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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010417 times)
Adrian-x
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July 22, 2015, 01:48:17 AM
 #29121



Peter Todd is right. Comically low fees isn't a promise Bitcoin made in the first place.

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@jgarzik Any announcement like that would be giving the impression that we're in control of the system, which simply isn't true. The Bitcoin protocol itself has always obviously had a transaction rate limit and associated economic consequences. We've done a bad job in communicating that fact to the general public, but doing that correctly requires a very different message than "we've changing a policy which previously meant txs were cheap, and now will mean they're expensive" - we simply don't have that level of control because Bitcoin is a decentralized system.

tl;dr: Don't try to blame the Bitcoin Core developers for a fundamental property of the Bitcoin protocol itself.

so leave it to the market, it wasn't ever agreed developers could manipulate the protocol to adjust fees to a level they dreamed appropriate, that's a Comical idea.

as pointed out many times by many people transaction fees are subsidized by block rewards, fees will increase when the reword drops enough, and the rewards are necessary to grow the network. Who could argue what the correct fare for a taxi should be if somewhere between 100% and 96% of the fee was subsidized by the cab company.  

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pleaseexplainagain
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July 22, 2015, 02:02:31 AM
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[/quote]

so leave it to the market, it wasn't ever agreed developers could manipulate the protocol to adjust fees to a level they dreamed appropriate, that's a Comical idea.

as pointed out many times by many people transaction fees are subsidized by block rewards, fees will increase when the reword drops enough, and the rewards are necessary to grow the network, who could argue what the correct fare for a taxi should be if 99% of the fee is subsidized by the cab company.  
[/quote]

very apt analogy
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July 22, 2015, 02:39:51 AM
 #29123

Quote
so leave it to the market, it wasn't ever agreed developers could manipulate the protocol to adjust fees to a level they dreamed appropriate, that's a Comical idea.

as pointed out many times by many people transaction fees are subsidized by block rewards, fees will increase when the reword drops enough, and the rewards are necessary to grow the network, who could argue what the correct fare for a taxi should be if 99% of the fee is subsidized by the cab company.  

very apt analogy

We're getting at the crux at the issue here, and thus now in danger of productive discourse occurring.

Continuing with the semi-apt metaphor of Uber's now-canonical salient example of Disruption, let us note Uber, Lyft, and Sidecar are burning copious amounts of VC funding to subsidize their ridesharing customers/drivers, so great is their fetish for market share.

Their question is to what extent is it rational to subsidize rides in order to gain market share, and our own is to what extent their model should be emulated.

(If I knew how to calculate that, I'd be too busy making big bucks programming high-frequency option trading bots to post here...)

But Bitcoin's equivalents of VC largess (block reward subsidizes and charitable community good will) do not operate on the same ROI calculus, so the metaphor breaks down quickly and catastrophically.

And thus our community cleaves (perhaps fatally) into two halves, one favoring even more generous user subsidies for the sake of Metcalfe's Law, and the other (asshole Libertarians all), who object on principle to charging less that what the market will bear for the miraculous services Bitcoin offers.


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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
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July 22, 2015, 03:12:48 AM
 #29124

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)
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July 22, 2015, 03:26:44 AM
 #29125

OROBTC:

I think you nailed the essence of the two views. But there is consequences for the current users:

With high capacity, more people will be able to use bitcoin, which is a clear advantage for the current users, because the bitcoins we have will be more liquid, and possibly higher priced.

With low capacity, there is a lower max limit to how many users there can be, because the higher fees will detract some use cases. Bluntly said, in the low capacity/high fee scenario, I might want to trade with someone that is not already a user, I have to suggest bitcoin to him, teach him everything, and if he becomes a new user, someone else is pressed out by the high fees.

I clearly favor the high capacity scenario on these grounds. Not here taking into account the risk of modifying the system.

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July 22, 2015, 03:36:51 AM
 #29126

And by "the risk of modifying the system", i mean the actual programming. I regard the current limit, or any programmed limit, as a form of defensive programming. Not as a rule inherent in the bitcoin system, as advised in the whitepaper.

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July 22, 2015, 04:07:57 AM
 #29127

Gold down already tonite.  Dow futures also down -73; that's not good:

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July 22, 2015, 04:09:41 AM
 #29128

the once powerful Barrick Gold.  everything PM is looking sick:

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July 22, 2015, 04:10:51 AM
 #29129

this one's lookin' good, eh' tvbcof?:

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July 22, 2015, 04:16:54 AM
 #29130

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

Well, I was the *first* libertarian asshole who objected on principle to charging less that what the market will bear for the miraculous services Bitcoin offers.  OK maybe not literally first, but at least I'm obnoxiously pushy and outspoken... Tongue

Yep, micropayments are very much a theoretical problem in search of an on-chain solution.  (Reddit's admittedly nifty BitcoinTip thingy notwithstanding.)

I say we work out macropayments, and in the process obsolete the BIS and its subordinate TBTF bail-out munching zombies, then worry about getting paid 2 satoshis for some snarky comment about Kim Kardashian.

