[XMR] Monero Speculation

[SmoothCurves]

I have been out for 5 days, designing a game that should be online in 16 days (for 3 weeks total). Trolls jumping on the table for that.

Relax, dudes! This is supposed to be fun. And I am having fun. I never bought moneros for the reason that I would sell, so it does not matter that a €15k dump (seriously - what is that for money??) makes the price go down.

The game thread is the one with the most enthusiastic response I have ever had on this forum. That is nice Since it is using XMR as the ingame currency, and will in due time be integrated to a wallet, people playing the game are causing their XMR balance to go up simultaneously. Even a quite trivial game of 50,000 players can suck in 100,000s of XMR permanently (because playing without circulating currency is not possible, in a way it is "fiat" in the game, although fluctuating in value).

Read what I said, trolls, and shut up. (Sorry I'm sounding like AnonyMint, but I also sometimes have moments of epiphany )

I think it's a fun idea and i'm looking forward to playing it. BTW any thoughts on when we might expect a blockchain.info equivalent for Monero?

[saddambitcoin]

I think the game will be fun, which is something the crypto community lacks. I also grew up playing PC games in the 80s and 90s, probably most of us in this nerd filled forum have as well, unless you were not born yet.

Look how SatoshiDice brought Bitcoin some fun activity in 2012, inspiring economic growth along with SR. Now, many alternate currencies also try these first milestones for economic adoption: dark markets and gambling sites. But who is to say those outlets have to be the initial catalyst to attract a userbase? They are quite exclusive. A game is something all ages can play and it is not illegal.

[rpietila]

I think the game will be fun, which is something the crypto community lacks. I also grew up playing PC games in the 80s and 90s, probably most of us in this nerd filled forum have as well, unless you were not born yet.

Yes, the retro gamers are an untapped resource. The desire to play is there, we are many, we are in our 30s-40s and if not rich, at least well-to-do and np financially to invest $100s in a hobby over 2 years if it is satisfying.

Games today are not to my taste. No soul. This I would play myself.

Now, many alternate currencies also try these first milestones for economic adoption: dark markets and gambling sites. But who is to say those outlets have to be the initial catalyst to attract a userbase? They are quite exclusive. A game is something all ages can play and it is not illegal.

Yes, why not design a whole economic system that solely uses this currency? So that every character eats 1 XMR worth of resources per real-month? Would that not be the adoption? Virtual money, virtual adoption 

[michaelb87]

Resorting to a game is cute and all but I lost faith somehow in XMR. I'll keep what I have and sell when it's back up a bit, I'm out

[Eastwind]

Resorting to a game is cute and all but I lost faith somehow in XMR. I'll keep what I have and sell when it's back up a bit, I'm out

If XMR can be used in games, that is good.

[rangedriver]

Resorting to a game is cute and all but I lost faith somehow in XMR. I'll keep what I have and sell when it's back up a bit, I'm out

If XMR can be used in games, that is good.

Yes but I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. I'm not interested in the game personally - In my kind of business I just don't have time to play games. It is a big disappointment but not the end of the world. I just need a functioning anonymous coin that can handle big volume. So far so good, but the devs need to get their GUI sorted ASAP otherwise I'm out too.

[vuduchyld]

I feel like I must be in a parallel universe or there is something I'm not reading correctly.

It is strange to me that the work on the game would cause people to somehow feel worse about XMR.  It's not like rpietila is the main dev working on any of the other dev team projects.  This is just a cherry on top of the sundae.  I mean, if they came out and said, "hey, we're going to drop the GUI wallet because we've got this new game coming out," that would be one thing.  But that isn't the case.

[rangedriver]

I feel like I must be in a parallel universe or there is something I'm not reading correctly.

It is strange to me that the work on the game would cause people to somehow feel worse about XMR.  It's not like rpietila is the main dev working on any of the other dev team projects.  This is just a cherry on top of the sundae.  I mean, if they came out and said, "hey, we're going to drop the GUI wallet because we've got this new game coming out," that would be one thing.  But that isn't the case.

