiently explained to you last night, "completely orthogonal to the blocksize debate."

Did you sleep well after getting spanked and pouting until downvoted?   Grin

what do you expect being in a Blockstream thread with all it's supporters cheerleading? 

why don't you answer the questions i posed since no one else seems to be able to?
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June 09, 2015, 03:20:00 PM
 #26177

i would like to propose a compromise.

let the Blockstream folks insert their SPV proof into source while simultaneously eliminating the block size limit. then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.

the network effect of sound money vs that of SC's (speculation). it would be a fantastic test of the market.

No deal.  Sidechains are, as nullc and pwuille already patiently explained to you last night, "completely orthogonal to the blocksize debate."

Did you sleep well after getting spanked and pouting until downvoted?   Grin

plus, i think you're scared to run that test.  or just plain ignorant to what i think would be the result. 

sound money would win b/c that is the fundamental problem in the world today.  we don't need more speculation via SC's.
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June 09, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
 #26178

i would like to propose a compromise.

let the Blockstream folks insert their SPV proof into source while simultaneously eliminating the block size limit. then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.

the network effect of sound money vs that of SC's (speculation). it would be a fantastic test of the market.

No deal.  Sidechains are, as nullc and pwuille already patiently explained to you last night, "completely orthogonal to the blocksize debate."

Did you sleep well after getting spanked and pouting until downvoted?   Grin

by lifting the cap while simultaneously inserting the spvp, if too many tx's were happening on MC to cause delays or unconf tx's, SC's could automatically assume the load.  or vice versa.  they would be automatic stabilizers for each other.  

i think it's a good idea and nothing for you to be scared of.

unless, of course, you have some other agenda.
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June 09, 2015, 03:29:32 PM
 #26179

i would like to propose a compromise.

let the Blockstream folks insert their SPV proof into source while simultaneously eliminating the block size limit. then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.

the network effect of sound money vs that of SC's (speculation). it would be a fantastic test of the market.

No deal.  Sidechains are, as nullc and pwuille already patiently explained to you last night, "completely orthogonal to the blocksize debate."

Did you sleep well after getting spanked and pouting until downvoted?   Grin

what do you expect being in a Blockstream thread with all it's supporters cheerleading? 

why don't you answer the questions i posed since no one else seems to be able to?

Likewise, what do you expect except upvotes when you post on GavinCoin cheerleading threads?   Wink

Nobody except Adrian and Justus cares about your shopworn sidechain FUD.

It's been debunked over and over, just like you exaggerating Gavinistas' failed "capacity cliff/hard impact/choking/strangling" scare tactics.

We aren't going to use sidechains to pull your GavinCoin wagon.  What part of ""completely orthogonal to the blocksize debate" do you not understand?


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
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cypherdoc
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June 09, 2015, 03:34:40 PM
 #26180

i would like to propose a compromise.

let the Blockstream folks insert their SPV proof into source while simultaneously eliminating the block size limit. then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.

the network effect of sound money vs that of SC's (speculation). it would be a fantastic test of the market.

No deal.  Sidechains are, as nullc and pwuille already patiently explained to you last night, "completely orthogonal to the blocksize debate."

Did you sleep well after getting spanked and pouting until downvoted?   Grin

what do you expect being in a Blockstream thread with all it's supporters cheerleading?  

why don't you answer the questions i posed since no one else seems to be able to?

Likewise, what do you expect except upvotes when you post on GavinCoin cheerleading threads?   Wink

Nobody except Adrian and Justus cares about your shopworn sidechain FUD.

It's been debunked over and over, just like you exaggerating Gavinistas' failed "capacity cliff/hard impact/choking/strangling" scare tactics.

We aren't going to use sidechains to pull your GavinCoin wagon.  What part of ""completely orthogonal to the blocksize debate" do you not understand?

why don't you try debating the technical feasibilities instead of slinging arrows?  you forget that pwiulle large miner large block attack has been debunked so he's not flawless.  plus, on reddit we're simply talking about the press release which still hasn't issued any retraction.  nothing important like the technical merits of SC's.
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