Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack

[Matthew N. Wright]

It's unlikely the exchanges are going to make this public any time soon.

It's funny how that works. They don't mind libeling and breaking their privacy agreement with a user to make claims that he's a crook publicly, but they don't want to post proof and run off of the forums with their tails between their legs once legal action is threatened. Priceless.

I've been looking through the thread but I don't see anything conclusive that says they pointed the finger. I've probably missed it as there are 50 pages.

Did they do the finger pointing first? I.e. they made it public first AND also disclosed private information.

Can I also clarify that this isn't AurumXchange we're talking about here but Bitcoinica?

It's the first post of the other thread. This theead is just Zhou's response to the madness as that thread turned into a witch hunt almost instantly.

[1715571314]

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[1715571314]

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[sadpandatech]

It's unlikely the exchanges are going to make this public any time soon.

It's funny how that works. They don't mind libeling and breaking their privacy agreement with a user to make claims that he's a crook publicly, but they don't want to post proof and run off of the forums with their tails between their legs once legal action is threatened. Priceless.

I've been looking through the thread but I don't see anything conclusive that says they pointed the finger. I've probably missed it as there are 50 pages.

Did they do the finger pointing first? I.e. they made it public first AND also disclosed private information.

Can I also clarify that this isn't AurumXchange we're talking about here but Bitcoinica?

It's the first post of the other thread. This theead is just Zhou's response to the madness as that thread turned into a witch hunt almost instantly.

aye, I stopped following about 20 pages back ;p

[repentance]

So the poster DarkEmi was confusing this event related to a identity theft for a small amount with Bitcoinica's funds (which are held by Intersango/Tihan)?

Zhou started this thread to provide information about the identity of the MtGox account hacker and he's currently seeking to recover funds totalling over $300,000 from Chen.  It's disingenuous to claim that this thread is solely about the $40,000 and $5,000 currently being held by AurumXchange.  Zhou, as much as anyone, has made it about Chen and the recovery of funds.

This thread doesn't have the capacity to determine whether Zhou is Chen, whether Zhou's friend exists or whether the $40,000 is legitimate money because it doesn't have access to the kind of evidence which would establish those things - we likely never will.

[Inedible]

It's the first post of the other thread. This theead is just Zhou's response to the madness as that thread turned into a witch hunt almost instantly.

I can't believe that was only a week ago - seems like a month ago when I first read that.

It is a bit unusual to release so much information without first speaking to the accused first. Doesn't seem particularly sensible either as it leaves them very exposed legally. Regardless, I can see why you think it's a case of double standards.

The $40K friend and Chen appear to be two separate people is this definitely the case or have I made that conclusion up in my own mind?

[Vod]

A police report from China really isn't what you think it would be. If like me, you live in a Western country and have a decent police force you might be mistaken in thinking that this would be a good way to go about things.

In China, you can 'influence' how a police officer sees things with something as simple as a carton of cigarettes. If you don't want to deal with a strong headed police officer then you can see the political head of that region and explain to them why the matter should go away. Also, when you're not present locally, it would be very hard to make a report, especially for something so complex.

It's one thing for the local police in China to deal with a local theft of physical goods but it's quite another for them to deal with a crypto-currency with multiple international jurisdictions.

While all this may be true, it doesn't stop Zhou from filing a police report.  However, no matter how corrupt, the police would probably ask simple questions like "What is his name?, what is his phone number? " etc.  Since Zhou would be unable to provide this, the police would quickly realize Zhou is making this guy up.  You and I can't demand Zhou provide proof, but they would certainly demand proof when Zhou filed an official report.

This is why until Zhou files a police report, a reasonable person has to assume he is making it all up.

[BitBuster]

Without blaming anyone, I
Release about half of the information to the suspect privately, and give him 12 hours to explain himself.

Why? You managed to digest AulumXchange's accusation, find that your identity had been stolen, find how this was in direct relation to the Bitcoinica "hack", work out who exactly was responsible and post a 1400 word defence of yourself just an hour after their announcement?

If you were instead given advanced warning and 12 hours to do all that, this forum would die because not even it would be able to process the amount of bullshit you would produce!

Shouldn't a person be innocent until proven guilty?

You are correct. Zhou should be given the benefit of doubt, I understand that. But it must also be understood that when Zhou offers stories without evidence, refuses to elaborate and answer (the many) questions put to him, it makes it very difficult indeed to trust him and is immensely frustrating for those who are trying to find the truth - whatever it is.

