[XMR] Monero Speculation

[Spaceman_Spiff]

You will initially be swimming in heaven, but eventually your brain will adjust, and you will find yourself feeling more or less how you feel right now.  What you are really craving can't be bought on the street... It has to be earned though participating in the advancement of civilization itself.  
  
How much would you pay to know the real truth about the universe and reality? (To the extent of a human's ability to comprehend)?  
  
How much would you pay for enhanced implants that will advance you beyond even the genius of our greatest members?  
  
How much do you think another year of life is worth to a man on his deathbed from terminal cancer?  
  
What about immortality itself?  
  
Non-existence is coming for us all, whether we shield our eyes from its gaze with a hooker's thighs or not.  

Hear, hear !  I just hope shit advances fast enough.  So far investment in real life extension technology has been paltry (I am not talking about "Vitamin X, Y and Z will make you live forever" or "we are looking to knock out gene X or Y for life extension", but a real, more complicated approach [best proposal I have seen so far has been SENS]), but lately there are big guns getting into the space, which makes me a bit more hopeful.  These things take (a lot of) time, so we better get cracking fast.

About the intelligence enhancement: I would also be interested in something like that, but I doubt that enhancement in itself will make you happy.  To quote a famous author "You will initially be swimming in heaven, but eventually your brain will adjust, and you will find yourself feeling more or less how you feel right now"   . I haven't thought about this a lot though, so I might be wrong.
Maybe we'll figure out a way to separate enjoyment/feeling good and behavioral/learning effects, so that we can live very happily by some sort of stimulation without becoming stupid/asocial/behaviorally simple/repetitive and/or unmotivated (think happy drugs without side-effects).  I could go for a future in which I can live on indefinitely, happy, and with increased intelligence and awareness.

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[iCEBREAKER]

Try telling some 2nd/3rd world kid (whether an orphan or just Not Rich) that he should avoid a first world education even if offered one, because it "sucks."

They have been instrumental of giving me this knowledge. Otherwise I would be blind just as you. Ever visited India and made friends with the people there? Or any other country in another continent?

Blind?  I can quite clearly see you've not responded to any of my points about Bitcoin and its antecedents/decendents promulgating primarily from individuals educated, and research performed, at "famous universities."

I can easily go to Mexico (or Florida) if I wanted to meet kids who'd love and benefit greatly from a first world education.

But I'd love to visit India.  I'm sure I'll have a blast making friends there, just like every other country on every other continent I've visited.

Believe it or not, but (like most Monero Mustangs) my strongly held crazy opinions, frankness, and humor make me a fun person to party with.   

[dnaleor]

If you have an opinion on the matter, we just had a topic on Reddit discussing what to eventually call Monero atomic units on Reddit.  (Yes, it's a conversation we've had before, and will have again).  
  
My favorite is a combination of the most popular suggestions, a millionth of a Monero being called a nero, and a millionth of a nero being called an eta.  
  
Check out the topic if you like: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3q21yx/its_time_to_argue_about_what_atomic_units_of/

I like nero, but am not sold on eta yet.

They should be in esperanto.   eta is great .....  nero  less so.   how about  iom ( little)

repost from reddit:

the smallest unit should imho be called "monereto" or the short version "eto", plural "etoj".
It means "part". 10^12 moneretoj (monero parts / small coins) in 1 monero

other fun esperanto words related to monero can be found here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3exy7t/esperanto_corner

[rpietila]

1/10^6 moneroj is already coined "monereto".

[americanpegasus]

the smallest unit should imho be called "monereto" or the short version "eto", plural "etoj".
It means "part". 1012 moneretoj (monero parts / small coins) in 1 monero

 
 
I humbly disagree.  'Eta' and 'eto' may be possible for the masses to adopt, but adding "j" for plurals or other multi-syllable weirdness isn't going to get picked up and spread. 
 
