Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[marcus_of_augustus]

satoshi was "Another" in another life.

[1714206300]

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[1714206300]

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[cypherdoc]

looks like Buttercoin bites the dust.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2dda3y/buttercoin_project_owners_remove_entire/

[manfred]

death spiral, baby. death spiral.

there will only be one:

Trentline is still way up

[cypherdoc]

a visit to God's country:

[xcrabber]

a visit to God's country:

https://i.imgur.com/eqvJcqE.jpg

The calm before the storm

[smoothie]

death spiral, baby. death spiral.

there will only be one:

There is no doubt Bitcoin will be #1. But to say there will be only 1 is somewhat in denial. The free-market can create other options.

Usually free markets there are choices and not just one as there will be arbitrage opportunities. If people want to sell BTC they dont have to sell for fiat and instead another crypto to keep it outside of the broken financial system.

Litecoin is down but I suspect it will be back...time will tell. This is from a person who was buying LTC at half a penny so this cycle is nothing new to me.

Bitcoin up, Litecoin down, Gold....who cares lol  

maybe, but:

i think the most important financial dynamic going on in the world today is Bitcoin vs Gold.  yes, there’s a component of Bitcoin vs Fiat but gold has always been the real money of centuries past.  the pure fiat game has only been around since 1971.  that is why i was a goldbug from 2005 to 2011 and why i started the gold threads:  Gold: I Smell a Trap and this one.  while the Keynesian’s and major CB’s would never admit that gold still plays any importance on the world stage, actions speak louder than words.  otherwise, why would India, China, and Russia continue to stock gold?  why would the Fed continue to spend millions on fortified storage facilities to stockpile what little they have left? we know that at some level, they covet it. unfortunately for CB’s, they’ve never been very good at calling markets ala Gordon Brown in 2000 selling off the UK’s gold followed by the others for much of the noughts.   enter gold’s Black Swan, Bitcoin.

i’m also surprised at how short memories are.  we’ve already kicked out 4.5/5 legs of the precious metal story:

1.  Silver:  remember how all the silver bugs like Eric Sprott and Max Keiser promised us that silver would lead the gold to massive new highs?  while gold was supposed to go to $35000, silver would head to $200 or something like that?  simply enough, Bitcoin did a Slingshot Effect-cypherdoc past silver easily in the Spring of 2013.  effortlessly, like a knife thru butter.  and yet goldbugs fail to understand/remember its significance.  what bigger a red flag to wave that Bitcoin is superior to metals?  Bitcoin has already been Silver’s Black Swan. no one in their right mind thinks silver will ever catch Bitcoin at this point.  this is an important clue to the big picture.  this is also why i don’t like Litecoin; we don’t need or want a Bitcoin’s silver.  Litecoin is doing a death spiral right now. imo, the only reason silver became a form of money in the first place was b/c of the high amount of friction in pm’s.  gold has a limited form of divisibility despite what you’ve been told.
2.  Miners:  oh Lordy.  this sector has been wiped out on it’s own merit, however, when compared to the performance of Bitcoin, it’s been a complete disaster.  i also think Bitcoin played a big part in that; look at the for sale of the recent gold mine for Bitcoin.  remember how miscreanity used to argue vociferously that miners were the ultimate leverage play on gold/silver itself?  how’s that turned out?  disastrously.  pay close attention to that excellent analysis as to the environmental and USD costs of pm mining.  that is unsustainable and undesirable.  http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-true-costs-gold-production/
3.  Gold itself:  did you all forget that Satoshi dared to touch the face of gold in price last November?  what did that tell us?  answer: a hell of a lot. i dare say that the next time Satoshi touches gold it will be with his fist thru the face of gold’s price.  we should get another Slingshot Effect-cypherdoc as the world realizes what the implications of Bitcoin will be.  that event should re-establish the logarithmic Bitcoin ramp we’ve seen in years past.  the seed of doubt in the minds of goldbugs has been planted and it will continue to blossom.
4.5.  we’re seeing one after another of former staunch gold bugs convert:  Turk, Schiff, Rogers, and possibly Casey and Rickards.  the momentum is clear.  they will be running to Bitcoin soon.

i think that Bitcoin blowing thru silver, like it did, is saying that at least when it comes to metals, we don't need 2.

yes, i am extrapolating that to the cryptocurrency market, perhaps unfairly, but LTC isn't getting any merchant traction and the long slow price slide has got to be concerning.

