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News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.14.2  [Torrent].
 
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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1957903 times)
cypherdoc
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July 22, 2015, 05:41:39 PM
 #29161

Garzik just hit it out of the park with this one in response to Wuille:

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

    >Some people have called the prospect of limited block space and the development of a fee market a change in policy compared to the past. I respectfully disagree with that. Bitcoin Core is not running the Bitcoin economy, and its developers have no authority to set its rules. Change in economics is always happening, and should be expected. Worse, intervening in consensus changes would make the ecosystem more dependent on the group taking that decision, not less.


This completely ignores reality, what users have experienced for the past ~6 years.

"Change in economics is always happening" does not begin to approach the scale of the change.

For the entirety of bitcoin's history, absent long blocks and traffic bursts, fee pressure has been largely absent.

Moving to a new economic policy where fee pressure is consistently present is radically different from what users, markets, and software have experienced and lived.

Analysis such as [1][2] and more shows that users will hit a "painful" "wall" and market disruption will occur - eventually settling to a new equilibrium after a period of chaos - when blocks are consistently full.

[1] http://hashingit.com/analysis/34-bitcoin-traffic-bulletin
[2] http://gavinandresen.ninja/why-increasing-the-max-block-size-is-urgent

First, users & market are forced through this period of chaos by "let a fee market develop" as the whole market changes to a radically different economic policy, once the network has never seen before.

Next, when blocks are consistently full, the past consensus was that block size limit will be increased eventually.  What happens at that point?

Answer - Users & market are forced through a second period of chaos and disruption as the fee market is rebooted again by changing the block size limit.

The average user hears a lot of noise on both sides of the block size debate, and really has no idea that the new "let a fee market develop" Bitcoin Core policy is going to raise fees on them.

It is clear that
- "let the fee market develop, Right Now" has not been thought through
- Users are not prepared for a brand new economic policy
- Users are unaware that a brand new economic policy will be foisted upon them

 

    >So to point out what I consider obvious: if Bitcoin requires central control over its rules by a group of developers, it is completely uninteresting to me. Consensus changes should be done using consensus, and the default in case of controversy is no change.


False.

All that has to do be done to change bitcoin to a new economic policy - not seen in the entire 6 year history of bitcoin - is to stonewall work on block size.

Closing size increase PRs and failing to participate in planning for a block size increase accomplishes your stated goal of changing bitcoin to a new economic policy.

"no code change"... changes bitcoin to a brand new economic policy, picking economic winners & losers.  Some businesses will be priced out of bitcoin, etc.

Stonewalling size increase changes is just as much as a Ben Bernanke/FOMC move as increasing the hard limit by hard fork.

 

   > My personal opinion is that we - as a community - should indeed let a fee market develop, and rather sooner than later, and that "kicking the can down the road" is an incredibly dangerous precedent: if we are willing to go through the risk of a hard fork because of a fear of change of economics, then I believe that community is not ready to deal with change at all. And some change is inevitable, at any block size. Again, this does not mean the block size needs to be fixed forever, but its intent should be growing with the evolution of technology, not a panic reaction because a fear of change. But I am not in any position to force this view. I only hope that people don't think a fear of economic change is reason to give up consensus.


Actually you are.

When size increase progress gets frozen out of Bitcoin Core, that just increases the chances that progress must be made through a contentious hard fork.

Further, it increases the market disruption users will experience, as described above.

Think about the users.  Please.

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July 22, 2015, 05:53:52 PM
 #29162

Kicking off on reddit, too.
cypherdoc
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July 22, 2015, 07:00:55 PM
 #29163

interesting.  looks like GavinMike are going to pull the trigger soon:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3e64dk/time_to_end_bitcoin_reliance_on_core_and_end_this/ctce5cu?context=3
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July 22, 2015, 07:19:07 PM
 #29164

CAT doesn't look so good:



and like i said the other day, sub $50 oil here we are!:

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July 22, 2015, 07:39:47 PM
 #29165

Dow -101
cypherdoc
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July 22, 2015, 07:42:26 PM
 #29166

funny as hell.  who dat?:

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July 22, 2015, 08:01:50 PM
 #29167

hdbuck: So they need to have exactly what we have, including the socialism? (Pointing at Greece). And who should give them all that, you? No, let them trade freely, say I.


eh, utlimately i'd argue that Africans need to kick the "white man" out of their continent.
its been too long already they have been spoiled, killed and manipulated by the West/North.

