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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2009952 times)
sgbett
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July 29, 2015, 09:21:33 PM
 #29481

The introduction of sidechains, LN and whatever other solutions is a complicated solution. It's also a solution motivated by a desire to fix a perceived economic issue, rather than sticking to the very simple issue at hand. It is the very opposite of what you are claiming to be important, that software should be kept simple.

That is a contradiction.

The simple solution is to remove the artificial cap. A cap that was put in place to prevent DDOS.

Your reference of CVE-2013-2292 is just distraction. It is a separate issue, one that exists now and would continue to exists with a larger block size.

Bloating Layer 1 is a complicated solution; scaling at Level 2+ is an elegant one.

You still don't understand Tannenbaum's maxim.  Its point isn't 'keep software simple FOREVER NO MATTER WHAT.'  That is your flawed simpleton's interpretation.

"Fighting features" means ensuring a positive trade-off in terms of security and reliability, instead of carelessly and recklessly heaping on additional functionality without the benefit of an adversarial process which tests their quality and overall impact.

One does not simply "remove the artificial cap."  You may have noticed some degree of controversy in regard to that proposal.  Bitcoin is designed to strenuously resist (IE fight) hard forks.  Perhaps you were thinking of WishGrantingUnicornCoin, which leaps into action the moment anyone has an idea and complies with their ingenious plan for whatever feature or change they desire.

Like DoS, CVE-2013-2292, as an issue that exists now, is fairly successfully mitigated by the 1MB cap.  It is not a separate concern because larger blocks exacerbate the problem in a superlinear manner.  You don't get to advocate 8MB blocks, but then wave your hands around eschewing responsibility when confronted with the immediate entailment of purposefully constructed 8MB tx taking 64 times longer to process than a 1MB one.  The issue is intrinsic to larger blocks, which is why Gavin proposed a 100k max tx size be married to any block size increase.

Fully parsed, what you are claiming is

Quote
The simple solution is to remove the artificial cap hard fork Bitcoin.

Do you realize how naive that makes you look?

If you truly understood your own position then you would argue it instead of just railing at people who might have an opposing view. Call me some more names, it's really helping the credibility of your argument.

What *is* bloat? (apart from the intentional choice of hyperbolic word). Can you put a value on what is considered bloated? Can you confidently say that your idea of what constitute bloat is some world wide standard?

You put words in my mouth, then claim those invented words make me look stupid. In fact this only serves to make you look even more desperate. if I didn't understand the maxim, I would not be able to point out just how incoherent your thought process must be if you are attempting to equate feature-set with size-of-data. I understand the difference between feature-set and data-size, do you? I'll bet you do. So, don't even for one second pretend you think that systems with more data are inherently more complex than systems with less data.

Do you truly believe they are the same thing or are you again being disingenuous in order to try and maintain your tenuous argument that effectively 'changing a config setting' is somehow more complicated than developing a whole new platform and all the interfaces necessary to communicate.

Its about as elegant as your debating skill....

Fully parsed your argument against Gavin's fix for CVE-2013-2292 seems to be, don't do it because it increases complexity. Again disingenuous or actually not very smart?

Then finally you try to create further confusion between the feature-set of software vs its deployment. To be clear, what is being kept simple is the software. I'm interested to know though just exactly what it is that is complex about the hard fork. I can think of other words that might apply - contentious, unpredictable even undesirable - depending on your viewpoint - but not complex. You put the new release up, and those that want it deploy it. Those that don't do not.

Interestingly those words that apply to the hard fork, could quite easily be used to describe intentionally restricting transaction growth by refusing to update the max block size. So in that respect both 'solutions' are equal.

In another very important respect, they are not equal. Releasing a version of bitcoin core with an increased block size allows for true consensus from the user base. Refusing to do so, is enforcing the view of some core-devs. That's what is despicable.

Thankfully in time, once the details have been ironed out and devs eventually accept some form of block size increase schedule (and they will, however much you cling to your delusion) the hard fork can happen in core, and then the miners can have the final say in what goes forward. If everyone sticks on 1MB coin then you get your wish! I'll send you a cookie, iced with the words "Well done you!".

