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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805845 times)
TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 06:34:25 AM
 #26181

...
So why the fuck wouldn't you be concerned about a 50% attack on minority pegged side chains which offer sanctuary from the majority KYC expropriation chain?
...

Because I have no intention whatsoever of putting anything into any sidechain that I cannot afford to walk away from with a chuckle.

Thank you! So you are not serious about hedging against expropriation.

But if expropriation becomes serious, then what will you do if there is no solution? Kiss all your wealth goodbye?

In essence, appears you do not take expropriation seriously, which is always the case before the cliff into the Dark Age.

I expect to seen numerous sidechains sponsored by all kinds of entities for all kinds of purposes.  I'm very much looking forward to being able to distribute my eggs and to uses the various sidechains to achieve various goals.

All sidechains have one thing they need:  a rock solid Bitcoin since it is their backing and the basis for their value.  I expect the majority of sidechains to be legitimate and to participate in keeping Bitcoin strong and trusted.

I also expect that a wide variety of entities are going to find operating and managing their own monetary systems (their own sidechains) to provide a lot of rewards of different types and to pass some of this value on to their userbase.  Those who are positioned to make use of such a capability are also going to be among the most influential in guiding policy.  They are going to recognize the value of an independent and trusted Bitcoin as the ingredient that makes their sidechain work feasible and employ this influence in political spheres as necessary.  These are my hopes and predictions (which, admittedly, drift off the topic at hand.)

I agree this is plausible and there could be competition of business models of side chains vs. altcoins. That would all be sufficient if not for the NWO socialism on the imminent horizon.

I HATE TABLES I HATE TABLES I HA(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ TABLES I HATE TABLES I HATE TABLES
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iCEBREAKER
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June 09, 2015, 06:58:21 AM
 #26182

there are those of us who can do anything MPEX can do.

maybe more. 

Brave words, Frap.doc.  Correct in the narrow sense that I'd rather not have MP in charge of zapping my eyes with a LASIK.   Cheesy

But MPEX has never been hacked and famously clowned the SEC functionary who bothered them.  Those aren't easily duplicated results.

You know MPEX is just the tip of the #bitcoin-assets iceberg (where the whale herds swim), right?

But let's stay on point.

Exactly what are you proposing be done in response to the GavinCoin Short?  Hope it just goes away?

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 07:00:52 AM
 #26183

But MPEX has never been hacked and famously clowned the SEC functionary who bothered them.  Those aren't easily duplicated results.

How do you know that MPEX is not a CIA/NSA/DEEP STATE operative? Normally the very public figures are comprised in the world we live in.

That SEC dialogue could be fabricated to create idolism. Russia vs. USA is a fabricated Hegelian dialectic. Obedient sheepslaves don't think so, because they don't do any research.

The war is over control of your mind. Very few of you seem capable of escaping mind programming.

I am not saying for sure he is compromised. But his stance is illogical because his GavinCoin short power is destroyed if pegged side chains make it to reality. And I hear no retort from you nor him on that point? (third time I've asked you) Normally the way to doxx an operative is to catch them in an illogical stance.

iCebreaker vs. Cypherdoc is the perfect Hegelian dialectic. They may be working for the same master whether they know it or not.

TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 07:14:38 AM
 #26184

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

Federated servers are just a hack to be able to test prior to getting the necessary softfork. Without the proper two-way peg where coins are secured by an SPV proof against the Bitcoin blockchain, this is fundamentally no different than any other off-chain solution where coins are being held in some form of custody.

Few people argue that federated methods are much more than a kludge, but as Maxwell points out in the recent announcement vid it is not clear that Bitcoin's native method of consensus, ideologically pure as it is, is devoid of fault or failure modes.  I've long argued that a federated scheme or similar would be a good auxiliary fall-back (mostly to discourage superior resource attacks from even being attempted.)  For this reason it hardly breaks my heart that necessity forces development of federated schemes which, temporary or not, deserve some degree of love.