The metric of comparison of Bitcoin and Litecoin in my view should be in terms of life span and milestones on the timeline since inception. To compare Bitcoin to Litecoin, as an example, is like comparing someone like Bill Gates who has had lots of time and experience to make his Billions as opposed to a newly made 18 yr old millionaire. You really can't compare them like that to call it a fair comparison in my opinion.

Think about it...

Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?

I think you will find some very particular similarities between the two.

The arbitrage part I talked about where instead of keeping USD on an exchange you can trade for another crypto and withdraw that immediately. As someone who has used exchanges...keeping USD or any other fiat on an exchange is disconcerting and would prefer another means to withdraw that would not be tied into the broken financial system.

the Austrian theory of money calls for one commodity to rise to the level of money in any society.  that commodity being the one that is most useful in terms of durability, divisibility, portability, fungibility, and scarcity.  gold filled this role for thousands of years.  imo, silver was only used b/c gold really doesn't fulfill all the above properties very well b/c of it's physicality; too heavy, not really transportable in bulk, counterfeit-able, really not divisible in a practical sense, not really scarce with 1.5-2% additive supply and perhaps more with new sources (deep ocean, asteroids, chemical synthesis).  metals are just a high friction way of transacting.  an ugly hack.

why should anything be any different in cryptocurrencies?  sure, i suppose a Litecoin could survive but there really is no need for it.  ppl like simplicity and security.  having multiple alts confuses the issue.  i think the network of money will be a zero sum game over the long term.  i understand the use cases you cite above for traders but will those be enough to sustain a Litecoin network over time?  personally, i have my doubts.

You perhaps are right that it isn't "needed". But since when do needs trump wants in today's speculative world?

Having multiple payment processors wasn't a bad idea to move fiat around the world. I can see there being space for more than one cryptocurrency given some people will want faster confirmations. Not to mention I've seen personally investors say "Bitcoin looks pricey, hey let me buy something that is secure and is much cheaper". That is a psychological issue there as some people might feel better holding 10,000 LTC as opposed to 1 BTC.

I agree, the network of money will be a zero sum game over the long term. Something tells me we got a long way to go before that zero sum comes into play as "value" and fiat get exchanged back and forth between bitcoin, litecoin, and other "valuables" over time. Bitcoin and alts have a lot of soaking up to do to account for all of the fiat that has been created around the world and is currently being created around the world.

I guess the question is at what point is enough alts enough? Honestly it is ridiculous how many exist to date but then again it reminds me of the 90's when the internet was growing/booming.

[Trader Steve]

death spiral, baby. death spiral.

there will only be one:

There is no doubt Bitcoin will be #1. But to say there will be only 1 is somewhat in denial. The free-market can create other options.

Usually free markets there are choices and not just one as there will be arbitrage opportunities. If people want to sell BTC they dont have to sell for fiat and instead another crypto to keep it outside of the broken financial system.

Litecoin is down but I suspect it will be back...time will tell. This is from a person who was buying LTC at half a penny so this cycle is nothing new to me.