I think though, that is what you are terrified of. That you know there is actually no way in hell the block size will stay at 1MB, but you are so married to your position that you can't let go and will say anything to defend it. It comes across in your posts.

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nby
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July 29, 2015, 09:28:29 PM
 #29482




Now its Frap.doc's turn to get rekt:

Piling every proof-of-work quorum system in the world into one dataset doesn't scale.

Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.


 Cheesy

You should keep in mind this while posting.

Maybe then you would take a full quote of a post, instead of just extracting a part out of its context in order to prove your point.

BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

But I guess that intellectual honesty has never been your goal here
Odalv
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July 29, 2015, 09:28:44 PM
 #29483

how does it not correlate with my theory?  yours is just a long term zoom out of the hashrate which obscures the shorter effect of the stress test.

I think, everybody can see that the hashrate is growing. No matter if there is "stress test" or not.

And it is obvious that bitcoin price was $318 during the time you took days off.
inca
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July 29, 2015, 09:33:31 PM
 #29484




Now its Frap.doc's turn to get rekt:

Piling every proof-of-work quorum system in the world into one dataset doesn't scale.

Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.


 Cheesy

You should keep in mind this while posting.

Maybe then you would take a full quote of a post, instead of just extracting a part out of its context in order to prove your point.

BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

But I guess that intellectual honesty has never been your goal here

Haha. Brilliant!! Smiley
thezerg
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July 29, 2015, 09:35:29 PM
 #29485

decision to force a fee market is a centralized solution

On it's face this is a nonsense argument since any development decisions are centralized in the same manner.

Increase the blocksize, decrease the blocksize, or leave it alone, they are all (centralized) development decisions.

It's also false that anything is really centralized about it because if there were truly a consensus for change (over the objections of the 'centralized' developers) there would be a successful fork.


Yes all dev decisions are essentially centralized, including the decision to NOT do something.  Since that is trivially true, I am talking about the effect of the decision.  And in one case miners can optimize their profitability by choosing to include transactions while in another case they are artificially limited.

Listen to New Liberty, he got this completely right. Whether miners can optimize their profitability is beside the point, because in doing so they also influence others' costs, and they are most certainly not optimizing that.

The idea of a sensible market arising for block size in the current structure if the consensus block size rule (which is the only mechanism for the "others" in the previous paragraph to participate in such a market) is a fantasy.


You are correct to question whether the incentives for miners coincides with what is optimal for the rest of the network.  As we see with empty blocks and non-validated blocks these can differ.  However, your assumption that these do not coincide whatsoever is unsupported.  And with Bitcoin it is all we have, barring some centralized committee making arbitrary decisions like we have today with the core devs.  Personally, I believe that miner incentive is a reflection of optimal network use, if not 100% the same.  For example, a miner who mines a bunch of "spam" txns knows that he must store it for eternity, just like all the other nodes.

A better example is the worry that a miner will include a txn that takes 10+ minutes to validate.  It is dangerous to build on a block that can't be readily validated.  So a miner that includes one could expect that the majority hashing power would NOT move to that block, even though it may be the longest in the chain.  The "fittest" miner will mine 2 blocks in the time it takes others to validate this one and mine the next.  That need only happen once or twice to teach the rest of the network a valuable lesson.  

So miners will evolve to be tweaking their algorithms to eliminate "crazy junk" (unless that junk is sufficiently incentivized with a large txn fee -- and if someone is willing to pay a lot for it, who are we to decide that its not important... that's the free market at work) and even include "human assist" systems to optimize decisions like these.  We may get a few "natural" forks longer than just one or 2 blocks as miners choose different strategies but that is just part of the natural behavior of the core consensus algorithm.  All of this can be done without changing consensus.

cypherdoc
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July 29, 2015, 09:38:48 PM
 #29486

how does it not correlate with my theory?  yours is just a long term zoom out of the hashrate which obscures the shorter effect of the stress test.

I think, everybody can see that the hashrate is growing. No matter if there is "stress test" or not.

And it is obvious that bitcoin price was $318 during the time you took days off.

Haha Odalv:

Quote

You should keep in mind this while posting.