I think it's because rpietila is seen by some as a major figure in Monero to the extent that what he says or does has a big impact on the direction of XMR. Whether or not that is technically true is irrelevant, providing that people look to rpietila for a sense of what the future holds. If I'm honest, the first time I heard about the game my initial reaction was to sell and to abandon ship, simply because it just sounds like a joke - if nothing else but for the simple reason that it's not going to have any effect on the price, nor is it useful in expanding XMR's userbase. I got into XMR because it was marketted as a serious enterprise that would deliver a credible anonymous coin with the ability to shift 6 or 7 figure USD volumes. I still believe this will ultimately be the case. But when everyone's talking about the 'game' being a major thing for XMR - I'm like, okay well that's fine, but at the same time not the type of ball park I was expecting. Perhaps if just as much energy was put into winning BTC-e I'd be more optimistic.

[BanditryAndLoot]

Don't be confused. The need for these people to publicly come here and claim that they're looking to sell their stash lies solely on the fact that they likely over bought something that they didn't really understand, and are now looking for any and all excuses to reduce the size of their stash or walk away forever, and they want someone to know. Or maybe I'm wrong, and they just don't understand the motivations that are in front of them, and have come to discuss the issue rather bluntly.

It's a healthy downturn, if you ask me, and these people need to vent their frustration somewhere so it might as well be here.

To anyone planning on selling at this point - I'm sorry the price couldn't go upwards to infinite levels, or never ever go down, for what that's worth to you in whatever place you're at right now.

I see the utility in the game as a fantastic opportunity to explore unique niches in cryptocurrencies. It makes sense as a niche, because video games have been played using points, or some other measurement system like wealth for decades. It seems like a natural evolution to me is all, and very likely the next niche that cryptocurrencies will move to collectively capitalize on. Specifically, if Doge showed anyone anything, it's that people are looking for entertainment in cryptocurrencies. Personally, I feel that was a frontier that has barely been touched even with Dogecoin.

As such, if I were to speculate, integrating a point or wealth system into games utilizing the unique aspects found only in cryptocurrencies would be an absolutely well-met idea. While I don't currently think it should be a prime focus for a core protocol development team, I can see the two separate development teams working concurrently to develop platforms in which the general public is already familiar with - in this case gaming.

Personally I don't feel that the general public is familiar at all with marriage on the blockchain, property deeds on the blockchain (bitnet?), even most forms of advanced encrypted anonymous messaging on the blockchain will likely fall on deaf ears, but perhaps introducing these potentially revolutionary concepts utilizing blockchain technology would be best introduced to them using a platform an easy 300+ million people are familiar with is gaming. By 'holding the teddy bear', these new concepts have, for the first time, the ability to be introduced in not only a non-confrontational way, but a friendly (and sometimes free and trustless) way.

I'm excited, and speculate a long-term uptrend is inevitable, provided Risto can tell a good enough story

add: I can see many parallels in the evolution of cryptocurrencies to the evolution of operating systems. Even operating systems on Tandy had disney games available, and I think it did an absolutely fantastic job at introducing the general public to computer usage in general. Imagine if all of your usage of the computer revolved around programming it, writing messages, or keeping track of documents, and no playing games at all. No minesweeper, solitaire, none of that. Sure, people would have gotten involved eventually regardless, but it's undeniable that games assisted the public in adopting operating systems/computers.

Were games the primary focus of OS developers? Not likely. Do OS developers constantly work with game developers to have their software work in unison? Damn right they do - MS worked with ubisoft to limit their games from 60 fps to 30 fps not so long ago.

Would I sell stock in Apple because someone made a game for use with its operating system? Personally, not likely. But to each his own.

[whap]

Everything in its time, to have a game is better than to not have a game. And who knows the possibilities it may offer if it turns out well? I could even imagine it as some sort of decentralized exchange if you want so...
Any effort currently done to progress XMR's inner and outer development is good for the reputation, marketing is half the rent. That's what Rpietila and some early BTC adopters did in the beginning, regarding there was no GUI, fancy Website or funny Dog memes.

