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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808046 times)
hdbuck
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July 22, 2015, 01:41:15 PM
 #29181

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

And this thinking would drive all the markets that infact need the bitcoin ecosystem, either to offchain solutions or cryptocurrencies with a lower fee.

I am talking about the unbanked and poor economies.

Bitcoin should want to include those who need it most for its own protection aka decentralization.

Who need it most?!
And Please dont tell me the "unbanked". They need money food?!, not bitcoin.

Those most in need are those who have to live with tariffs, regulations and currency controls. It includes people in poor countries. Look at Africa and the middle east, there is almost no trade between neighbouring countries, it is almost all import and export to the west.


That is pure fud if not bs, whatever you like.

Im not denying african's problems, but bitcoin is so not going to change anything there.

They need to get rid of corruption, access water, food, first necessity Goods, medicine, etc etc..

Why da f*ck would they need internet money? Seriously this is beyond utopia, this is nonsense. Not that it is good to care about them poor people, but you are obviously blurred by either greed or stupidity.

You have heard of m-pesa haven't you?

Did it ever occur to you that an African actually might want to use a phone to transmit magic virtual money?

yes i know mpesa. they did not waited for bitcoin to start their buisness.

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July 22, 2015, 02:20:06 PM
 #29182

After some time an entire continent should be responsible for its self. Stop blaming the "white man" for everything that goes wrong in africa.
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July 22, 2015, 02:20:49 PM
 #29183

Sure there's aid the comes from the west but china has taken over vast parts of africa. China will own africa in the new century and they bring in their own to work excluding the native africans

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cypherdoc
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July 22, 2015, 02:26:40 PM
 #29184

...

iCEBREAKER

I must be an Asshole Libertarian (because that's just kinda the way I am), but even lil ol moi thinks that security and health of the Bitcoin Ecosystem might require the occasional *tweak* now and then.  As in my idea posted a couple of weeks or so ago re minimum BTC amounts (sayBTC0.001) and/or minimum fees (say, BTC0.0003) to fight off the spammers...

I don't mind paying a bit more for my BTC payment to go through.  And, really, who needs micropayments?  (Oh...., was that an ominous silence I just heard in here?)

*   *   *

(Hear you re getting rich programming if I could do really advanced calculations)

And this thinking would drive all the markets that infact need the bitcoin ecosystem, either to offchain solutions or cryptocurrencies with a lower fee.

I am talking about the unbanked and poor economies.

Bitcoin should want to include those who need it most for its own protection aka decentralization.

Who need it most?!
And Please dont tell me the "unbanked". They need money food?!, not bitcoin.

Those most in need are those who have to live with tariffs, regulations and currency controls. It includes people in poor countries. Look at Africa and the middle east, there is almost no trade between neighbouring countries, it is almost all import and export to the west.


That is pure fud if not bs, whatever you like.

Im not denying african's problems, but bitcoin is so not going to change anything there.

They need to get rid of corruption, access water, food, first necessity Goods, medicine, etc etc..

Why da f*ck would they need internet money? Seriously this is beyond utopia, this is nonsense. Not that it is good to care about them poor people, but you are obviously blurred by either greed or stupidity.

You have heard of m-pesa haven't you?

Did it ever occur to you that an African actually might want to use a phone to transmit magic virtual money?

yes i know mpesa. they did not waited for bitcoin to start their buisness.



And bitcoin should be allowed to disrupt that business too.
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July 22, 2015, 03:41:29 PM
 #29185

$DJI continuing it's catchdown:

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July 22, 2015, 05:13:02 PM
 #29186

to the Moon:

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July 22, 2015, 05:41:39 PM
 #29187

Garzik just hit it out of the park with this one in response to Wuille:

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

    >Some people have called the prospect of limited block space and the development of a fee market a change in policy compared to the past. I respectfully disagree with that. Bitcoin Core is not running the Bitcoin economy, and its developers have no authority to set its rules. Change in economics is always happening, and should be expected. Worse, intervening in consensus changes would make the ecosystem more dependent on the group taking that decision, not less.


This completely ignores reality, what users have experienced for the past ~6 years.

"Change in economics is always happening" does not begin to approach the scale of the change.

