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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807047 times)
iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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July 22, 2015, 08:50:50 PM
 #29201


Nonsense, the slave trade was thriving between tribes (sub-Saharan African and northern/eastern Arabic) millennia before any Euros arrived.

As a matter of fact, it was the Christian Euros who eventually stopped thousands of years of slaving traditions.

I guess you think it was evil pasty-white French people that harnessed the manpower to build the pyramids...  Cheesy


wtf?! being french i would not think so, but yea, whatever you think with your eloquent sociological bs.. like i'd give a dam. Tongue


I know what I'm talking about; you do not.

The "sociological bs" here is entirely of your own creation:
foreigners controls both the trade and the regulation.
remember they regulated the slave trade.. Roll Eyes

You may form your own opinions, but not your own facts.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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iCEBREAKER
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July 22, 2015, 09:26:00 PM
 #29202




^ Confirmed.

LOL, the Gavinistas are furiously scribbling their little manifesto.  This gonna be good.   Grin

Exactly like the Peoples' Front of Judea (or was it the Judean Peoples' Front?)

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Torque
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July 22, 2015, 09:26:27 PM
 #29203

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.
[/b]

http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Yeah, I like the way Expedia et al acknowledges this and yet still offers ZERO incentive (e.g., NO discounts) over using a credit card.  Roll Eyes

Also from what I know, they still limit bitcoin to just hotel purchases???
smooth
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July 22, 2015, 09:49:02 PM
 #29204

you just want to make sure we're not getting into a contraction cycle that we can't pull out of.  i'd much rather see us with momentum in the other direction with increasing user base that would undoubtedly drive price.

The point is, there is no 'momentum' on transactional use. There is some use, but it is (and always has been) small and is declining (I haven't seen actual data but I would guess the decline is simply in line with the declining mania since the 2013 price peak). Maybe it will come, someday, but for now worrying about that or about people having a poor experience because their low fee zero conf transactions don't work very well is a complete waste of time.

iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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July 22, 2015, 10:06:24 PM
 #29205

you just want to make sure we're not getting into a contraction cycle that we can't pull out of.  i'd much rather see us with momentum in the other direction with increasing user base that would undoubtedly drive price.

The point is, there is no 'momentum' on transactional use. There is some use, but it is (and always has been) small and declining (I haven't seen actual data but I would guess the decline is simply in line with the declining mania since the 2013 price peak). Maybe it will come, someday, but for now worrying about that or about people having a poor experience because their low fee zero cons transactions don't work very well is a complete waste of time.

Somehow, tx fees rising from 1/8 to 1/4 of a pittance is 'harmful to UX' but catastrophic consensus failure is not.

Mark my words, if Bitcoin's antifragility is overwhelmed by the chaos created by the Gavinista social-engineering putsch, the blame will rest solely upon Hearn, Gavin, and Frap.doc.

They will try to make it MPEX's fault, and the drooling Redditard mob will believe them, because they will be jealous of the profit made from shorting Gavincoins.

Not that I think it's likely.  Luckily, the Gavinista Manifesto is already being mocked and made the subject of ridicule.

If nothing else, poor orphaned BitcoinSX is poised to become a fertile new source of FAIL and REKT memes.   Smiley

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
justusranvier
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July 22, 2015, 10:49:13 PM
 #29206

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"
It doesn't matter.

At all.

This isn't academia - there is no tenure in Bitcoin.

Their position is contingent every single day on their continuing ability to produce new value.

They can choose to embrace that reality, or they can choose to pout about it. Bitcoin will be fine with or without them.
cypherdoc
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July 22, 2015, 11:06:30 PM
 #29207

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"
It doesn't matter.

At all.

This isn't academia - there is no tenure in Bitcoin.

Their position is contingent every single day on their continuing ability to produce new value.

They can choose to embrace that reality, or they can choose to pout about it. Bitcoin will be fine with or without them.

well put JR.  i hadn't even thought about it that way.

and what we absolutely don't want is core dev thinking that Bitcoin "owes them" something.
brg444
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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July 22, 2015, 11:09:01 PM
 #29208

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"
It doesn't matter.

At all.

This isn't academia - there is no tenure in Bitcoin.

Their position is contingent every single day on their continuing ability to produce new value.

They can choose to embrace that reality, or they can choose to pout about it. Bitcoin will be fine with or without them.

well put JR.  i hadn't even thought about it that way.

and what we absolutely don't want is core dev thinking that Bitcoin "owes them" something.

you do know that also goes for Satoshi and Gavin ?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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July 22, 2015, 11:11:48 PM
 #29209

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"
It doesn't matter.

At all.

This isn't academia - there is no tenure in Bitcoin.

Their position is contingent every single day on their continuing ability to produce new value.

They can choose to embrace that reality, or they can choose to pout about it. Bitcoin will be fine with or without them.

well put JR.  i hadn't even thought about it that way.

and what we absolutely don't want is core dev thinking that Bitcoin "owes them" something.

you do know that also goes for Satoshi and Gavin ?

yep.  which is why apparently Satoshi disappeared w/o wanting to remain at the helm and why Gavin is refusing to accept lead core dev responsibility for XT despite being accused endlessly of wanting to be a benevolent dictator.
brg444
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July 22, 2015, 11:13:56 PM
 #29210

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-July/009538.html

Quote
Jeff Garzik jgarzik at gmail.com
Wed Jul 22 22:30:59 UTC 2015
Previous message: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
Next message: [bitcoin-dev] BIP: Short Term Use Addresses for Scalability
Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

....