Remember, as inaccurate and infuriating as it was, the simple term 'bits' for a millionth of a bitcoin has won the war of sub-units.  The term 'Satoshi' might carry history, but no average user is going to refer to a sub-unit with three exotic syllables vs. a simple one-syllable word they are already familiar with. 

[americanpegasus]

Here's my new story whenever someone tells me how "impossible" it is for Monero to ever reach or exceed the Bitcoin network:  
  
 
  
Pretend there are only two cell phone providers, PubTel and PrivTel.  Both have a unique structure.... they give away free cell phones, but their cell phone minutes (and data plans) cost more the more people are on their network.  
  
So if there are few users, the cell phone minutes and data are extremely cheap, and with many users they become extremely expensive.  There are other providers, but many have large technical flaws so it's really down between these two for any real competition.  
  
Oh, and one more important point: There's no inter-network capabilities: if you want to talk to PrivTel customers or message them, you have to use a PrivTel phone.  If you want to talk to PubTel's customers, you have to use their phone and PubTel minutes/data.  Nothing says you can't own both phones, if you pay for them, but each network remains separate from the other.  
  
Oh, and one last fact: PubTel launched first and has a much bigger network that PrivTel, but the way they work, anyone (users and non-users) can log onto PubTel.com and see a complete record of any user's calls, texts, and data usage.  Some have criticized this, but many say that it doesn't matter: do you really care if strangers can see that you called your girlfriend, texted your mom you 'love her', or visited CNN?  Only criminals and people with something to hide mind the public nature of the PubTel network.  PubTel might have no privacy and be a lot more expensive, but they have the biggest network and many think this assures their continued dominance.  
  
PrivTel is a much smaller network, and not as many people are on it yet.  The good news is that because of this minutes and data are orders of magnitude cheaper!  Also, it has totally private billing.  No one can see who you call, and no one can see what websites you visit or what your text messages are.  It's obvious that this is a huge advantage, but PrivTel is currently a little harder to use (but getting easier) and you can't call as many people with it yet.  
  
People make the ridiculous claim that PrivTel might have some limited future... but will never match or exceed the PubTel network.  
  
Do you see how insane that claim is?  

[rangedriver]

repost from reddit:

the smallest unit should imho be called "monereto" or the short version "eto", plural "etoj".
It means "part". 1012 moneretoj (monero parts / small coins) in 1 monero

other fun esperanto words related to monero can be found here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3exy7t/esperanto_corner

I'm not sure it really matters.

Litecoin spent months and months debating whether the 8th decimal place should be called a spark, or a coblee, or a litee, or something else that I can't remember. Unbeknownst to them, Poloniex trollbox was already referrring to it as a 'litoshi'. So that kinda became the defacto term irrespective of management.

In practice, the 8th decimal place isn't likely to be used much anyway, so there's no urgency to officialise anything. Darwin rules OK.

Currently, Wikipedia lists Monero's 1/10⁸ unit as a "tacoshi". That works, and I'd be surprised if common usage deviated from it much.

The suffix "-shi" serves as a useful reminder to the uninitiated (through cognitive intuition) that what they are dealing with is the 8th decimal place. Satoshi, Litoshi, Tacoshi. So it fits into and supports a defacto standard that exists (if nowhere else) in the subconcious.

Besides, I suspect that when Bitcoin truly hits mainstream everyone will be referring to the smallest unit as 'pips" - and that will likely follow through onto altcoins.

Of greater interest is the 6th decimal place. This is probably an area which deserves more careful consideration. (My vote here would be for neros.)

[americanpegasus]

(My vote here would be for neros.)

 
 
It's growing on me.  It has some historical symbolic meaning behind it (ancient emperor) and is also a pun.  It's also one syllable. 
 
What we need to remember though is that Monero, unlike bitcoin, is divisible into 100,000 more units per macro-unit (if I'm wrong on this, please correct me).  Each bitcoin is divisible into 1/100,000,000 while each Monero can be broken down into a trillionth. 
 