For the entirety of bitcoin's history, absent long blocks and traffic bursts, fee pressure has been largely absent.

Moving to a new economic policy where fee pressure is consistently present is radically different from what users, markets, and software have experienced and lived.

Analysis such as [1][2] and more shows that users will hit a "painful" "wall" and market disruption will occur - eventually settling to a new equilibrium after a period of chaos - when blocks are consistently full.

[1] http://hashingit.com/analysis/34-bitcoin-traffic-bulletin
[2] http://gavinandresen.ninja/why-increasing-the-max-block-size-is-urgent

First, users & market are forced through this period of chaos by "let a fee market develop" as the whole market changes to a radically different economic policy, once the network has never seen before.

Next, when blocks are consistently full, the past consensus was that block size limit will be increased eventually.  What happens at that point?

Answer - Users & market are forced through a second period of chaos and disruption as the fee market is rebooted again by changing the block size limit.

The average user hears a lot of noise on both sides of the block size debate, and really has no idea that the new "let a fee market develop" Bitcoin Core policy is going to raise fees on them.

It is clear that
- "let the fee market develop, Right Now" has not been thought through
- Users are not prepared for a brand new economic policy
- Users are unaware that a brand new economic policy will be foisted upon them

 

    >So to point out what I consider obvious: if Bitcoin requires central control over its rules by a group of developers, it is completely uninteresting to me. Consensus changes should be done using consensus, and the default in case of controversy is no change.


False.

All that has to do be done to change bitcoin to a new economic policy - not seen in the entire 6 year history of bitcoin - is to stonewall work on block size.

Closing size increase PRs and failing to participate in planning for a block size increase accomplishes your stated goal of changing bitcoin to a new economic policy.

"no code change"... changes bitcoin to a brand new economic policy, picking economic winners & losers.  Some businesses will be priced out of bitcoin, etc.

Stonewalling size increase changes is just as much as a Ben Bernanke/FOMC move as increasing the hard limit by hard fork.

 

   > My personal opinion is that we - as a community - should indeed let a fee market develop, and rather sooner than later, and that "kicking the can down the road" is an incredibly dangerous precedent: if we are willing to go through the risk of a hard fork because of a fear of change of economics, then I believe that community is not ready to deal with change at all. And some change is inevitable, at any block size. Again, this does not mean the block size needs to be fixed forever, but its intent should be growing with the evolution of technology, not a panic reaction because a fear of change. But I am not in any position to force this view. I only hope that people don't think a fear of economic change is reason to give up consensus.


Actually you are.

When size increase progress gets frozen out of Bitcoin Core, that just increases the chances that progress must be made through a contentious hard fork.

Further, it increases the market disruption users will experience, as described above.

Think about the users.  Please.

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July 22, 2015, 05:53:52 PM
 #29188

Kicking off on reddit, too.
cypherdoc
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July 22, 2015, 07:00:55 PM
 #29189

interesting.  looks like GavinMike are going to pull the trigger soon:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3e64dk/time_to_end_bitcoin_reliance_on_core_and_end_this/ctce5cu?context=3
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July 22, 2015, 07:19:07 PM
 #29190

CAT doesn't look so good:



and like i said the other day, sub $50 oil here we are!:

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July 22, 2015, 07:39:47 PM
 #29191

Dow -101
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July 22, 2015, 07:42:26 PM
 #29192

funny as hell.  who dat?:

iCEBREAKER
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July 22, 2015, 08:01:50 PM
 #29193

hdbuck: So they need to have exactly what we have, including the socialism? (Pointing at Greece). And who should give them all that, you? No, let them trade freely, say I.


eh, utlimately i'd argue that Africans need to kick the "white man" out of their continent.
its been too long already they have been spoiled, killed and manipulated by the West/North.

Oh please spare us your anti-industrialist, neo-primitivist, affluent liberal guilt.

The Chinese, having no local version of White Man's Burden or liberal guilt, will make the Africans long for the days of semi-benevolent Christian colonial powers from Europe.

