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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation  (Read 3312476 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (2 posts by 1+ user deleted.)
dEBRUYNE
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April 21, 2015, 11:04:19 AM
 #4961

All the shorters were burned just 2 months ago ...

How do you short Monero?

It wasn't "real" shorting (borrowing and return later), more like people selling in order to buy back lower. This especially happened when we were at the 0.0010-0.0015 range and most people thought they could buy back significantly lower. We all know how this ended, hence rpietila saying all the shorters got burned (or atleast a great percentage of them).

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April 21, 2015, 11:14:39 AM
 #4962

The emmision schedule of XMR is very good for maintaining a stable price, discounting the first mania phase it has been one of the most stable coins, relatively. There is no chance of XMR going to 0.01 and beyond (if btc stays around current price) while the emmision is still so high. Not because there isn't the money out there but it is in nobodies interest to buy up to that price and give the botnet operators more btc for the *free* coins they mint. If the mining network was not mostly botnets then more coins would be kept by miners who are actually interested in the coin and the effects of emmision would be less profound. Everyone seems to be fighting against what the emmision schedule was desinged to do, give a long distribution phase and allow many people to get a peice of the pie at a decent price.

Good text.

You are assuming that all the current and future holders forsake their self-interest in maintaining the community interest. While new holders perhaps quickly conform to this thinking and turn to slow accumulation, it does not take more than 1 large new holder or a few middle-sized ones who don't, and the whole theory becomes as defensible as BTC price at $1 USD in May, 2011.

Just because the actions of the first year of XMR can retroactively be explained by a smallish community working together, does not mean that the future would bear any resemblance.

I write my short-term forecasts mainly for fun. In the longer term the deciding factor is how many XMR you own, and at present the price is so low that the thing that makes the most sense from the selfish perspective is just to buy the desired amount and not care about it.

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April 21, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
 #4963

ITS

A

BONNET!


theoretically free XMR, dumped at whatever price for whatever profit.

I think that is a decent percentage of the chance here.  Also a whale who has profits and see this binary situation as a good sell.  I'd say 60/40

To be honest the Botnet thing is one of Monero's dirtiest secrets.  It's a shame there is no way to avoid it yet.  It is a stain on the whole project IMHO.  But there are worse things.
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April 21, 2015, 02:06:26 PM
 #4964

Interesting local low at 0.002645 BTC.
If we calculate the fib levels, we see that the 50% retracement is at .002639 BTC. Close enough? Smiley

If we close the daily above 0.0028 (preferably a green candle so above 0.003039 BTC) then we have a nice technical higher low adn I'm betting on a new uptrend Wink

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April 21, 2015, 02:17:10 PM
 #4965

To be honest the Botnet thing is one of Monero's dirtiest secrets.  It's a shame there is no way to avoid it yet.  It is a stain on the whole project IMHO.  But there are worse things.

I honestly don't think it's that bad. If/when Monero becomes more popular and easy background mining is implemented in the core wallet/daemon, then it will be much less of an issue, but even at the current levels of popularity and usage I don't think it's such a big deal. Would you rather have shady botnet operators collecting 10-80% of coinbases, or would you rather have shady operators like KnC, Butterfly Labs, Gaw Miners, etc. collecting a significant fraction of coins? It's a tradeoff, for sure, but one that I don't think is necessarily a negative compared to ASiC-only coins, leaving aside GPU-only coins.
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April 21, 2015, 02:20:07 PM
 #4966

To be honest the Botnet thing is one of Monero's dirtiest secrets.  It's a shame there is no way to avoid it yet.  It is a stain on the whole project IMHO.  But there are worse things.

I honestly don't think it's that bad. If/when Monero becomes more popular and easy background mining is implemented in the core wallet/daemon, then it will be much less of an issue, but even at the current levels of popularity and usage I don't think it's such a big deal. Would you rather have shady botnet operators collecting 10-80% of coinbases, or would you rather have shady operators like KnC, Butterfly Labs, Gaw Miners, etc. collecting a significant fraction of coins? It's a tradeoff, for sure, but one that I don't think is necessarily a negative compared to ASiC-only coins, leaving aside GPU-only coins.

I dug up this posts, because of its relevance to the current posts:

I dont think Botnet mining will stay a big danger, in the long term.

Only the very worst botmasters, really choose to install crypto currency miners on their victim machines.
There are several other sources of income, like DDoS attacks, theft of confidential information, spam, phishing, SEO spam, click fraud and distribution of adware and malicious programs that are paying better in total and have better risk/reward-ratio mining.

Have a short look at:
http://old.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792068/The_economics_of_Botnets?print_mode=1
http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/10/the-scrap-value-of-a-hacked-pc-revisited/
https://www.iseclab.org/papers/cutwail-LEET11.pdf
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1309.0522v1.pdf


Besides making way more money with other streams of generated income (with less work).
What are other reasons why is mining a bad choice to monetize your botnet?