So I respectfully disagree with "core devs don't control the network" and
"core devs control the network" both.

There are checks-and-balances that make the system work.  Consensus is most
strongly measured by user actions after software release.  If the
developers fail to reflect user consensus, the network will let us know.

Jeff knows damn well he doesn't have network consensus

edit: but yes, this is basically what is going to happen.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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July 23, 2015, 12:53:16 AM
 #29211

gmax thrown under the bus with lotsa upvotes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3e8a4v/jeff_g_throwing_the_hammer_down_today_on_devlist/ctckf5l
Adrian-x
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July 23, 2015, 12:59:07 AM
 #29212




^ Confirmed.

LOL, the Gavinistas are furiously scribbling their little manifesto.  This gonna be good.   Grin

Exactly like the Peoples' Front of Judea (or was it the Judean Peoples' Front?)

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"

I'm grateful to the developers, but this is not about them, I'm also happy that not everyone at central control is part of the heard, everything in this post is good news. if you read that tweet again, it looks like a critique of the mainstream circle jerk.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
iCEBREAKER
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July 23, 2015, 01:37:40 AM
 #29213

LOL, the Gavinistas are furiously scribbling their little manifesto.  This gonna be good.   Grin

Exactly like the Peoples' Front of Judea (or was it the Judean Peoples' Front?)

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"

I'm grateful to the developers, but this is not about them, I'm also happy that not everyone at central control is part of the heard, everything in this post is good news. if you read that tweet again, it looks like a critique of the mainstream circle jerk.

Ah, but BitcoinSX is about the developers.  Specifically, SX's lack of them and predictable GFY response from Team Core when larger blocks break something Gavin failed to account for (like upstream bandwidth being ~order-of-magnitude less than down, or catastrophic consensus failure).

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
cypherdoc
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July 23, 2015, 02:49:53 AM
 #29214

LOL, the Gavinistas are furiously scribbling their little manifesto.  This gonna be good.   Grin

Exactly like the Peoples' Front of Judea (or was it the Judean Peoples' Front?)

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"

I'm grateful to the developers, but this is not about them, I'm also happy that not everyone at central control is part of the heard, everything in this post is good news. if you read that tweet again, it looks like a critique of the mainstream circle jerk.

Ah, but BitcoinSX is about the developers.  Specifically, SX's lack of them and predictable GFY response from Team Core when larger blocks break something Gavin failed to account for (like upstream bandwidth being ~order-of-magnitude less than down, or catastrophic consensus failure).

XT could be an interesting pseudo-test of the thought experiment i've made a coupla times about perhaps Bitcoin needing nothing more than a big enough block size increase with built in upgrades from now until eternity.  or at least until an emergency patch is needed for an extraordinary event. 
NewLiberty
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July 23, 2015, 07:51:29 AM
 #29215

Multiple groups coding to the protocol is likely to be a good development for Bitcoin...  Unless it turns into some red vs blue turf battle, which is a big risk with all the xxxJ personalities.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
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July 23, 2015, 01:24:02 PM
 #29216

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"
It doesn't matter.

At all.

This isn't academia - there is no tenure in Bitcoin.

Their position is contingent every single day on their continuing ability to produce new value.

They can choose to embrace that reality, or they can choose to pout about it. Bitcoin will be fine with or without them.

well put JR.  i hadn't even thought about it that way.

and what we absolutely don't want is core dev thinking that Bitcoin "owes them" something.

you do know that also goes for Satoshi and Gavin ?

Yep, but how to get rid of the "bad actor" core devs that are now clearly trying to push their own agendas and self interests?  Why are they now 'indoctrinated' and unfire-able?  Even Hitler could be said to have added value.

Satoshi clearly didn't have a plan to manage the core devs, or even a code of conduct as it seems.  We need a Bitcoin-equivalent Hippocratic Oath for the core devs, as well as a way to tell them to buzz off.  Maybe the Foundation can get to work on that. Tongue 
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July 23, 2015, 02:30:47 PM
 #29217


Satoshi clearly didn't have a plan to manage the core devs, or even a code of conduct as it seems.  We need a Bitcoin-equivalent Hippocratic Oath for the core devs, as well as a way to tell them to buzz off.  Maybe the Foundation can get to work on that. Tongue 

They signed the Hippocratic Oath equivalent when they joined Blockstream - at least that is what was presented in the media, that they would never hurt bitcoin because of their work contracts.
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July 23, 2015, 02:52:37 PM
 #29218

$DJT doing the next roll:

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July 23, 2015, 02:56:30 PM
 #29219


Satoshi clearly didn't have a plan to manage the core devs, or even a code of conduct as it seems.  We need a Bitcoin-equivalent Hippocratic Oath for the core devs, as well as a way to tell them to buzz off.  Maybe the Foundation can get to work on that. Tongue 

They signed the Hippocratic Oath equivalent when they joined Blockstream - at least that is what was presented in the media, that they would never hurt bitcoin because of their work contracts.

how effective do you expect them to be when they depend on self determination?  how much does money & stock options affect their decision making?  what does talking with your VC investors everyday do to one's view of the world?  since bigger blocks is a no brainer even for SC's & LN, why the delay/stalling?
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July 23, 2015, 02:59:24 PM
 #29220

I wonder if the continuing GLD downtrend (with no near or medium-term end in sight) will spur some goldbugs to jump into BTC as they see it rise while their beloved PM falls. Could be one of the many contributing factors in the inevitable coming BULL run.
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