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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022213 times)
TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 04:45:40 AM
 #26141

It means I don't like wasting my time with an inane bankruptcy case and I have a friend who incidentally does have a lot of heart for the case helping me out by proxying my seat.

I read TPTB_need_war's comment, and it sounded like an invitation for a literal spar in a ring. The observation that you're letting the comment hang over your head the way you are, is indicative of something...

you are incredibly self serving.  who here wants to be fully doxxed by another on an internet forum?  please chime in to support vokain on this matter and please provide your full identity as proof of your support.

You started it! You demanded to know my name, accusing me of me being Armstrong (when you know damn well I am not, this was a sly ploy of yours to build a case against me), etc.. You even printed my name in your post and demanded I confirm it. That was before vokain said anything.

And you wonder why people would like to kick your a$$.

thanks for giving all of us an idea into your sense of respect for other's privacy.

to clarify, he asked me, not you

The audacity you have.

Now you throw your toys because you can't control them.

And you play the sympathy card. You are so damn predictable. Manipulative control freak.

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greenlion
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June 09, 2015, 04:54:17 AM
 #26142

Dawn raid RPG incoming.

Sidechains ... coming up next!! exciting times!

http://www.coindesk.com/blockstream-open-source-code-sidechains/

Open source, "nothing up my sleeve", genuine article, don't settle for fake 'solutions' (xt) with hidden agendas.

We won't need tptb to continue the trainwreck from here, the SC buzz will send frappe.doc over the edge.
 
Looking forward to a 'Monero'-like ring signature sidechain and Lightning network sidechain as first working demonstrations for the force of the distributed sidechain solution of self-similar networks operating concomitantly at multiple scales transferring value effortlessly up and down the wealth cascade.

The two-way peg requires a soft-fork, and unless some significant rework of the idea has happened that I'm not aware of, the current prototypes perform the peg with federated servers.

It's entirely possible within the current development environment for any of a number of devs to prevent this from ever happening indefinitely.

Also, the only reason you would need a Lightning network sidechain is if the softfork opcode changes Lightning requires never make it into Core, which is the exact same political situation as getting a two-way peg in the first place.
TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 04:57:48 AM
 #26143

The two-way peg requires a soft-fork, and unless some significant rework of the idea has happened that I'm not aware of, the current prototypes perform the peg with federated servers.

It's entirely possible within the current development environment for any of a number of devs to prevent this from ever happening indefinitely.

Also, the only reason you would need a Lightning network sidechain is if the softfork opcode changes Lightning requires never make it into Core, which is the exact same political situation as getting a two-way peg in the first place.

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

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June 09, 2015, 05:08:54 AM
 #26144

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

Federated servers are just a hack to be able to test prior to getting the necessary softfork. Without the proper two-way peg where coins are secured by an SPV proof against the Bitcoin blockchain, this is fundamentally no different than any other off-chain solution where coins are being held in some form of custody.
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June 09, 2015, 05:29:03 AM
 #26145

Quote from: TPTB_need_war link=topic=68655.msg11571098#msg11571098

When the mining refuses transactions without KYC, then you will not be anonymous in Bitcoin. I have already explained how this will come about over time.

You are digging your expropriation grave with Bitcoin.

Anonymous cash has been the preferred form of money for the last centuries. It is only with the advent of Bitcoin in the last ~7 years that has opened the possibility of a traceable digital token for some delusional "one-world-one-block-chain" bitcoiners think its a silver bullet for every problem in the world, mainly against the system and its power-grabbing freaks they say to fight against.

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/tech-behind-bitcoin-stop-next-snowden/
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June 09, 2015, 05:30:47 AM
 #26146

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

Dead right.  I'll happily use XT as a sidechain, and especially if others are going to subsidize my activity in exchange for my allowing them to spy on me.  None of my BTC input is going to be red-listed because I can account for all of it, and I'm happy to register my XTsidecoins for buying all kinds of trinkets under the watchful eye of Big Bro.  As long as any frozen XTSC I hold eventually auto-revert to BTC in the case of a taint freeze-out or other failure I'm as happy as a clam.