Properly implemented federated methods absolutely ARE fundamentally different than many of todays crop of off-chain solutions.  With great effort a decent federated system might be able to inconvenience me and/or steal a tiny fraction of people's money in the micro-seconds before they were found out, but that is a completely different thing than, say, Coinbase who could freeze (and spend) all of the BTC I have in my account and everyone else's account as well.

We see that Buttcon supporters put up with all sorts of inane arguments about:

1. CoinJoin is scalable
2. Off chain anonymity is sufficient
3. Centralization won't happen because of Nash equilibrium and nodes awakening
4. Centralization is efficiency and is okay

So yeah, they will also embrace federation too.

But for those who are not idiots, they will prefer an altcoin that can't be 50% attacked, can't be expropriated, and is assuredly anonymous.

I am placing my bets on the non-idiots to survive the coming global contagion. You can decide which side you want to be on.

TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 07:28:12 AM
 #26185

Quote from: TPTB_need_war link=topic=68655.msg11571098#msg11571098

When the mining refuses transactions without KYC, then you will not be anonymous in Bitcoin. I have already explained how this will come about over time.

You are digging your expropriation grave with Bitcoin.

Anonymous cash has been the preferred form of money for the last centuries. It is only with the advent of Bitcoin in the last ~7 years that has opened the possibility of a traceable digital token for some delusional "one-world-one-block-chain" bitcoiners think its a silver bullet for every problem in the world, mainly against the system and its power-grabbing freaks they say to fight against.

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/tech-behind-bitcoin-stop-next-snowden/

Some of us see the threat. But how many of us are there? Enough to make an altcoin fly?

I think so, especially by drawing in the Silk Road market using an out-of-band application. What say you?

TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 08:56:52 AM
 #26186

An education about reality for Cypherdoc and his Kafkaesque "saving the Afrikaans" kleptocratic plutocracy.

Over the past year or two, I had been able to order imported vitamins of all types from olx.ph. The sellers didn't need a business license, didn't pay any taxes, thus low overhead and reasonable prices (about 2X what I'd pay online in the USA). They would order these in bulk from the USA and ship via filoutlet.com to Manila. You'd send them a money transfer or bank deposit, then they'd ship to you. An ideal market for Bitcoin right? Read on...

Suddenly olx.ph merged with both ayosdito.ph and sulit.ph, leaving only buyandsell.ph and ebay.ph remaining. Well ebay still allows vitamins apparently but takes a 10% cut. But all the other sites apparently no longer allow human vitamin listings, ostensibly because the BFAD (Bureau of Food and Drugs) has cracked down. Yet you can still buy vitamins on ebay.ph, Lazada.com.ph, and one other site. Lazada is only allowing sellers who have registered with the government and thus pay taxes, as well as taking their own cut of the sale.

So the problem is that for any site to do what used to be available is going to require anonymity for the site (not for the resellers because the government would never try to go after 100s of small resellers). But how to make a site anonymous? Tor hidden servers are apparently compromised. And besides no one in the Philippines is going to install Tor just to shop online.

The slow creep into the NWO is underway. You'd have to be blind to not see.

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June 09, 2015, 09:28:48 AM
 #26187

There is one fly in the ointment of curing the altcoin disease with pegged side coins.

Users will use a side chain for features they like, but there is 0 direct incentive for them to use a side chain to get a higher ROI on their investment.

Thus those who want to maximize ROI of some new feature such as for example on chain anonymity (off chain anonymity is untenable), will prefer to buy the altcoin version of the feature assuming that altcoin has a superior adoption curve to Bitcoin (remember smaller things grow faster on percentage basis).

And especially if that altcoin has an ecosystem that refuses to accept BTC directly because it is recognized that Bitcoin is a NWO paradigm wherein the future is Coinbase, Circle, Paypal, Facebook, etc will move their zombie masses onto a pegged side chain they control with a centralized ledger, with full compliance government KYC required on all transactions. The masses don't care. They already completed the KYC requirement when they joined those sites.