My simplistic view of things:

New Website ---> more people attracted --> official GUI --> more people jumping on board --> liquidity increases --> exchanges(like BTC-e) adopting XMR/USD pairs

@rangedriver: You make a valid point, why not put in contact with MEW?

[dEBRUYNE]

I feel like I must be in a parallel universe or there is something I'm not reading correctly.

It is strange to me that the work on the game would cause people to somehow feel worse about XMR.  It's not like rpietila is the main dev working on any of the other dev team projects.  This is just a cherry on top of the sundae.  I mean, if they came out and said, "hey, we're going to drop the GUI wallet because we've got this new game coming out," that would be one thing.  But that isn't the case.

I think it's because rpietila is seen by some as a major figure in Monero to the extent that what he says or does has a big impact on the direction of XMR. Whether or not that is technically true is irrelevant, providing that people look to rpietila for a sense of what the future holds. If I'm honest, the first time I heard about the game my initial reaction was to sell and to abandon ship, simply because it just sounds like a joke - if nothing else but for the simple reason that it's not going to have any effect on the price, nor is it useful in expanding XMR's userbase. I got into XMR because it was marketted as a serious enterprise that would deliver a credible anonymous coin with the ability to shift 6 or 7 figure USD volumes. I still believe this will ultimately be the case. But when everyone's talking about the 'game' being a major thing for XMR - I'm like, okay well that's fine, but at the same time not the type of ball park I was expecting. Perhaps if just as much energy was put into winning BTC-e I'd be more optimistic.

unfortunately, i have to agree here. Moneros main reason to exist is to transfer money anonymously. How this game could help grow serious userbase that wants to use xmr as a way to transfer money, because they need or want the anonymity for what they do, is beyond me. it feels like a waste of energy in times where support seems to be so low and userbase is shrinking. I am sorry to say, but we do not need the people that hold 5 xmr somewhere as an in-game currency. we need serious people that want to transfer money anon, for whatever reasons there might be. Maybe its just me that got i wrong. I thought our main targted usecases would be hiding money, useing anon currency to buy illegal stuff and kick the contoll freaks in the ass.

Dnaleor is working on this. He has been advocating monero on the darknet forums.

[BanditryAndLoot]

...but we do not need the people that hold 5 xmr somewhere...

My interest is piqued. Why do we not need people holding 5 xmr somewhere again?

I understand the need for people to hold large amounts, but why not small amounts?

Add: Consider the Huntercoin blockchain as one gigantic mixer, because of how they implemented their game on the blockchain. While I admit that Risto's game has no likely direct tie the the blockchain at this point in time as far as operation goes, it has the potential to spur thousands of new transactions to mix with. When you have more mixins to pick from other than just poloniex's address, who benefits directly? You! . Your anonymity set increases with these multiple smaller transactions! This system becomes more functional. Assuming that smooth really did tell the truth when he mentioned that there's a possible way to prune the blockchain, and I would like to think he did, then these transactions will serve to benefit everyone! More mixins for the users of the program, and more transaciton fees for the miners. How can this possibly be a bad idea?


Also, you contradict yourself:


"Moneros main reason to exist is to transfer money anonymously"

is a vastly different statement from:

"our main targted usecases would be hiding money, useing anon currency to buy illegal stuff and kick the contoll freaks in the ass."

[TrueCryptonaire]

Everything in its time, to have a game is better than to not have a game. And who knows the possibilities it may offer if it turns out well? I could even imagine it as some sort of decentralized exchange if you want so...
Any effort currently done to progress XMR's inner and outer development is good for the reputation, marketing is half the rent. That's what Rpietila and some early BTC adopters did in the beginning, regarding there was no GUI, fancy Website or funny Dog memes.

My simplistic view of things:

New Website ---> more people attracted --> official GUI --> more people jumping on board --> liquidity increases --> exchanges(like BTC-e) adopting XMR/USD pairs

@rangedriver: You make a valid point, why not put in contact with MEW?