I've a strong suspicion that interest in sponsoring XT will dry up if it cannot be the primary source of truth in the crypto-currency space, and it looks a lot like sidechains will beat them to the punch allowing Bitcoin to remain (and significantly extend) it's distributed infrastructure support base.

Way to go Blockstream.  You guys rock!  Not even all that far off the schedule I predicted near the beginning of the year IIRC.


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June 09, 2015, 05:51:50 AM
 #26147

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

Federated servers are just a hack to be able to test prior to getting the necessary softfork. Without the proper two-way peg where coins are secured by an SPV proof against the Bitcoin blockchain, this is fundamentally no different than any other off-chain solution where coins are being held in some form of custody.

Few people argue that federated methods are much more than a kludge, but as Maxwell points out in the recent announcement vid it is not clear that Bitcoin's native method of consensus, ideologically pure as it is, is devoid of fault or failure modes.  I've long argued that a federated scheme or similar would be a good auxiliary fall-back (mostly to discourage superior resource attacks from even being attempted.)  For this reason it hardly breaks my heart that necessity forces development of federated schemes which, temporary or not, deserve some degree of love.

Properly implemented federated methods absolutely ARE fundamentally different than many of todays crop of off-chain solutions.  With great effort a decent federated system might be able to inconvenience me and/or steal a tiny fraction of people's money in the micro-seconds before they were found out, but that is a completely different thing than, say, Coinbase who could freeze (and spend) all of the BTC I have in my account and everyone else's account as well.


TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 05:55:51 AM
 #26148

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

Dead right.  I'll happily use XT as a sidechain, and especially if others are going to subsidize my activity in exchange for my allowing them to spy on me.  None of my BTC input is going to be red-listed because I can account for all of it, and I'm happy to register my XTsidecoins for buying all kinds of trinkets under the watchful eye of Big Bro.  As long as any frozen XTSC I hold eventually auto-revert to BTC in the case of a taint freeze-out or other failure I'm as happy as a clam.

And when the dying NWO socialism expropriates all wealth, even that which can be accounted for?

Do you dismiss this as very unlikely? You will not even hedge against this outcome?

Have not Dark Ages occurred every 2 x 309 years or so throughout human history? Do you know which of the two alternating cycles we are on now? In short, do you know what time it is?

Have you not viewed at least the first of the following linked presentations? You are doing yourself a massive disservice as an investor if you don't review the following. Are you aware of the Reese commission report? (of course not, because all the copies of this Congressional report were bought up and destroyed)


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June 09, 2015, 06:06:33 AM
 #26149

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

Dead right.  I'll happily use XT as a sidechain, and especially if others are going to subsidize my activity in exchange for my allowing them to spy on me.  None of my BTC input is going to be red-listed because I can account for all of it, and I'm happy to register my XTsidecoins for buying all kinds of trinkets under the watchful eye of Big Bro.  As long as any frozen XTSC I hold eventually auto-revert to BTC in the case of a taint freeze-out or other failure I'm as happy as a clam.

And when the dying socialism expropriates all wealth, even that which can be accounted for?

It's awakening Socialism (built on and inextricably linked to cronyism and totalitarianism) that bothers me in that respect.  That's one of the big reasons that Bitcoin has captured and held my interest, and is probably the biggest reason I dislike XT so vehemently and am so excited about sidechains.

Do you dismiss this as very unlikely?

Have not Dark Ages occurred every 2 x 309 years or so throughout human history? Do you know which of the two alternating cycles we are on now? In short, do you know what time it is?

I didn't know that.  Thanks for sharing your expertise in numerology.  edit - now, how about that code?


TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 06:12:15 AM
 #26150

If it is any consolation the boys wanting to play with their big blocks XT toy will be able to run it as a Sidechain, in a sandbox, keeping the mess to a minimum. And we can all learn valuable things for when bigger blocks make sense.

Dead right.  I'll happily use XT as a sidechain, and especially if others are going to subsidize my activity in exchange for my allowing them to spy on me.  None of my BTC input is going to be red-listed because I can account for all of it, and I'm happy to register my XTsidecoins for buying all kinds of trinkets under the watchful eye of Big Bro.  As long as any frozen XTSC I hold eventually auto-revert to BTC in the case of a taint freeze-out or other failure I'm as happy as a clam.