This gives us a fun and unique structure where, one monero = one million sub-units.  Each of those sub-units = one million sub_sub-units.  Whatever is eventually settled on should take advantage of this unique and cool fact.  If neros are the "pennies" of the Monero world, it's neat and reassuring they too can be broken down into millionths when the time comes.

[nioc]

Someone is having a bit of fun on the Polo bid side.  They have places 1-2 XMR bids starting at 133200 and increasing by 1 satoshi all the way up to 133400 and a few a bit above that.  Somebody must be bored. 

I haven't bought on Polo for quite a while but instead mostly on Bittrex.  When you are on Bittrex you need to have Polo opened because Bittrex follows every move of Polo's almost instantaneously.  Dump on Polo = bids on trex pulled etc.

While taking a work break    it seems one of my bids filled. 

[iCEBREAKER]

This gives us a fun and unique structure where, one monero = one million sub-units.  Each of those sub-units = one million sub_sub-units.  Whatever is eventually settled on should take advantage of this unique and cool fact.  If neros are the "pennies" of the Monero world, it's neat and reassuring they too can be broken down into millionths when the time comes.

The XMR unit equivalent to a satoshi is a tacoshi.

As for the smallest sub-unit of those, I like the term subtoshi.

[Harpua]

Here's my new story whenever someone tells me how "impossible" it is for Monero to ever reach or exceed the Bitcoin network: 
 
 
 
Pretend there are only two cell phone providers, PubTel and PrivTel.  Both have a unique structure.... they give away free cell phones, but their cell phone minutes (and data plans) cost more the more people are on their network. 
 
So if there are few users, the cell phone minutes and data are extremely cheap, and with many users they become extremely expensive.  There are other providers, but many have large technical flaws so it's really down between these two for any real competition. 
 
Oh, and one more important point: There's no inter-network capabilities: if you want to talk to PrivTel customers or message them, you have to use a PrivTel phone.  If you want to talk to PubTel's customers, you have to use their phone and PubTel minutes/data.  Nothing says you can't own both phones, if you pay for them, but each network remains separate from the other. 
 
Oh, and one last fact: PubTel launched first and has a much bigger network that PrivTel, but the way they work, anyone (users and non-users) can log onto PubTel.com and see a complete record of any user's calls, texts, and data usage.  Some have criticized this, but many say that it doesn't matter: do you really care if strangers can see that you called your girlfriend, texted your mom you 'love her', or visited CNN?  Only criminals and people with something to hide mind the public nature of the PubTel network.  PubTel might have no privacy and be a lot more expensive, but they have the biggest network and many think this assures their continued dominance. 
 
PrivTel is a much smaller network, and not as many people are on it yet.  The good news is that because of this minutes and data are orders of magnitude cheaper!  Also, it has totally private billing.  No one can see who you call, and no one can see what websites you visit or what your text messages are.  It's obvious that this is a huge advantage, but PrivTel is currently a little harder to use (but getting easier) and you can't call as many people with it yet. 
 
People make the ridiculous claim that PrivTel might have some limited future... but will never match or exceed the PubTel network. 
 
Do you see how insane that claim is? 

I can definitely see your point by putting it in those terms... but I think there could/should be more comparisons in this scenario to completely view the scope of what the crypto world is fully doing.  Since it's pretty obvious to assume that bitcoin will remain the public sector and monero will become the private sector of communication (in currencies); well what about the future of the next "road runner" of cryptocurrencies?

If you were to compare the public and private sectors in terms of internet connection (because in your scenario, you describe the two coins as a form of communication); then it would be safe to say that both of these currencies are still pretty much using "dial-up".  What if there comes a coin that offers a reliable communication of currency between people all around the world at "road runner" speeds?  I mean, I can remember back in the day when road runner became everyones internet connection of choice because no one had to deal with that annoying ass dial up tune I assume everyone on here has burned into their memory; as well as no one had to wait a minute or two for a page to pull up.