Oh please spare us your anti-industrialist, neo-primitivist, affluent liberal guilt.

The Chinese, having no local version of White Man's Burden or liberal guilt, will make the Africans long for the days of semi-benevolent Christian colonial powers from Europe.

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"   Roll Eyes

The shittiest, most hopeless parts of Africa are exactly the places which have kicked out the white man.  EG Liberia, Zimbabwe, etc.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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July 22, 2015, 08:05:17 PM
 #29168

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.


http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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July 22, 2015, 08:07:03 PM
 #29169

hdbuck: So they need to have exactly what we have, including the socialism? (Pointing at Greece). And who should give them all that, you? No, let them trade freely, say I.


eh, utlimately i'd argue that Africans need to kick the "white man" out of their continent.
its been too long already they have been spoiled, killed and manipulated by the West/North.

Oh please spare us your anti-industrialist, neo-primitivist, affluent liberal guilt.

The Chinese, having no local version of White Man's Burden or liberal guilt, will make the Africans long for the days of semi-benevolent Christian colonial powers from Europe.

"What did the Romans ever done for us?"   Roll Eyes

The shittiest, most hopeless parts of Africa are exactly the places which have kicked out the white man.  EG Liberia, Zimbabwe, etc.

good
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July 22, 2015, 08:13:37 PM
 #29170

foreigners controls both the trade and the regulation.
remember they regulated the slave trade.. Roll Eyes

Nonsense, the slave trade was thriving between tribes (sub-Saharan African and northern/eastern Arabic) millennia before any Euros arrived.

As a matter of fact, it was the Christian Euros who eventually stopped thousands of years of slaving traditions.

I guess you think it was evil pasty-white French people that harnessed the manpower to build the pyramids...  Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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July 22, 2015, 08:19:54 PM
 #29171

foreigners controls both the trade and the regulation.
remember they regulated the slave trade.. Roll Eyes

Nonsense, the slave trade was thriving between tribes (sub-Saharan African and northern/eastern Arabic) millennia before any Euros arrived.

As a matter of fact, it was the Christian Euros who eventually stopped thousands of years of slaving traditions.

I guess you think it was evil pasty-white French people that harnessed the manpower to build the pyramids...  Cheesy


wtf?! being french i would not think so, but yea, whatever you think with your eloquent sociological bs.. like i'd give a dam. Tongue

edit: and oh i almost forgot.. africa needs messi (who needs 4 millions..)

http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/22/report-lionel-messi-paid-4-million-by-gabons-president-to-lay-one-brick/

XD
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July 22, 2015, 08:27:07 PM
 #29172

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.


http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

im just not too concerned about this one. pretty much everyone who has bought bitcoin over the past 2 yrs is even or under water. no point spending them at a loss. Also, the early adopters who could be spending their coins on hotels/etc. realize that "store of value" and "im not selling this low" are still valid reasons not to be spending them yet as well. im also spending my fiat more than bitcoins at the moment. if my net worth jumps another 5-10x, i'm sure i'll start spending them again.  its still a buy and hold imo

 
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July 22, 2015, 08:33:41 PM
 #29173

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.


http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

im just not too concerned about this one. pretty much everyone who has bought bitcoin over the past 2 yrs is even or under water. no point spending them at a loss. Also, the early adopters who could be spending their coins on hotels/etc. realize that "store of value" and "im not selling this low" are still valid reasons not to be spending them yet as well. im also spending my fiat more than bitcoins at the moment. if my net worth jumps another 5-10x, i'm sure i'll start spending them again.  its still a buy and hold imo

 

you just want to make sure we're not getting into a contraction cycle that we can't pull out of.  i'd much rather see us with momentum in the other direction with increasing user base that would undoubtedly drive price.  i don't think there is any shame in wanting higher prices b/c if Bitcoin really is going to be moving around large values then the price needs to be higher so as not to produce too much volatility as $millions cross borders in single tx's for purchases of homes, cars, et. 
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July 22, 2015, 08:47:38 PM
 #29174

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.


http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

im just not too concerned about this one. pretty much everyone who has bought bitcoin over the past 2 yrs is even or under water. no point spending them at a loss. Also, the early adopters who could be spending their coins on hotels/etc. realize that "store of value" and "im not selling this low" are still valid reasons not to be spending them yet as well. im also spending my fiat more than bitcoins at the moment. if my net worth jumps another 5-10x, i'm sure i'll start spending them again.  its still a buy and hold imo

 

Merchant adoption could be non-existant for all I care. Total non-issue.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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July 22, 2015, 08:50:50 PM
 #29175


Nonsense, the slave trade was thriving between tribes (sub-Saharan African and northern/eastern Arabic) millennia before any Euros arrived.