And when the dying socialism expropriates all wealth, even that which can be accounted for?

It's awakening Socialism (built on and inextricably linked to cronyism and totalitarianism) that bothers me in that respect.  That's one of the big reasons that Bitcoin has captured and held my interest, and is probably the biggest reason I dislike XT so vehemently and am so excited about sidechains.

Awakening Socialism (i.e. 0.001% vs. 99.999% aka 99% vs. 1%) is "dying NWO socialism" because it is a resource depletion paradigm. Meaning all wealth gets expropriated. So we agree then?

So why the fuck wouldn't you be concerned about a 50% attack on minority pegged side chains which offer sanctuary from the majority KYC expropriation chain?

Do you dismiss this as very unlikely?

Have not Dark Ages occurred every 2 x 309 years or so throughout human history? Do you know which of the two alternating cycles we are on now? In short, do you know what time it is?

I didn't know that.  Thanks for sharing your expertise in numerology.  edit - now, how about that code?

Code for the computer model that discovered the 309 year cycle, or code for the vaporware crypto-coin solution I dangle in front of your face?

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June 09, 2015, 06:27:25 AM
 #26151

...
So why the fuck wouldn't you be concerned about a 50% attack on minority pegged side chains which offer sanctuary from the majority KYC expropriation chain?
...

Because I have no intention whatsoever of putting anything into any sidechain that I cannot afford to walk away from with a chuckle.

I expect to seen numerous sidechains sponsored by all kinds of entities for all kinds of purposes.  I'm very much looking forward to being able to distribute my eggs and to uses the various sidechains to achieve various goals.

All sidechains have one thing they need:  a rock solid Bitcoin since it is their backing and the basis for their value.  I expect the majority of sidechains to be legitimate and to participate in keeping Bitcoin strong and trusted.

I also expect that a wide variety of entities are going to find operating and managing their own monetary systems (their own sidechains) to provide a lot of rewards of different types and to pass some of this value on to their userbase.  Those who are positioned to make use of such a capability are also going to be among the most influential in guiding policy.  They are going to recognize the value of an independent and trusted Bitcoin as the ingredient that makes their sidechain work feasible and employ this influence in political spheres as necessary.  These are my hopes and predictions (which, admittedly, drift off the topic at hand.)


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June 09, 2015, 06:34:25 AM
 #26152

...
So why the fuck wouldn't you be concerned about a 50% attack on minority pegged side chains which offer sanctuary from the majority KYC expropriation chain?
...

Because I have no intention whatsoever of putting anything into any sidechain that I cannot afford to walk away from with a chuckle.

Thank you! So you are not serious about hedging against expropriation.

But if expropriation becomes serious, then what will you do if there is no solution? Kiss all your wealth goodbye?

In essence, appears you do not take expropriation seriously, which is always the case before the cliff into the Dark Age.

I expect to seen numerous sidechains sponsored by all kinds of entities for all kinds of purposes.  I'm very much looking forward to being able to distribute my eggs and to uses the various sidechains to achieve various goals.

All sidechains have one thing they need:  a rock solid Bitcoin since it is their backing and the basis for their value.  I expect the majority of sidechains to be legitimate and to participate in keeping Bitcoin strong and trusted.

I also expect that a wide variety of entities are going to find operating and managing their own monetary systems (their own sidechains) to provide a lot of rewards of different types and to pass some of this value on to their userbase.  Those who are positioned to make use of such a capability are also going to be among the most influential in guiding policy.  They are going to recognize the value of an independent and trusted Bitcoin as the ingredient that makes their sidechain work feasible and employ this influence in political spheres as necessary.  These are my hopes and predictions (which, admittedly, drift off the topic at hand.)

I agree this is plausible and there could be competition of business models of side chains vs. altcoins. That would all be sufficient if not for the NWO socialism on the imminent horizon.

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June 09, 2015, 06:58:21 AM
 #26153

there are those of us who can do anything MPEX can do.

maybe more. 

Brave words, Frap.doc.  Correct in the narrow sense that I'd rather not have MP in charge of zapping my eyes with a LASIK.   Cheesy

But MPEX has never been hacked and famously clowned the SEC functionary who bothered them.  Those aren't easily duplicated results.