This is what I imagine when thinking of issues of cryptocurrencies today; the extremely long wait times for transactions to be confirmed... I'm just afraid/excited that there might be a crypto that's about to come out that would essentially revolutionize the transaction speeds and make bitcoin and cryptonote coins both obsolete.

[SmoothCurves]

You will initially be swimming in heaven, but eventually your brain will adjust, and you will find yourself feeling more or less how you feel right now.  What you are really craving can't be bought on the street... It has to be earned though participating in the advancement of civilization itself.  
  
How much would you pay to know the real truth about the universe and reality? (To the extent of a human's ability to comprehend)?  
  
How much would you pay for enhanced implants that will advance you beyond even the genius of our greatest members?  
  
How much do you think another year of life is worth to a man on his deathbed from terminal cancer?  
  
What about immortality itself?  
  
Non-existence is coming for us all, whether we shield our eyes from its gaze with a hooker's thighs or not.  

Hear, hear !  I just hope shit advances fast enough.  So far investment in real life extension technology has been paltry (I am not talking about "Vitamin X, Y and Z will make you live forever" or "we are looking to knock out gene X or Y for life extension", but a real, more complicated approach [best proposal I have seen so far has been SENS]), but lately there are big guns getting into the space, which makes me a bit more hopeful.  These things take (a lot of) time, so we better get cracking fast.

About the intelligence enhancement: I would also be interested in something like that, but I doubt that enhancement in itself will make you happy.  To quote a famous author "You will initially be swimming in heaven, but eventually your brain will adjust, and you will find yourself feeling more or less how you feel right now"   . I haven't thought about this a lot though, so I might be wrong.
Maybe we'll figure out a way to separate enjoyment/feeling good and behavioral/learning effects, so that we can live very happily by some sort of stimulation without becoming stupid/asocial/behaviorally simple/repetitive and/or unmotivated (think happy drugs without side-effects).  I could go for a future in which I can live on indefinitely, happy, and with increased intelligence and awareness.

A good PDF published by the IEET on aging prevention: http://immortality-roadmap.com/lifeexteng.pdf

[dEBRUYNE]

Regarding the implementation and timeline of Monero Confidential Transactions (CT), I spotted the following Q&A on r/monero:

this will cause a moonshot eventually. I hope it does not take years to implement

&

I don't think it will be that long -I have like one bit of unrelated research I need to finish, which hopefully is almost done, and then I should have a couple of free days to spend on it.

[onemorexmr]

This gives us a fun and unique structure where, one monero = one million sub-units.  Each of those sub-units = one million sub_sub-units.  Whatever is eventually settled on should take advantage of this unique and cool fact.  If neros are the "pennies" of the Monero world, it's neat and reassuring they too can be broken down into millionths when the time comes.

The XMR unit equivalent to a satoshi is a tacoshi.

As for the smallest sub-unit of those, I like the term subtoshi.

subtoshi sounds good.

[smoothie]

Here's my new story whenever someone tells me how "impossible" it is for Monero to ever reach or exceed the Bitcoin network:  
  
 
  
Pretend there are only two cell phone providers, PubTel and PrivTel.  Both have a unique structure.... they give away free cell phones, but their cell phone minutes (and data plans) cost more the more people are on their network.  
  
So if there are few users, the cell phone minutes and data are extremely cheap, and with many users they become extremely expensive.  There are other providers, but many have large technical flaws so it's really down between these two for any real competition.  
  
Oh, and one more important point: There's no inter-network capabilities: if you want to talk to PrivTel customers or message them, you have to use a PrivTel phone.  If you want to talk to PubTel's customers, you have to use their phone and PubTel minutes/data.  Nothing says you can't own both phones, if you pay for them, but each network remains separate from the other.  
  