But I guess that intellectual honesty has never been your goal here
Odalv
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July 29, 2015, 09:41:18 PM
 #29487

Quote
Quote
how does it not correlate with my theory?  yours is just a long term zoom out of the hashrate which obscures the shorter effect of the stress test.

I think, everybody can see that the hashrate is growing. No matter if there is "stress test" or not.

And it is obvious that bitcoin price was $318 during the time you took days off.

Haha Odalv:


You should keep in mind this while posting.

Maybe then you would take a full quote of a post, instead of just extracting a part out of its context in order to prove your point.

BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

But I guess that intellectual honesty has never been your goal here

Huh


edit:
are you on drugs ?
cypherdoc
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July 29, 2015, 09:43:45 PM
 #29488

how does it not correlate with my theory?  yours is just a long term zoom out of the hashrate which obscures the shorter effect of the stress test.

I think, everybody can see that the hashrate is growing. No matter if there is "stress test" or not.

And it is obvious that bitcoin price was $318 during the time you took days off.

Haha Odalv:


You should keep in mind this while posting.

Maybe then you would take a full quote of a post, instead of just extracting a part out of its context in order to prove your point.

BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

But I guess that intellectual honesty has never been your goal here
[/quote]

Huh


edit:
are you on drugs ?
[/quote]

Fixed. Troll.
Odalv
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July 29, 2015, 09:47:10 PM
 #29489

Quote
Quote
how does it not correlate with my theory?  yours is just a long term zoom out of the hashrate which obscures the shorter effect of the stress test.

I think, everybody can see that the hashrate is growing. No matter if there is "stress test" or not.

And it is obvious that bitcoin price was $318 during the time you took days off.

Haha Odalv:


You should keep in mind this while posting.

Maybe then you would take a full quote of a post, instead of just extracting a part out of its context in order to prove your point.

BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

But I guess that intellectual honesty has never been your goal here

Huh


edit:
are you on drugs ?

Fixed. Troll.
really ?
iCEBREAKER
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July 29, 2015, 09:52:57 PM
 #29490


Now its Frap.doc's turn to get rekt:

Piling every proof-of-work quorum system in the world into one dataset doesn't scale.

Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.


 Cheesy

You should keep in mind this while posting.

Maybe then you would take a full quote of a post, instead of just extracting a part out of its context in order to prove your point.

BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

But I guess that intellectual honesty has never been your goal here

"Extracting?"  What an interesting word choice.   Roll Eyes

You make it sound like I put Satoshi's quote through some kind of violent mechanical processing, instead of the commonplace practice of editing for clarity and brevity.  But we all understand your goal here is to impute and exaggerate my intellectual dishonesty, in order to distract from the larger issue of why Team Gavinista is losing the Bitcoin Civil War.

The BitDNS discussion was not germane and thus excluded.  A link to the full text of the primary source was provided.


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Odalv
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July 29, 2015, 10:01:14 PM
 #29491

Quote
Quote
how does it not correlate with my theory?  yours is just a long term zoom out of the hashrate which obscures the shorter effect of the stress test.

I think, everybody can see that the hashrate is growing. No matter if there is "stress test" or not.

And it is obvious that bitcoin price was $318 during the time you took days off.

Haha Odalv:


You should keep in mind this while posting.

Maybe then you would take a full quote of a post, instead of just extracting a part out of its context in order to prove your point.

BitDNS users might be completely liberal about adding any large data features since relatively few domain registrars are needed, while Bitcoin users might get increasingly tyrannical about limiting the size of the chain so it's easy for lots of users and small devices.

But I guess that intellectual honesty has never been your goal here

Huh


edit:
are you on drugs ?

Fixed. Troll.

Do you pay shills ? Adrian-x and Rocks looks like children who can enjoy wooden toy train.
cypherdoc
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July 29, 2015, 10:01:29 PM
 #29492

Gmax finally getting the treatment he deserves:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3f26b7/thank_you_mike_hearn_for_sticking_up_for_us_this/
cypherdoc
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July 29, 2015, 10:06:21 PM
 #29493

It's coming soon:

https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt/pull/22
Wexlike
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July 29, 2015, 10:08:59 PM
 #29494


Extremely good reply, that is exactly my thinking when it comes to the blocksize debate.