You know MPEX is just the tip of the #bitcoin-assets iceberg (where the whale herds swim), right?

But let's stay on point.

Exactly what are you proposing be done in response to the GavinCoin Short?  Hope it just goes away?


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TPTB_need_war
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June 09, 2015, 07:00:52 AM
 #26154

But MPEX has never been hacked and famously clowned the SEC functionary who bothered them.  Those aren't easily duplicated results.

How do you know that MPEX is not a CIA/NSA/DEEP STATE operative? Normally the very public figures are comprised in the world we live in.

That SEC dialogue could be fabricated to create idolism. Russia vs. USA is a fabricated Hegelian dialectic. Obedient sheepslaves don't think so, because they don't do any research.

The war is over control of your mind. Very few of you seem capable of escaping mind programming.

I am not saying for sure he is compromised. But his stance is illogical because his GavinCoin short power is destroyed if pegged side chains make it to reality. And I hear no retort from you nor him on that point? (third time I've asked you) Normally the way to doxx an operative is to catch them in an illogical stance.

iCebreaker vs. Cypherdoc is the perfect Hegelian dialectic. They may be working for the same master whether they know it or not.

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June 09, 2015, 07:14:38 AM
 #26155

This is a key point on my todo research list. Federated servers don't work? Or wouldn't be trusted by the market?

Federated servers are just a hack to be able to test prior to getting the necessary softfork. Without the proper two-way peg where coins are secured by an SPV proof against the Bitcoin blockchain, this is fundamentally no different than any other off-chain solution where coins are being held in some form of custody.

Few people argue that federated methods are much more than a kludge, but as Maxwell points out in the recent announcement vid it is not clear that Bitcoin's native method of consensus, ideologically pure as it is, is devoid of fault or failure modes.  I've long argued that a federated scheme or similar would be a good auxiliary fall-back (mostly to discourage superior resource attacks from even being attempted.)  For this reason it hardly breaks my heart that necessity forces development of federated schemes which, temporary or not, deserve some degree of love.

Properly implemented federated methods absolutely ARE fundamentally different than many of todays crop of off-chain solutions.  With great effort a decent federated system might be able to inconvenience me and/or steal a tiny fraction of people's money in the micro-seconds before they were found out, but that is a completely different thing than, say, Coinbase who could freeze (and spend) all of the BTC I have in my account and everyone else's account as well.

We see that Buttcon supporters put up with all sorts of inane arguments about:

1. CoinJoin is scalable
2. Off chain anonymity is sufficient
3. Centralization won't happen because of Nash equilibrium and nodes awakening
4. Centralization is efficiency and is okay

So yeah, they will also embrace federation too.

But for those who are not idiots, they will prefer an altcoin that can't be 50% attacked, can't be expropriated, and is assuredly anonymous.

I am placing my bets on the non-idiots to survive the coming global contagion. You can decide which side you want to be on.

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June 09, 2015, 07:28:12 AM
 #26156

Quote from: TPTB_need_war link=topic=68655.msg11571098#msg11571098

When the mining refuses transactions without KYC, then you will not be anonymous in Bitcoin. I have already explained how this will come about over time.

You are digging your expropriation grave with Bitcoin.

Anonymous cash has been the preferred form of money for the last centuries. It is only with the advent of Bitcoin in the last ~7 years that has opened the possibility of a traceable digital token for some delusional "one-world-one-block-chain" bitcoiners think its a silver bullet for every problem in the world, mainly against the system and its power-grabbing freaks they say to fight against.

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/tech-behind-bitcoin-stop-next-snowden/

Some of us see the threat. But how many of us are there? Enough to make an altcoin fly?

I think so, especially by drawing in the Silk Road market using an out-of-band application. What say you?

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June 09, 2015, 08:56:52 AM
 #26157

An education about reality for Cypherdoc and his Kafkaesque "saving the Afrikaans" kleptocratic plutocracy.