Oh, and one last fact: PubTel launched first and has a much bigger network that PrivTel, but the way they work, anyone (users and non-users) can log onto PubTel.com and see a complete record of any user's calls, texts, and data usage.  Some have criticized this, but many say that it doesn't matter: do you really care if strangers can see that you called your girlfriend, texted your mom you 'love her', or visited CNN?  Only criminals and people with something to hide mind the public nature of the PubTel network.  PubTel might have no privacy and be a lot more expensive, but they have the biggest network and many think this assures their continued dominance.  
  
PrivTel is a much smaller network, and not as many people are on it yet.  The good news is that because of this minutes and data are orders of magnitude cheaper!  Also, it has totally private billing.  No one can see who you call, and no one can see what websites you visit or what your text messages are.  It's obvious that this is a huge advantage, but PrivTel is currently a little harder to use (but getting easier) and you can't call as many people with it yet.  
  
People make the ridiculous claim that PrivTel might have some limited future... but will never match or exceed the PubTel network.  
  
Do you see how insane that claim is?  

I'm not sure the cell phone analogy works well as with cell phones not many people are looking for security. They just wanna communicate with others.

And if people want to have very sensitive/classified conversations they will buy a plane ticket and go talk in person with no recording devices around to hear their conversation.

All phone calls are interconnectable in this day and age. Pretty bad analogy once again.

I get your point but it is just a bad analogy as that is now THAT market works to be used as an analogy.

I agree with what you are trying to convey underneath the hood though.

[smoothie]

Here's my new story whenever someone tells me how "impossible" it is for Monero to ever reach or exceed the Bitcoin network:  
  
 
  
Pretend there are only two cell phone providers, PubTel and PrivTel.  Both have a unique structure.... they give away free cell phones, but their cell phone minutes (and data plans) cost more the more people are on their network.  
  
So if there are few users, the cell phone minutes and data are extremely cheap, and with many users they become extremely expensive.  There are other providers, but many have large technical flaws so it's really down between these two for any real competition.  
  
Oh, and one more important point: There's no inter-network capabilities: if you want to talk to PrivTel customers or message them, you have to use a PrivTel phone.  If you want to talk to PubTel's customers, you have to use their phone and PubTel minutes/data.  Nothing says you can't own both phones, if you pay for them, but each network remains separate from the other.  
  
Oh, and one last fact: PubTel launched first and has a much bigger network that PrivTel, but the way they work, anyone (users and non-users) can log onto PubTel.com and see a complete record of any user's calls, texts, and data usage.  Some have criticized this, but many say that it doesn't matter: do you really care if strangers can see that you called your girlfriend, texted your mom you 'love her', or visited CNN?  Only criminals and people with something to hide mind the public nature of the PubTel network.  PubTel might have no privacy and be a lot more expensive, but they have the biggest network and many think this assures their continued dominance.  
  
PrivTel is a much smaller network, and not as many people are on it yet.  The good news is that because of this minutes and data are orders of magnitude cheaper!  Also, it has totally private billing.  No one can see who you call, and no one can see what websites you visit or what your text messages are.  It's obvious that this is a huge advantage, but PrivTel is currently a little harder to use (but getting easier) and you can't call as many people with it yet.  
  
People make the ridiculous claim that PrivTel might have some limited future... but will never match or exceed the PubTel network.  
  
Do you see how insane that claim is?  

I can definitely see your point by putting it in those terms... but I think there could/should be more comparisons in this scenario to completely view the scope of what the crypto world is fully doing.  Since it's pretty obvious to assume that bitcoin will remain the public sector and monero will become the private sector of communication (in currencies); well what about the future of the next "road runner" of cryptocurrencies?

If you were to compare the public and private sectors in terms of internet connection (because in your scenario, you describe the two coins as a form of communication); then it would be safe to say that both of these currencies are still pretty much using "dial-up".  What if there comes a coin that offers a reliable communication of currency between people all around the world at "road runner" speeds?  I mean, I can remember back in the day when road runner became everyones internet connection of choice because no one had to deal with that annoying ass dial up tune I assume everyone on here has burned into their memory; as well as no one had to wait a minute or two for a page to pull up.