Bitcoin up, Litecoin down, Gold....who cares lol  

maybe, but:

i think the most important financial dynamic going on in the world today is Bitcoin vs Gold.  yes, there’s a component of Bitcoin vs Fiat but gold has always been the real money of centuries past.  the pure fiat game has only been around since 1971.  that is why i was a goldbug from 2005 to 2011 and why i started the gold threads:  Gold: I Smell a Trap and this one.  while the Keynesian’s and major CB’s would never admit that gold still plays any importance on the world stage, actions speak louder than words.  otherwise, why would India, China, and Russia continue to stock gold?  why would the Fed continue to spend millions on fortified storage facilities to stockpile what little they have left? we know that at some level, they covet it. unfortunately for CB’s, they’ve never been very good at calling markets ala Gordon Brown in 2000 selling off the UK’s gold followed by the others for much of the noughts.   enter gold’s Black Swan, Bitcoin.

i’m also surprised at how short memories are.  we’ve already kicked out 4.5/5 legs of the precious metal story:

1.  Silver:  remember how all the silver bugs like Eric Sprott and Max Keiser promised us that silver would lead the gold to massive new highs?  while gold was supposed to go to $35000, silver would head to $200 or something like that?  simply enough, Bitcoin did a Slingshot Effect-cypherdoc past silver easily in the Spring of 2013.  effortlessly, like a knife thru butter.  and yet goldbugs fail to understand/remember its significance.  what bigger a red flag to wave that Bitcoin is superior to metals?  Bitcoin has already been Silver’s Black Swan. no one in their right mind thinks silver will ever catch Bitcoin at this point.  this is an important clue to the big picture.  this is also why i don’t like Litecoin; we don’t need or want a Bitcoin’s silver.  Litecoin is doing a death spiral right now. imo, the only reason silver became a form of money in the first place was b/c of the high amount of friction in pm’s.  gold has a limited form of divisibility despite what you’ve been told.
2.  Miners:  oh Lordy.  this sector has been wiped out on it’s own merit, however, when compared to the performance of Bitcoin, it’s been a complete disaster.  i also think Bitcoin played a big part in that; look at the for sale of the recent gold mine for Bitcoin.  remember how miscreanity used to argue vociferously that miners were the ultimate leverage play on gold/silver itself?  how’s that turned out?  disastrously.  pay close attention to that excellent analysis as to the environmental and USD costs of pm mining.  that is unsustainable and undesirable.  http://www.coindesk.com/microscope-true-costs-gold-production/
3.  Gold itself:  did you all forget that Satoshi dared to touch the face of gold in price last November?  what did that tell us?  answer: a hell of a lot. i dare say that the next time Satoshi touches gold it will be with his fist thru the face of gold’s price.  we should get another Slingshot Effect-cypherdoc as the world realizes what the implications of Bitcoin will be.  that event should re-establish the logarithmic Bitcoin ramp we’ve seen in years past.  the seed of doubt in the minds of goldbugs has been planted and it will continue to blossom.
4.5.  we’re seeing one after another of former staunch gold bugs convert:  Turk, Schiff, Rogers, and possibly Casey and Rickards.  the momentum is clear.  they will be running to Bitcoin soon.

i think that Bitcoin blowing thru silver, like it did, is saying that at least when it comes to metals, we don't need 2.

yes, i am extrapolating that to the cryptocurrency market, perhaps unfairly, but LTC isn't getting any merchant traction and the long slow price slide has got to be concerning.

The metric of comparison of Bitcoin and Litecoin in my view should be in terms of life span and milestones on the timeline since inception. To compare Bitcoin to Litecoin, as an example, is like comparing someone like Bill Gates who has had lots of time and experience to make his Billions as opposed to a newly made 18 yr old millionaire. You really can't compare them like that to call it a fair comparison in my opinion.

Think about it...

Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?

I think you will find some very particular similarities between the two.