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"   Roll Eyes

The shittiest, most hopeless parts of Africa are exactly the places which have kicked out the white man.  EG Liberia, Zimbabwe, etc.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
cypherdoc
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July 22, 2015, 08:05:17 PM
 #29194

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.


http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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July 22, 2015, 08:07:03 PM
 #29195

hdbuck: So they need to have exactly what we have, including the socialism? (Pointing at Greece). And who should give them all that, you? No, let them trade freely, say I.


eh, utlimately i'd argue that Africans need to kick the "white man" out of their continent.
its been too long already they have been spoiled, killed and manipulated by the West/North.

Oh please spare us your anti-industrialist, neo-primitivist, affluent liberal guilt.

The Chinese, having no local version of White Man's Burden or liberal guilt, will make the Africans long for the days of semi-benevolent Christian colonial powers from Europe.

"What did the Romans ever done for us?"   Roll Eyes

The shittiest, most hopeless parts of Africa are exactly the places which have kicked out the white man.  EG Liberia, Zimbabwe, etc.

good
iCEBREAKER
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July 22, 2015, 08:13:37 PM
 #29196

foreigners controls both the trade and the regulation.
remember they regulated the slave trade.. Roll Eyes

Nonsense, the slave trade was thriving between tribes (sub-Saharan African and northern/eastern Arabic) millennia before any Euros arrived.

As a matter of fact, it was the Christian Euros who eventually stopped thousands of years of slaving traditions.

I guess you think it was evil pasty-white French people that harnessed the manpower to build the pyramids...  Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
hdbuck
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July 22, 2015, 08:19:54 PM
 #29197

foreigners controls both the trade and the regulation.
remember they regulated the slave trade.. Roll Eyes

Nonsense, the slave trade was thriving between tribes (sub-Saharan African and northern/eastern Arabic) millennia before any Euros arrived.

As a matter of fact, it was the Christian Euros who eventually stopped thousands of years of slaving traditions.

I guess you think it was evil pasty-white French people that harnessed the manpower to build the pyramids...  Cheesy


wtf?! being french i would not think so, but yea, whatever you think with your eloquent sociological bs.. like i'd give a dam. Tongue

edit: and oh i almost forgot.. africa needs messi (who needs 4 millions..)

http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/22/report-lionel-messi-paid-4-million-by-gabons-president-to-lay-one-brick/

XD
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July 22, 2015, 08:27:07 PM
 #29198

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.


http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

im just not too concerned about this one. pretty much everyone who has bought bitcoin over the past 2 yrs is even or under water. no point spending them at a loss. Also, the early adopters who could be spending their coins on hotels/etc. realize that "store of value" and "im not selling this low" are still valid reasons not to be spending them yet as well. im also spending my fiat more than bitcoins at the moment. if my net worth jumps another 5-10x, i'm sure i'll start spending them again.  its still a buy and hold imo

 
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July 22, 2015, 08:33:41 PM
 #29199

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.


http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

im just not too concerned about this one. pretty much everyone who has bought bitcoin over the past 2 yrs is even or under water. no point spending them at a loss. Also, the early adopters who could be spending their coins on hotels/etc. realize that "store of value" and "im not selling this low" are still valid reasons not to be spending them yet as well. im also spending my fiat more than bitcoins at the moment. if my net worth jumps another 5-10x, i'm sure i'll start spending them again.  its still a buy and hold imo

 

you just want to make sure we're not getting into a contraction cycle that we can't pull out of.  i'd much rather see us with momentum in the other direction with increasing user base that would undoubtedly drive price.  i don't think there is any shame in wanting higher prices b/c if Bitcoin really is going to be moving around large values then the price needs to be higher so as not to produce too much volatility as $millions cross borders in single tx's for purchases of homes, cars, et. 
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July 22, 2015, 08:47:38 PM
 #29200

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.


http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

im just not too concerned about this one. pretty much everyone who has bought bitcoin over the past 2 yrs is even or under water. no point spending them at a loss. Also, the early adopters who could be spending their coins on hotels/etc. realize that "store of value" and "im not selling this low" are still valid reasons not to be spending them yet as well. im also spending my fiat more than bitcoins at the moment. if my net worth jumps another 5-10x, i'm sure i'll start spending them again.  its still a buy and hold imo

 

Merchant adoption could be non-existant for all I care. Total non-issue.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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