As a matter of fact, it was the Christian Euros who eventually stopped thousands of years of slaving traditions.

I guess you think it was evil pasty-white French people that harnessed the manpower to build the pyramids...  Cheesy


wtf?! being french i would not think so, but yea, whatever you think with your eloquent sociological bs.. like i'd give a dam. Tongue


I know what I'm talking about; you do not.

The "sociological bs" here is entirely of your own creation:
foreigners controls both the trade and the regulation.
remember they regulated the slave trade.. Roll Eyes

You may form your own opinions, but not your own facts.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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July 22, 2015, 09:26:00 PM
 #29176




^ Confirmed.

LOL, the Gavinistas are furiously scribbling their little manifesto.  This gonna be good.   Grin

Exactly like the Peoples' Front of Judea (or was it the Judean Peoples' Front?)

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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July 22, 2015, 09:26:27 PM
 #29177

this really isn't good and is reason for us to want to increase the growth of new users by whatever means necessary:

Despite a decline of approximately 40% in bitcoin purchases, Connie Chung, senior payments product manager at Expedia, says the option to pay with the digital currency will remain as long as there is a demand for it.

Chung noted other merchants had been more affected by what she called a recent decline in bitcoin payments –  with some reporting a decrease of up to 90% at various industry events.

According to the report, the fundamental challenge facing bitcoin as a medium of exchange of legal goods continues to be low consumer adoption and a lack of advantages over credit and debit cards.
[/b]

http://www.coindesk.com/expedia-exec-purchases-with-bitcoin-are-down-40/?utm_content=buffer59a4e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Yeah, I like the way Expedia et al acknowledges this and yet still offers ZERO incentive (e.g., NO discounts) over using a credit card.  Roll Eyes

Also from what I know, they still limit bitcoin to just hotel purchases???
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July 22, 2015, 09:49:02 PM
 #29178

you just want to make sure we're not getting into a contraction cycle that we can't pull out of.  i'd much rather see us with momentum in the other direction with increasing user base that would undoubtedly drive price.

The point is, there is no 'momentum' on transactional use. There is some use, but it is (and always has been) small and is declining (I haven't seen actual data but I would guess the decline is simply in line with the declining mania since the 2013 price peak). Maybe it will come, someday, but for now worrying about that or about people having a poor experience because their low fee zero conf transactions don't work very well is a complete waste of time.

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July 22, 2015, 10:06:24 PM
 #29179

you just want to make sure we're not getting into a contraction cycle that we can't pull out of.  i'd much rather see us with momentum in the other direction with increasing user base that would undoubtedly drive price.

The point is, there is no 'momentum' on transactional use. There is some use, but it is (and always has been) small and declining (I haven't seen actual data but I would guess the decline is simply in line with the declining mania since the 2013 price peak). Maybe it will come, someday, but for now worrying about that or about people having a poor experience because their low fee zero cons transactions don't work very well is a complete waste of time.

Somehow, tx fees rising from 1/8 to 1/4 of a pittance is 'harmful to UX' but catastrophic consensus failure is not.

Mark my words, if Bitcoin's antifragility is overwhelmed by the chaos created by the Gavinista social-engineering putsch, the blame will rest solely upon Hearn, Gavin, and Frap.doc.

They will try to make it MPEX's fault, and the drooling Redditard mob will believe them, because they will be jealous of the profit made from shorting Gavincoins.

Not that I think it's likely.  Luckily, the Gavinista Manifesto is already being mocked and made the subject of ridicule.

If nothing else, poor orphaned BitcoinSX is poised to become a fertile new source of FAIL and REKT memes.   Smiley

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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July 22, 2015, 10:49:13 PM
 #29180

"What have the core devs ever done for us?"
It doesn't matter.

At all.

This isn't academia - there is no tenure in Bitcoin.

Their position is contingent every single day on their continuing ability to produce new value.

They can choose to embrace that reality, or they can choose to pout about it. Bitcoin will be fine with or without them.
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