Exactly.
The game has no negative effect on the coin. Any coin will hugely benefit from such project.
It will suck coins from the exchanges.

Game creates value to Monero community since this is one of the first real use for the coin. When the game is opened for the public, it is 100 % sure that it will create new users for Monero.

The anonymity is great advantage and it creates markets for Monero no other coin can have. It doesn't mean Monero should only focus on this feature.

The bottom line is the same as whap said: it is better to have the game than not to have it.

[BanditryAndLoot]

Maybe i was a little harsh about the 5 xmr in-game people. i want to say they should not be our main targeted userbase. We should support adopotion where it is needed the most(dark markets, people hiding money from crazy gov) and NOT where it is needed the most less (in-game currency).

...

transfer money anonymously is a needed part for all the other usecases described below. I can not understand what you say.

I'm sorry for the confusion

I meant that this statement that you said first: Moneros main reason to exist is to transfer money anonymously

Is very different from this statement that you said second: our main targted usecases would be hiding money, useing anon currency to buy illegal stuff and kick the contoll freaks in the ass.

Because the first statement seems to describe what Monero is, and the second statement seems to describe your opinion of what it should be. I agree with you in both cases, but see that the usecases that you said will be helped a lot by having as many people hold small amounts of XMR as possible, because of the ring signatures formed with other people's mixins. It will result in everyone's anonymity on a protocol level increasing, because right now there are many rings being formed with Poloniex address mixins. Also, the increased transations on the system, will help the miners because of transaction fees. In 4 years, the block reward will be very low, and the network would benefit from many small people paying transaction fees, in addition to larger owners who really need the anonymity but don't transact every day.

I see the game, and other services like it, as being a crucial part of making this system operate as it is intended to - anonymous transactions using ring signatures of as many different people as possible.

Imagine: With cryptonote, a gang of whales is much easier to hide amongst an ocean of schools of minnows.

[BanditryAndLoot]

An on-chain dice game would maybe do this job even better

Gambling would be a great idea, I agree. One benefit to the game that I don't see with dice is that with the game, it can be a type of faucet. If it's a faucet, maybe it will cause people to want to play the dice game? I think the possibilities are endless once people get the money on their computer, maybe even buy more?

But this also means, in-game transactions must happen on-chain, and thats not really something we can expect from a game designed like the one from risto no? (i am sorry i am really not up to date with the design of the game, but in a game like this it would be much better to do in game transactions off-chain). i Can not really see how a bifg amount of on-chain trasactions can be realized with a game like that. Much worse, it would even complicate developement a lot.

You are right. Initially, I don't think Risto is going to do anything like this. I don't know if he will ever. But, the ability to have the decentralized exchanges for gold/XMR within the game could be implemented in a way that more transactions are made. Or, just knowing that there's someone out there with a few extra XMR to send right back to poloniex address from the main game address will probably at least create some kind of mixin value for the rest of the chain.

I'd like to hear Risto's thoughts, or a developers thoughts on this. I don't think it'll be at the same level as Huntercoin where every transaction is a movement on the game, but more XMR in the hands of more people can definitely be a good way to make at least one more transaction on the blockchain, when originally there would have been none.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we only offer to people who want this for "useing anon currency to buy illegal stuff and kick the contoll freaks in the ass", then everyone looking at the blockchain knows that. So, with a game, I think of it like doping in a transistor - maybe this will be the spark that sets this off?

[vuduchyld]

Thank goodness...some reasonable posts since my last one.  Rangedriver, BanditryandLoot, and others, too.  Thank you for making me feel sane again.

Great point that a little washout is probably healthy, especially if it is a washout of folks who don't really understand that they are making a speculative play on something that is still very much developing.

I just can't imagine how the game could be anything but either good or neutral.

Are there other use cases for anonymity?  Sure...dice game would be an example.  I don't have any idea whether or not any of the big BTC sites have a sportsbook, but to me, that would be a great use case for anonymity, as well.  Maybe even a differentiated site that features sports book.  I bet on sports using Bovada.  I have never been to Primedice or any of those sites because I prefer to play those games of chance on a live table.  But if the tagline was something like "Bet on sports using an anonymous cryptocurrency" I probably would have clicked on a link by now.