This is what I imagine when thinking of issues of cryptocurrencies today; the extremely long wait times for transactions to be confirmed... I'm just afraid/excited that there might be a crypto that's about to come out that would essentially revolutionize the transaction speeds and make bitcoin and cryptonote coins both obsolete.

I think the issue with speed of confirmations of payment is risk of orphaning blocks.

That will always be the case as long as we are using satoshi's blockchain model with mining.

So that "Road Runner" option would be a much cheaper network (in terms of its individual units per fiat or whatever currency you choose).

People will choose speed of small payments over security for small payments eventually.

But for larger purchases it will require maximum security and possibly maximum privacy.

So yeah I can see a RR option coming a bouts...but how they solve their issues with "lightning fast" confirmations has yet to be seen. Even Dash saying they have instant confirmations I am pretty sure comes at a risk of being orphaned or some other trade off. You don't get something for nothing. There is a trade off to speed and that is security.

[smoothie]

Regarding the implementation and timeline of Monero Confidential Transactions (CT), I spotted the following Q&A on r/monero:

this will cause a moonshot eventually. I hope it does not take years to implement

&

I don't think it will be that long -I have like one bit of unrelated research I need to finish, which hopefully is almost done, and then I should have a couple of free days to spend on it.

It is nice to see Shen putting so much time into CT and his whitepaper and test implementations in mininero.

Definitely will be worth adding once it is fully tested by many on testnet or whatever.

[smooth]

This is what I imagine when thinking of issues of cryptocurrencies today; the extremely long wait times for transactions to be confirmed... I'm just afraid/excited that there might be a crypto that's about to come out that would essentially revolutionize the transaction speeds and make bitcoin and cryptonote coins both obsolete.

We know how to instant microtransactions well in Bitcoin, without half assed insecure gimmicks. It's called payment channels and is already implemented in the streamium. It is also being generalized into the Lightning network, where people can route instant payments to one another without having a point-to-point channel between them set up first.

The same techniques can be used in any coin that is UXTO based. In due time something like that will come to Monero too.

"Instant payments" are just the latest of the many altcoin fads that have come (and gone) through the scene. Take note of it but don't overreact.

[jehst]

DASH is supposed to have instant transactions now, right? It's not like that stopped it from being de-listed from Bitfinex and falling with the rest of the alts.

I will say that I can think of at least 4-5 times that waiting for 3 bitcoin confirmations (localbitcoins.com) was really annoying.

[Harpua]

This is what I imagine when thinking of issues of cryptocurrencies today; the extremely long wait times for transactions to be confirmed... I'm just afraid/excited that there might be a crypto that's about to come out that would essentially revolutionize the transaction speeds and make bitcoin and cryptonote coins both obsolete.

We know how to instant microtransactions well in Bitcoin, without half assed insecure gimmicks. It's called payment channels and is already implemented in the streamium. It is also being generalized into the Lightning network, where people can route instant payments to one another without having a point-to-point channel between them set up first.

The same techniques can be used in any coin that is UXTO based. In due time something like that will come to Monero too.

"Instant payments" are just the latest of the many altcoin fads that have come (and gone) through the scene. Take note of it but don't overreact.

Please forgive the newbness... but what is an UXTO based coin? Also, from what I've read so far in terms of high transaction speeds, there seems to be some hesitance toward it because of the fear of some "orphan blocks" or lost transactions.  As far as I understand it, it's hard for developers of bitcoin to agree on "simple" things like block sizes, so I can't really see them jumping on board with instant payments, but I can see with the work you are doing at AEON and teaming up with XMR, you might implement some of these protocols into both.  Would AEON be a testbed for this type of thing soon, or are you already working on that sort of thing?