It will come down to a war over anonymity. Bitcoin gets the non-anonymous world. Another altcoin will vie for the anonymous world if it is done correctly. The key will be driving anonymous usage and thus adoption.

One could argue that an anonymous side chain would suffice for users of anonymity, but this depends on the usage of anonymity. If all you are doing is storing value, then you plan to cash out via BTC, then that isn't going to drive much adoption as evident for Moanero.

But if you've got an ecosystem for anonymity that has investors and operators who refuse to accept BTC then such an ecosystem can outpace Bitcoin's percentage growth and thus ROI for investors.

Why would investors and operators of an anonymity ecosystem refuse to accept BTC? Because they'd be shooting their own foot in terms of their investment in the altcoin with a higher growth rate. They'd be siphoning off their own network effects and diluting them into the larger monolith of BTC chains. It is a simple economic calculation. One can assume that anonymous operators will be intelligent, otherwise they wouldn't be interested in anonymity.

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June 09, 2015, 09:32:12 AM
 #26188

Disregard Frap.doc's FUD.  Acquire primary sources:

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements

https://people.xiph.org/~greg/blockstream.gmaxwell.elements.talk.060815.pdf

https://youtu.be/9pyVvq-vrrM   SF Bitcoin Devs: Bringing New Elements to Bitcoin with Sidechains (Greg Maxwell)

https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt


The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 09:39:53 AM
 #26189


I remember watching Adam Back's talk about this concept when he was in Israel at a meeting I think sponsored by Meni Rosenfeld.

In any case, the concept is sort of inane. Who ever receives a payment can trace all the way back through the chain of payment history of obscured amounts. So afaics the anonymity breaks down over time to eventually 0. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Also in the linked text from Maxell, he claims that ring sigs need a forever expanding high bloated unscalable block chain. I have solved that problem.

The main problem side chains has introduced for me, is they can steal my technology and put it in a side chain. So I will just have to put it in a side chain first and make sure I am siphoning value from BTC in a way that can't technologically be improved upon. I know how to do this because it was already necessary in my design.

So everything is falling right into place for me. Monero has eventually been co-opted by side chains (unfortunately).

TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 10:12:17 AM
 #26190

In any case, the concept is sort of inane. Who ever receives a payment can trace all the way back through the chain of payment history of obscured amounts. So afaics the anonymity breaks down over time to eventually 0. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I think I conflated with the "respendable commited-tx". The homomorphic encryption was 5 slides above that. So perhaps the HE does not have the flaw I assumed. So it hides payment amounts but doesn't mix outputs from numerous entities. You'd still need CoinJoin for that, which is unscalable. And if you add on-chain ring sigs, then you don't need the HE. Also I don't understand how hiding the amount helps when the amount needs to be same for all those who are mixing in CoinJoin  Huh (otherwise analysis of permutations between input and output amounts can decrease the anonymity set).

So far this looks like another one of those half-baked Gregory Maxwell ideas.  Roll Eyes I await clarification.

Links:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=509674.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305791.0

iCEBREAKER
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June 09, 2015, 10:13:26 AM
 #26191

So much for the Gavinistas' so-called consensus:

Quote
http://cointelegraph.com/news/114505/web-wallet-providers-divided-over-andresens-20-mb-block-size-increase-proposal

with Coinkite and GreenAddress opposing the idea, an industry consensus remains out of reach.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Mixles
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June 09, 2015, 11:51:26 AM
 #26192


I remember watching Adam Back's talk about this concept when he was in Israel at a meeting I think sponsored by Meni Rosenfeld.


Request for comments

http://voxelsoft.com/dev/sumcoin.pdf

Donations to 1SumKArxoEJ1HoGibmj8ygw1DZWYBvjmM
sickpig
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June 09, 2015, 12:56:32 PM
 #26193


I remember watching Adam Back's talk about this concept when he was in Israel at a meeting I think sponsored by Meni Rosenfeld.