Furthermore, for sports book, one would also have a ton of other excellent potential targeted marketing opportunities, such as sports forums.  "Want to bet on the game?  Want to move money anonymously?"  A little primer on cryptocurrency and boom, you've converted some sports fans to crypto.  You could even be MORE targeted...when in the Texas Longhorns forum, you say, "Think the Longhorns can beat the spread?  Want to wage anonymously?" or whatever.

I think it's also probable that there are use cases in B2B financial markets that could be explored.  It's a little outside of my expertise, but I have a contact with a company that does secure payment systems and I've been surprised to know that they don't use any crypto at all.  They might have opportunities to lower transaction costs, and if they have any need for anonymizing transactions, I will definitely turn them on to XMR.

Feeling a bit more sane...I better go buy some more!

[statdude]

I am in the crypto world first-and-foremost for sportsbetting, second maybe poker. It would be quite simple to launch an XMR sportsbook. I've already talked to some of the trustworthy bitcoin books about cost to host and run one for XMR. I encourage someone to launch cryptonote sports betting or poker before I do!

On that note, I think a HUGE UNTAPPED potential for crypto some of you guys are missing is in the gaming space. That's why we've seen several pump and dump "Starcraft Gold" type coins already, but no serious efforts.

It's fun, and also an excellent case study for how to build services around XMR.

I applaud Risto for thinking outside the box and putting his money where his mouth is.

I'll also echo the sentiment that there seem to be a lot of old 80's/90's Civ/Turn based or RTS Strategy, or RPG gamers looking for something crypto-related. I'll be all over it, for one.

[UnicornFarts]

I am in the crypto world first-and-foremost for sportsbetting, second maybe poker. It would be quite simple to launch an XMR sportsbook. I've already talked to some of the trustworthy bitcoin books about cost to host and run one for XMR. I encourage someone to launch cryptonote sports betting or poker before I do!

On that note, I think a HUGE UNTAPPED potential for crypto some of you guys are missing is in the gaming space. That's why we've seen several pump and dump "Starcraft Gold" type coins already, but no serious efforts.

It's fun, and also an excellent case study for how to build services around XMR.

I applaud Risto for thinking outside the box and putting his money where his mouth is.

I'll also echo the sentiment that there seem to be a lot of old 80's/90's Civ/Turn based or RTS Strategy, or RPG gamers looking for something crypto-related. I'll be all over it, for one.

Another untapped value here lies in letting people bet against each other in skill based computer games that already exist.

[BanditryAndLoot]

Just as a reference, for anyone that's curious about plans for the gaming industry here's a pretty decent article:

Here's where it starts: http://www.cyberciti.biz/linux-news/why-valve-wants-to-port-2500-games-on-linux/

And now just this year, progress: http://www.zdnet.com/valve-announces-over-more-than-a-dozen-linux-powered-steam-gaming-boxes-7000024900/

Just after that: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU5OTQ

I see a lot of former and on the edge windows users becoming extremely familiar with open source software over the next few years. I see this possibly also introducing them to cryptocurrencies, if we can leverage ourselves into the right position for when companies like valve move even further with these types of initiatives. I'm sure Valve is not the only huge name gaming company working on this.

[nutildah]

I see a lot of former and on the edge windows users becoming extremely familiar with open source software over the next few years. I see this possibly also introducing them to cryptocurrencies, if we can leverage ourselves into the right position for when companies like valve move even further with these types of initiatives. I'm sure Valve is not the only huge name gaming company working on this.

I thought about this too but then it occurred to me why wouldn't a company like Valve just make their own currency that they have direct control over? I feel like just about every corporate entity would rather develop their own coin that use somebody else's. Its just the fiscally responsible thing to do. You guys could probably get jobs consulting them on development of Steamcoin or whatever, but I do not think they will adopt outside cryptos.