- the big, permanent full CPU usage even noobs will notice (and raise infection concerns or lead to OS reinstall, buying new PC, bad because new install is not infected)

- the introduced new CPU usage from mining could harm other services or tools you run on the victims (that are not usable with new permanent usage load, like webcam spying, RDP usage on victim, ...)

- cooling problems

- it often slows the victims computer to strongly to be able to do general computer work

- antivirus software is actively searching for findings (files, traffic or process activites) are related to mining (adds big unessacry AV detection risk)

- risk of victims provider or mining pool admin noticing the botnet mining and informing the victim

- u cant run out-of-the-box mining software, because you need encrypt the well known binaries (obfuscate it so much) so you dont get dectected by AV software (i think with most working crypters that make your suspious binaries undetected by AV you lose at least factor 4 in performance vs. unencrypted standard mining software)

- botmasters want to automatization as much so possible, a mining operation on the big botnet is to much work (selling the coins, switching pools, avoiding bans by pools, advoiding frozen exchange  accounts, finding correct time to sell the CC, updating mining software encryption, optimizing whats possible for you, choosing the right hype coin, which change often, ...)

- bad footprint on the mining network: because your clients arent using specific hardware options regular miners would turn on for there mining client (because you have to roll out a general setup that works everywhere)

- bad footprint on the mining network: you dont have the same hardware power as the general legitime CPU miners in average per machine,
the majority of botnet-member have old, slow hardware vs. the global average of deployed CPU - because the majority of botnet-members are old computers with old hardware (win 2000, win xp, vista) and in a typical botnet the majority of install are in poor underdeveloped countries (china, india, brasil, poor regions of turkey, ....) -> no money -> no fast pc
(another factor why alot installs are in poor countries because people use pirated windows the cant update -> security holes stay open forever)

- crypting is expensive; adding a miner to your current intalled malware will encrease monthly crypting costs (can be big jump, if u for example are currently reencrypt your malware every 7 days to stay undected and now with an added cryptocurrency miner you need now to encrypt daily, -> 7x your current crypting-costs)

- costs of changing your crypting-setup (establishing are working configuration & testing),
in most cases with more re-encrypts you need to invest in more botnet-infostructure, more C&C-servers to handle the increased work load (doing more encryption, serving it) and new proxy-server to roll out the new crypts (because increased traffics, avoid IDS dections by to often using the same proxies, which were enough, when there were old longer crypting-setup with with less routinly connections) needed with the new demands

- maybe your subscribed favourite crypting-service or software solutions doesnt even offer the possibility of your new encryption demand (alot have unchangable rules like: "re-encrypt only ever 72 h" or stuff like "only 4 re-encrypts per month")

- added of work managing thousands of different mining pools accounts or setting & running your own pool

- there are some AV-industry & IT-Security-people that actively fight mining botnet, because they want to support CryptoCurrency in general or a specific coin they support) a significant increased risk losing your whole botnet, vs. the small added benefits of adding mining software

- over 90% of botnet-members are multi-infected with typically being member from average 3 botnets and bad unpatched PCs that are members 7 or more botnets
---> mining cant get popular as income stream for botnets, because the victim has one CPU but alot of infections  Smiley



I think you get idea why long running mining operation in big botnets are very unlikely.

--> there always will be kids that are new to boting scene, that fool around and may run mining on their new SMALL botnet for 4 weeks or maybe 3 months before removing mining from there setup or giving up botting for various reasons (botnet get sold to serious operator or becomes inactive/be turned off)

--> no serious botnet-operation (the ones running the huge ones) will pick up mining because its endangeres their whole botnet, often being an $$$$$$$$$$-business they depent on and have certain responsabilites to third cybercrime partys they do business with

The result
In an scenario with Monero mainstream adoption they legitime miners will strongly outnumber the number botnet miners in the network.
Because the number of botnet miners is strongly limited by the fact that only small, new botnets with newb botmasters (kids) will mining clients on their victims computers for a small very limited amount of time.
(Also see, not all botnet miners will mine Monero, AFAIK the most profitable CPU-mineable coins often changes and is on alot of days not Monero)

Big text. I hope I did add some useful information to thread.

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April 21, 2015, 02:24:17 PM
 #4967

cheap coins soon!

we could very likely go back to 0.0018
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April 21, 2015, 02:51:02 PM
 #4968

cheap coins soon!

we could very likely go back to 0.0018
Hope this coincides with a dip in Bitcoin.
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April 21, 2015, 02:51:43 PM
 #4969

cheap coins soon!

we could very likely go back to 0.0018

We could also never see 0.0018 again, who knows, I wouldn't mind picking up some more <0.002 coins tho
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April 21, 2015, 03:14:10 PM
 #4970

cheap coins soon!

we could very likely go back to 0.0018

We could also never see 0.0018 again, who knows, I wouldn't mind picking up some more <0.002 coins tho

Curious if you're still accumulating xcn.