Request for comments

http://voxelsoft.com/dev/sumcoin.pdf

you sure were very quick to include Blockstream's Elements and Confidential txs in your work.
(sorry no time to read the paper right now)

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
iCEBREAKER
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June 09, 2015, 01:46:36 PM
 #26194


I remember watching Adam Back's talk about this concept when he was in Israel at a meeting I think sponsored by Meni Rosenfeld.


Request for comments

http://voxelsoft.com/dev/sumcoin.pdf

CT and Anon MiniChain in one coin?  Impressive tech and elegant implementation!  Do want.   Cool

Any thoughts on which PoW is a good fit?  My favorite ATM is BBR's Wild Keccak (http://boolberry.com/files/Block_Chain_Based_Proof_of_Work.pdf).

I see Coloured Coins aren't compatible.  If implemented independently, are there more trade-offs with other trendy functions like CIYAM's AT, OP_RETURN, or CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY?  What about proof of stake?

If the Monero folk decide to put Sumcoin under their hood, would you help the core devs with integration?

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
cypherdoc
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June 09, 2015, 02:30:07 PM
 #26195

I really think Bitcoin should stick to the business of money not the business of business. Blockstream is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via SC's.

Its sad to see iCELatte and marcus et al cheering the above sidecoin as a competitor to Bitcoin. It just shows how much misunderstanding there is about Bitcoin as Money which is its original goal.
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June 09, 2015, 02:34:56 PM
 #26196

Truthcoin is on its way too. Do we really want to see them leech value out of the MC?
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June 09, 2015, 02:43:47 PM
 #26197

I really think Bitcoin should stick to the business of money not the business of business. Blockstream is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via SC's.

Its sad to see iCELatte and marcus et al cheering the above sidecoin as a competitor to Bitcoin. It just shows how much misunderstanding there is about Bitcoin as Money which is its original goal.

Bitcoin is by design a settlement system.  And like it or not, sidechains are happening.

The more subordinate sidechains BTC provides settlement between, the more utility (and thus value) it accrues.

GavinCoin is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via Frappuccinos and LightHouse:

Quote

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
sidhujag
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June 09, 2015, 02:52:51 PM
 #26198

https://www.braintreepayments.com/features/paypal

Anyone know anything bout em? I was in new York and saw their building. Apparently accepting Bitcoin.
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June 09, 2015, 02:57:25 PM
 #26199

i would like to propose a compromise.

let the Blockstream folks insert their SPV proof into source while simultaneously eliminating the block size limit accordiing to Satoshi's original vision. then we can see which Ferrari will go faster.

the network effect of sound money vs that of SC's (speculation). it would be a fantastic test of the market.
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June 09, 2015, 03:01:57 PM
 #26200

I really think Bitcoin should stick to the business of money not the business of business. Blockstream is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via SC's.

Its sad to see iCELatte and marcus et al cheering the above sidecoin as a competitor to Bitcoin. It just shows how much misunderstanding there is about Bitcoin as Money which is its original goal.

Bitcoin is by design a settlement system.  And like it or not, sidechains are happening.

The more subordinate sidechains BTC provides settlement between, the more utility (and thus value) it accrues.

GavinCoin is turning Bitcoin into a vehicle for speculation via Frappuccinos and LightHouse:

Quote

let's be clear why they are "happening" just so you don't give everyone the impression that all of us have "accepted" something inevitable.

the initial implementation merely runs off federated servers and doesn't require a source code change like Gavin's block size increase.  thus, no concensus, or even a majority of us need to approve.  a federated server model is simply a simplistic proxy for SC's, which i'd argue really doesn't tell us much as compared to how a spv proof will perform on the MC.  it's an apples to oranges test and does not imply "victory" of the iCELatte's of the world.
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