The arbitrage part I talked about where instead of keeping USD on an exchange you can trade for another crypto and withdraw that immediately. As someone who has used exchanges...keeping USD or any other fiat on an exchange is disconcerting and would prefer another means to withdraw that would not be tied into the broken financial system.

the Austrian theory of money calls for one commodity to rise to the level of money in any society.  that commodity being the one that is most useful in terms of durability, divisibility, portability, fungibility, and scarcity.  gold filled this role for thousands of years.  imo, silver was only used b/c gold really doesn't fulfill all the above properties very well b/c of it's physicality; too heavy, not really transportable in bulk, counterfeit-able, really not divisible in a practical sense, not really scarce with 1.5-2% additive supply and perhaps more with new sources (deep ocean, asteroids, chemical synthesis).  metals are just a high friction way of transacting.  an ugly hack.

why should anything be any different in cryptocurrencies?  sure, i suppose a Litecoin could survive but there really is no need for it.  ppl like simplicity and security.  having multiple alts confuses the issue.  i think the network of money will be a zero sum game over the long term.  i understand the use cases you cite above for traders but will those be enough to sustain a Litecoin network over time?  personally, i have my doubts.

You perhaps are right that it isn't "needed". But since when do needs trump wants in today's speculative world?

Having multiple payment processors wasn't a bad idea to move fiat around the world. I can see there being space for more than one cryptocurrency given some people will want faster confirmations. Not to mention I've seen personally investors say "Bitcoin looks pricey, hey let me buy something that is secure and is much cheaper". That is a psychological issue there as some people might feel better holding 10,000 LTC as opposed to 1 BTC.

I agree, the network of money will be a zero sum game over the long term. Something tells me we got a long way to go before that zero sum comes into play as "value" and fiat get exchanged back and forth between bitcoin, litecoin, and other "valuables" over time. Bitcoin and alts have a lot of soaking up to do to account for all of the fiat that has been created around the world and is currently being created around the world.

I guess the question is at what point is enough alts enough? Honestly it is ridiculous how many exist to date but then again it reminds me of the 90's when the internet was growing/booming.

I think that if Litecoin has any value it is more as a result of the potential to "clean" bitcoins versus "faster confirmation times." Whether or not this feature is sustainable in the long term will be determined by whether or not bitcoin improves anonymity. The simple fact that "value is subjective" could keep altcoins alive for quite some time although their utility will be severely limited. Case in point: Ithaca Hours

[STT]

the only reason silver became a form of money in the first place was b/c of the high amount of friction in pm’s.  gold has a limited form of divisibility despite what you’ve been told.

Last thing you want to do is make an argument that puts you on the same side as Federal reserve, silver has been currency of some kind for thousands of years.   Sterling or uk pounds is a reference to sterling silver, we're going back over a thousand years just on that reference.  We've only just removed silver coins from circulation just after ww2 yet now the lesson taken was it was never needed    So a logic used now is to dismiss a trend formed over millennia to favour exclusively the idea of just paper notes, its just arrogant and dismissive and very likely wrong or self biased in many ways.

For whatever reason two tiers to a currency is not a one off occurrence in history, its easily possible bitcoin does have a minor to its major.     Gold can be split into a leaf that will float on the wind and cost a dollar each, bitcoin is more practicable in that quantity

[vuduchyld]

looks like Buttercoin bites the dust.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2dda3y/buttercoin_project_owners_remove_entire/

How will we remember the Buttercoin era?

[bitrider]

I've never had much interest in LTC. Bought some to speculate with but got bored and sold back to BTC long ago. I think it is likely we will see 1-3 alts survive/thrive in addition to BTC, but I believe they will have to embody unique features (anonymity, etc) that clearly differentiate from BTC. LTC is basically just a clone, and significantly less secure. Why would I use it again

[bitrider]

here's one i was going to pass over.  another old dude that gets it.  he actually taught me something:

"Capitalism is deflationary".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9hb0EKAcro&feature=youtu.be

Don't make me go there.

Too late...
"Time is deflationary." - NL

Definitely worth the time for me...thanks for the link...

[Adrian-x]

the only reason silver became a form of money in the first place was b/c of the high amount of friction in pm’s.  gold has a limited form of divisibility despite what you’ve been told.

Last thing you want to do is make an argument that puts you on the same side as Federal reserve, silver has been currency of some kind for thousands of years.   Sterling or uk pounds is a reference to sterling silver, we're going back over a thousand years just on that reference.  We've only just removed silver coins from circulation just after ww2 yet now the lesson taken was it was never needed    So a logic used now is to dismiss a trend formed over millennia to favour exclusively the idea of just paper notes, its just arrogant and dismissive and very likely wrong or self biased in many ways.