Nope, I still got all my coins but I bought them when they were a lot higher.

Luckily I bought them with profit from other trades so I don't really mind what happens with them, the market for it seems pretty dead tho.
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April 21, 2015, 03:19:22 PM
 #4971

Hopefully, smart mining makes mining a) decentralized and b) virtually unprofitable for everyone.

Year 2021
Bitcoin Supply: ~90% mined
Supply Inflation: <1.8%
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April 21, 2015, 03:24:42 PM
 #4972

we could very likely go back to 0.0018

In these circumstances, the above requires either that a large number of people who believe in Monero are willing to sell at a loss, or that no new money enters in at least 1 month, and the existing holders don't pick the ball.

I would say the first one is not going to happen. The second one might, but then 0.0018 is not a magic number. The turn upwards happens once the money starts flowing again. Monero is such an interesting project that I am not betting against that.

We agree on 0.0018 being the floor, at which the existing holders are happy to buy all the emission without regard to new money or not.

(The speculation case that "speculators sell" is not included because every sane speculator already sold at 0.003 (at a loss  Tongue ); also the "sell in order to buy back" was so recently proven stupid that only the ones who could avoid it have any XMR now Wink )

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April 21, 2015, 05:01:50 PM
 #4973

..also the "sell in order to buy back" was so recently proven stupid that only the ones who could avoid it have any XMR now Wink )

Actually that's probably not quite true. I would hazard a guess that a lot of people who got burned trying to 'sell to buy back' decided to temporarily jump on the Darkcoin train, riding it up to its peak before dumping and rejoining the XMR train later on, with a slight XMR profit to boot.  Tongue

Whether such a move can be replicated this time remains to be seen.
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April 21, 2015, 06:12:40 PM
 #4974

..also the "sell in order to buy back" was so recently proven stupid that only the ones who could avoid it have any XMR now Wink )

Actually that's probably not quite true. I would hazard a guess that a lot of people who got burned trying to 'sell to buy back' decided to temporarily jump on the Darkcoin train, riding it up to its peak before dumping and rejoining the XMR train later on, with a slight XMR profit to boot.  Tongue

Whether such a move can be replicated this time remains to be seen.

It is far more likely they got burned twice, first by selling XMR at or near the low and then by buying DRK/DASH at or near its high. Expand this chart all the way to August 2014 and see. https://poloniex.com/exchange#xmr_dash.

I prefer to buy from the sell low hoping to buy lower crowd and then take delivery, sit back and hold.
Edit: The best way to squeeze the shorts is to buy, take delivery and then simply do nothing and wait.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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April 21, 2015, 06:35:29 PM
 #4975

A bit pissed off cause although i anticipated the drop for days i anyway bought a few  XMR around 0.003.

Oh well. As fluffy says 1 XMR is 1 XMR Cheesy

Do you guys really think that it can go under 0.0024?
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April 21, 2015, 06:37:14 PM
 #4976

A bit pissed off cause although i anticipated the drop for days i anyway bought a few  XMR around 0.003.

Oh well. As fluffy says 1 XMR is 1 XMR Cheesy

Do you guys really think that it can go under 0.0024?

im not making the same mistake i made last time. the more the price dips the more i buy this time. if there are very many other people like me out there, than no.

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April 21, 2015, 09:34:11 PM
 #4977

what does this tell us?



Monero is different  Cool
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April 21, 2015, 10:38:28 PM
 #4978

that's true. i often notice it the other way as well. on days where coinmarketcap is a sea of red monero will be the only green.

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April 22, 2015, 07:29:43 AM
 #4979



Do you guys really think that it can go under 0.0024?

Absolutely.
It is not even very far away... Looks like the 0.00265 Fib has been broken so it is doomed to go lower.
Short term is bearish... Mid term still bullish and long term bearish.
I hate to face the reality as it is but this is the current situation.
I was anticipating new ATHs soon but it didn't come so down we go.
The good thing is, when the price declines, the community gets more Moneros for their bitcoins so patience is the virtue here.
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April 22, 2015, 07:44:08 AM
 #4980



Do you guys really think that it can go under 0.0024?

Absolutely.
It is not even very far away... Looks like the 0.00265 Fib has been broken so it is doomed to go lower.
Short term is bearish... Mid term still bullish and long term bearish.
I hate to face the reality as it is but this is the current situation.
I was anticipating new ATHs soon but it didn't come so down we go.
The good thing is, when the price declines, the community gets more Moneros for their bitcoins so patience is the virtue here.

What do you mean by "long term bearish"?
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