Meanwhile, I support the original min tx fee of 0.01 BTC, for reasons Sunny King described starting here.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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July 22, 2015, 04:39:34 AM
 #29131

Meanwhile, I support the original min tx fee of 0.01 BTC, for reasons Sunny King described starting here.

If I'm not mistaken PPC burns the transaction fee. That's a function that doesn't exist in Bitcoin. I'm surprised that Sunny King didn't make the distinction in his otherwise insightful posts there.

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July 22, 2015, 05:03:07 AM
 #29132

Meanwhile, I support the original min tx fee of 0.01 BTC, for reasons Sunny King described starting here.

If I'm not mistaken PPC burns the transaction fee. That's a function that doesn't exist in Bitcoin. I'm surprised that Sunny King didn't make the distinction in his otherwise insightful posts there.

Sunny's weekly updates are intended for the PPC community.  So TYVM for that important point of information.  I'll retire to my Mind Palace and reconsider previous conclusions.  Unlike some people, I do that when my initial assumptions are updated.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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July 22, 2015, 11:04:50 AM
 #29133

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

And this thinking would drive all the markets that infact need the bitcoin ecosystem, either to offchain solutions or cryptocurrencies with a lower fee.

I am talking about the unbanked and poor economies.
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July 22, 2015, 11:11:49 AM
 #29134

Well, if they drive the price down to sub 1,000  no worries , it will be just for a while and is good for you buy gold again take it benefit with this situation

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July 22, 2015, 11:24:34 AM
 #29135

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

And this thinking would drive all the markets that infact need the bitcoin ecosystem, either to offchain solutions or cryptocurrencies with a lower fee.

I am talking about the unbanked and poor economies.

Bitcoin should want to include those who need it most for its own protection aka decentralization.
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July 22, 2015, 11:47:32 AM
 #29136

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

And this thinking would drive all the markets that infact need the bitcoin ecosystem, either to offchain solutions or cryptocurrencies with a lower fee.

I am talking about the unbanked and poor economies.

Bitcoin should want to include those who need it most for its own protection aka decentralization.

Who need it most?!
And Please dont tell me the "unbanked". They need money food?!, not bitcoin.

Édit: eh it seems you guys were talking about the unbanked.. *desperation* wtf is wrong with your thinking paroting the socialist humanitarian bs. Ehhhhhhhh.. Yeezus
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July 22, 2015, 11:53:11 AM
 #29137

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

And this thinking would drive all the markets that infact need the bitcoin ecosystem, either to offchain solutions or cryptocurrencies with a lower fee.

I am talking about the unbanked and poor economies.

Bitcoin should want to include those who need it most for its own protection aka decentralization.

Who need it most?!
And Please dont tell me the "unbanked". They need money food?!, not bitcoin.

Those most in need are those who have to live with tariffs, regulations and currency controls. It includes people in poor countries. Look at Africa and the middle east, there is almost no trade between neighbouring countries, it is almost all import and export to the west.

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July 22, 2015, 11:57:22 AM
 #29138

I don't want to undercut the individual greed, but as individuals, we can also act to the betterment of humanity, if we wish.

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July 22, 2015, 12:00:01 PM
 #29139

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

And this thinking would drive all the markets that infact need the bitcoin ecosystem, either to offchain solutions or cryptocurrencies with a lower fee.

I am talking about the unbanked and poor economies.

Bitcoin should want to include those who need it most for its own protection aka decentralization.

Who need it most?!
And Please dont tell me the "unbanked". They need money food?!, not bitcoin.

Those most in need are those who have to live with tariffs, regulations and currency controls. It includes people in poor countries. Look at Africa and the middle east, there is almost no trade between neighbouring countries, it is almost all import and export to the west.


That is pure fud if not bs, whatever you like.

Im not denying african's problems, but bitcoin is so not going to change anything there.

They need to get rid of corruption, access water, food, first necessity Goods, medicine, etc etc..

Why da f*ck would they need internet money? Seriously this is beyond utopia, this is nonsense. Not that it is good to care about them poor people, but you are obviously blurred by either greed or stupidity.
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July 22, 2015, 12:04:01 PM
 #29140

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

And this thinking would drive all the markets that infact need the bitcoin ecosystem, either to offchain solutions or cryptocurrencies with a lower fee.

I am talking about the unbanked and poor economies.

Bitcoin should want to include those who need it most for its own protection aka decentralization.

Who need it most?!
And Please dont tell me the "unbanked". They need money food?!, not bitcoin.

Those most in need are those who have to live with tariffs, regulations and currency controls. It includes people in poor countries. Look at Africa and the middle east, there is almost no trade between neighbouring countries, it is almost all import and export to the west.


That is pure fud if not bs, whatever you like.

Im not denying african's problems, but bitcoin is so not going to change anything there.

They need to get rid of corruption, access water, food, first necessity Goods, medicine, etc etc..

Why da f*ck would they need internet money? Seriously this is beyond utopia, this is nonsense. Not that it is good to care about them poor people, but you are obviously blurred by either greed or stupidity.

Since my comment could hardly install fear in anyone, it can not be fud. Therefore I don't have to argue the uncertainty part, nor the doubt part.

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