For whatever reason two tiers to a currency is not a one off occurrence in history, its easily possible bitcoin does have a minor to its major.     Gold can be split into a leaf that will float on the wind and cost a dollar each, bitcoin is more practicable in that quantity

This debate makes me feel so bullish, ultimately it isn't Bitcoin second to anything, but what's second to Bitcoin.

I do understand there is an historical president for 2 currencies, Historically if a colonial power were to corner the market in say gold, and leverage taxes in that medium, then one would expect the colonies to switch to a more functional currency say silver, and if the situation gets intolerable we'll expect a tea party.  

I imagine a seconds alt, LTC probably isn't it, may appear to challenge Bitcoin should Bitcoins monetary velocity slow to a concerning crawl, while transactions diminish. But without the driving economic conditions, it isn't predictable.  Bitcoin will in my estimation always be the single highest value ledger.

If my thinking is correct, on the next upswing, we should expect the Bitcoin network to expand relatively consistently correlated with Metcalf's law.

I can imagine a scenario where we'll see low velocity (below average days destroyed before the correction) and transaction volume that isn't correlated with the upswing in price. In this scenario I would draw a historic analogy between gold and silver leading up the American Revolution.

The predicted result would be a huge spike in the value of alts relative to the growth in price of Bitcoin. It'll be great if you have alts, but they'll crash much hard after Bitcoin corrects, and that saying by cypherdoc: paraphrasing "most will lose money during this transition to Bitcoin" will ring loud and true.

[molecular]

Think about it...

Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?

I think you will find some very particular similarities between the two.

I think the assumption that litecoin would take the same development path as bitcoin is quite a stretch, tbh.

[molecular]

ouch! That's a 20% drop in 2 days.

[bassclef]

Think about it...

Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?

I think you will find some very particular similarities between the two.

I think the assumption that litecoin would take the same development path as bitcoin is quite a stretch, tbh.

Retailers are beginning to accept it, for one. Not many but a few. I was browsing a great electronics site yesterday (can't remember the name) that accepted both BTC & LTC. Very well designed, professional site.

[smoothie]

Think about it...

Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?

I think you will find some very particular similarities between the two.

I think the assumption that litecoin would take the same development path as bitcoin is quite a stretch, tbh.

That wasn't the implication. The honest scale of comparison was what I was addressing, even though the price movements are somewhat similar.

[boumalo]

Think about it...

Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?

I think you will find some very particular similarities between the two.

I think the assumption that litecoin would take the same development path as bitcoin is quite a stretch, tbh.

Retailers are beginning to accept it, for one. Not many but a few. I was browsing a great electronics site yesterday (can't remember the name) that accepted both BTC & LTC. Very well designed, professional site.

You don't see businesses stoping to accept bitcoins but you see new businesses starting to accept it; the technology is superior to what exists and safer and the western financial system will be hit hard with most fiat currencies showing their inherent weaknesses for everyone to see so Bitcoin will gain value

[marcus_of_augustus]

bitcoin down, gold up?

[bucktotal]

bitcoin down, gold up?

ya i think gold has gone from about 1200 to 1300 this yr... bitcoin from about 1200 to 500

[sidhujag]

Think about it...

Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?

I think you will find some very particular similarities between the two.

I think the assumption that litecoin would take the same development path as bitcoin is quite a stretch, tbh.

Retailers are beginning to accept it, for one. Not many but a few. I was browsing a great electronics site yesterday (can't remember the name) that accepted both BTC & LTC. Very well designed, professional site.

You don't see businesses stoping to accept bitcoins but you see new businesses starting to accept it; the technology is superior to what exists and safer and the western financial system will be hit hard with most fiat currencies showing their inherent weaknesses for everyone to see so Bitcoin will gain value

I think we are already passed that.. talking about ltc now.