Over the past year or two, I had been able to order imported vitamins of all types from olx.ph. The sellers didn't need a business license, didn't pay any taxes, thus low overhead and reasonable prices (about 2X what I'd pay online in the USA). They would order these in bulk from the USA and ship via filoutlet.com to Manila. You'd send them a money transfer or bank deposit, then they'd ship to you. An ideal market for Bitcoin right? Read on...

Suddenly olx.ph merged with both ayosdito.ph and sulit.ph, leaving only buyandsell.ph and ebay.ph remaining. Well ebay still allows vitamins apparently but takes a 10% cut. But all the other sites apparently no longer allow human vitamin listings, ostensibly because the BFAD (Bureau of Food and Drugs) has cracked down. Yet you can still buy vitamins on ebay.ph, Lazada.com.ph, and one other site. Lazada is only allowing sellers who have registered with the government and thus pay taxes, as well as taking their own cut of the sale.

So the problem is that for any site to do what used to be available is going to require anonymity for the site (not for the resellers because the government would never try to go after 100s of small resellers). But how to make a site anonymous? Tor hidden servers are apparently compromised. And besides no one in the Philippines is going to install Tor just to shop online.

The slow creep into the NWO is underway. You'd have to be blind to not see.

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June 09, 2015, 09:28:48 AM
 #26158

There is one fly in the ointment of curing the altcoin disease with pegged side coins.

Users will use a side chain for features they like, but there is 0 direct incentive for them to use a side chain to get a higher ROI on their investment.

Thus those who want to maximize ROI of some new feature such as for example on chain anonymity (off chain anonymity is untenable), will prefer to buy the altcoin version of the feature assuming that altcoin has a superior adoption curve to Bitcoin (remember smaller things grow faster on percentage basis).

And especially if that altcoin has an ecosystem that refuses to accept BTC directly because it is recognized that Bitcoin is a NWO paradigm wherein the future is Coinbase, Circle, Paypal, Facebook, etc will move their zombie masses onto a pegged side chain they control with a centralized ledger, with full compliance government KYC required on all transactions. The masses don't care. They already completed the KYC requirement when they joined those sites.

It will come down to a war over anonymity. Bitcoin gets the non-anonymous world. Another altcoin will vie for the anonymous world if it is done correctly. The key will be driving anonymous usage and thus adoption.

One could argue that an anonymous side chain would suffice for users of anonymity, but this depends on the usage of anonymity. If all you are doing is storing value, then you plan to cash out via BTC, then that isn't going to drive much adoption as evident for Moanero.

But if you've got an ecosystem for anonymity that has investors and operators who refuse to accept BTC then such an ecosystem can outpace Bitcoin's percentage growth and thus ROI for investors.

Why would investors and operators of an anonymity ecosystem refuse to accept BTC? Because they'd be shooting their own foot in terms of their investment in the altcoin with a higher growth rate. They'd be siphoning off their own network effects and diluting them into the larger monolith of BTC chains. It is a simple economic calculation. One can assume that anonymous operators will be intelligent, otherwise they wouldn't be interested in anonymity.

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June 09, 2015, 09:32:12 AM
 #26159

Disregard Frap.doc's FUD.  Acquire primary sources:

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements

https://people.xiph.org/~greg/blockstream.gmaxwell.elements.talk.060815.pdf

https://youtu.be/9pyVvq-vrrM   SF Bitcoin Devs: Bringing New Elements to Bitcoin with Sidechains (Greg Maxwell)

https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt



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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
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June 09, 2015, 09:39:53 AM
 #26160


I remember watching Adam Back's talk about this concept when he was in Israel at a meeting I think sponsored by Meni Rosenfeld.

In any case, the concept is sort of inane. Who ever receives a payment can trace all the way back through the chain of payment history of obscured amounts. So afaics the anonymity breaks down over time to eventually 0. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Also in the linked text from Maxell, he claims that ring sigs need a forever expanding high bloated unscalable block chain. I have solved that problem.

The main problem side chains has introduced for me, is they can steal my technology and put it in a side chain. So I will just have to put it in a side chain first and make sure I am siphoning value from BTC in a way that can't technologically be improved upon. I know how to do this because it was already necessary in my design.

So everything is falling right into place for me. Monero has eventually been co-opted by side chains (unfortunately).

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