The best quote imho:

Quote
If Satoshi had said from the start,

"Bitcoin cannot ever scale. So I intend it to be heavily limited and used only by a handful of people for rare transactions. I picked 1mb as an arbitrary limit to ensure it never gets popular."

... then I'd have not bothered getting involved. I'd have said, huh, I don't really feel like putting effort into a system that is intended to NOT be popular. And so would many other people.
cypherdoc
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July 29, 2015, 10:10:09 PM
 #29495


To all the talented devs out there reading this thread, here's your chance to be a part of the new XT core team.
Odalv
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July 29, 2015, 10:13:29 PM
 #29496


I'll bet that 8-20 MB block-chain will not last more than few hours.
nby
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July 29, 2015, 10:14:45 PM
 #29497



"Extracting?"  What an interesting word choice.   Roll Eyes

You make it sound like I put Satoshi's quote through some kind of violent mechanical processing, instead of the commonplace practice of editing for clarity and brevity.  But we all understand your goal here is to impute and exaggerate my intellectual dishonesty, in order to distract from the larger issue of why Team Gavinista is losing the Bitcoin Civil War.

The BitDNS discussion was not germane and thus excluded.  A link to the full text of the primary source was provided.

WRT my choice of word, guess what ? English is not my native language. Are you going to pick on me for this ?

But you know what ? I think that I like the image you are referring to. It conveys exactly the idea of what you are doing with that quote: you squash and grind its content, keeping only what you are interested in and discarding what you can't use.

WRT the "Bitcoin Civil War", keep on dreaming. If you think that "you" will be able to stop people from running the code they think will suit their needs, be my guest
smooth
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July 29, 2015, 10:24:04 PM
 #29498

You are correct to question whether the incentives for miners coincides with what is optimal for the rest of the network.  As we see with empty blocks and non-validated blocks these can differ.  However, your assumption that these do not coincide whatsoever is unsupported.  And with Bitcoin it is all we have, barring some centralized committee making arbitrary decisions like we have today with the core devs.

Bitcoin has consensus rules. You may view that as being something decided by a central committee (in a sense that is true because the consensus rules are encoded in the software) or alternately, as something decided by the consensus of users who run the software (in deciding whether to use a modified version), but either way there is nothing improper about those consensus rules including a block size limit just as they include other limits, for example, the maximum allowable size of scripts, which op codes can be used at all, whether coins can be created out of thin air, etc.

By your argument the consensus rules should be removed and miners can just include whatever they want. After all, miners won''t want to include anything that other miners wan't want to build on, so the whole thing is entirely self-enforcing. Maybe that sort of a coin would work, but it isn't Bitcoin at all. It's very close to a greenfield redesign.

Bitcoin by its nature includes consensus rules that are enforced by all users, not just miners.
smooth
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July 29, 2015, 10:29:02 PM
 #29499


I score this for Mike.

He's made a strong case for what the original vision was, and maybe from the perspective of "social contract" that should be kept regardless of whether it is viewed as the "best thing" for Bitcoin. Obviously opinions strongly differ on the latter, and maybe that has to do with the context of us now living in a post-Snowden era which didn't exist when that "original vision" was defined. But the argument against the original vision being nodes all in data centers, most people using SPV, etc. is getting very thin.

Still, that's not really the point. If the original vision is unconstrained growth, and the argument is that the original vision should not be violated, then let it be, security issues or otherwise.
justusranvier
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July 29, 2015, 10:51:06 PM
 #29500

He's made a strong case for what the original vision was, and maybe from the perspective of "social contract" that should be kept regardless of whether it is viewed as the "best thing" for Bitcoin. Obviously opinions strongly differ on the latter, and maybe that has to do with the context of us now living in a post-Snowden era which didn't exist when that "original vision" was defined. But the argument against the original vision being nodes all in data centers, most people using SPV, etc. is getting very thin.
There are security challenges with a network consisting mostly of light nodes.

Why aren't more people talking about ways to address them rather than using their existence as an excuse to prevent progress?
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