If only ZT had done the same. Instead he was transparent and vocal.

He's been selectively vocal. He has not been transparent because he refuses to answer some questions but it all to happy to provide responses to others. Indeed, at this point we cannot prove that any of the answers given are even correct - thus undermining "transparency" further.

Users have claimed that Zhou Tong works with criminals -- Yahoo's last CEO Scott Thompson lied about his tech degree, that must mean Yahoo are all liars and work with liars.  

Who is Chen Jianhai?

Chen Jianhai is my previous business associate. He was very familiar with credit card fraud and by my observations he's quite active in financial black markets. He didn't know much technical stuff personally but he has many technical people working with him everyday. He heard about Bitcoin from me last year from a random chat, and I have not communicated with him this year.

This and Zhou's other clear indications that he is some sort of criminal gangster shows that Zhou willingly engaged with this person on a "professional" level and despite knowing this, still left highly valuable access instruments within the grasp of such a person.


This thread is full of bullshit from all sides. There are many actors here who are able to throw significant spotlight and clarification on many of the issues but refuse to do so. All this does is arouse suspicion, anger and feelings of powerlessness. This crime is a plague on both houses.


BB.

[LoupGaroux]

Without blaming anyone, I would like to suggest a better way to handle similar situations in the future:

Release about half of the information to the suspect privately, and give him 12 hours to explain himself. This way you can use his explanation to check against the other half of the evidence, to determine whether it's a made up story or plausible truth.

After 12 hours, post the full evidence alongside with the explanation in public. It also protects privacy and encourages the community to act in a neutral manner.

BULLSHIT.

No reasonable business "release half the information to the suspect privately" there is no need to give a suspect 12 hours advance warning on how to craft his fabrications. You seem to have been able to whip up quite a few interesting and compellingly contradictory stories in 63 minutes, what would you do for the other 10 hours and 57 minutes? Perhaps create a couple of more identities for you future scams, or develop 17 new websites to fleece people out of their money?

You fucked up, and abrogated any consideration of privacy. You created a cluster fuck of a gambling system, ran it illegally as a minor (or ran it illegally under an assumed name without due process) got caught up in it and bailed out to some gangsters who thought they were smarter than you. What part of that deserves privacy? Where exactly in this very public seppuku of your entire life did you come to think you wanted "Privacy". Was it when you lied about your identity? Was it when you lied about your actions in recovering funds for the "investors"? Perhaps when you decided to proclaim your intimate relationship with Notorious Relic Dealer Chen as public property?  

Sorry sonny, but you decided to make this a public (and obviously fraudulent) mea culpa, and you have absolutely no right to any claim of privacy. You decided to shit this all over the bitcoin world, and now you will sit back and suffer as the whole bitcoin world brings it back to you. You will be investigated, you will be charged, and you will be held accountable. Whether you are some Obama loving otaku pinhead, Notorious Relic Dealer Chen's right hand coolie, or just some lonely, unloved ex-pat student struggling to makes ends meet pimpin' between Singapore and Australia, you will be found, you will be brought to justice, and you will learn the consequences of your actions.

[Inedible]

While all this may be true, it doesn't stop Zhou from filing a police report.  However, no matter how corrupt, the police would probably ask simple questions like "What is his name?, what is his phone number? " etc.  Since Zhou would be unable to provide this, the police would quickly realize Zhou is making this guy up.  You and I can't demand Zhou provide proof, but they would certainly demand proof when Zhou filed an official report.

I agree with what you. I'd add that I don't think it's quite as simple as that for ZT. There might be a multitude of reasons why he doesn't want to go to the police (I could speculate those reasons but it would just be speculation).

This is why until Zhou files a police report, a reasonable person has to assume he is making it all up.

I would agree too except if I were to assume he's making that up, it would be on the basis that I assume he's a liar which would mean I'd be as well saying he's guilty.

Instead, I'd rather say that this isn't any reasonable defence against why his accounts were used until he can prove Chen's existence.

The onus is definitely on him to prove that this person exists. Whilst a police report would provide the necessary proof, it certainly will prevent him from obtaining the rest of the stolen funds. Thing is, how else can Chen be proven to exist without turning Chen against him?

In terms of strategy, it's a case of what is the most important outcome?

1) Retrieving the funds only - keep Chen sweet
2) Punishing the thief only - Report to police
3) Both of the above - Keep Chen sweet, then make a police report once the funds are recovered

1) seems to be the route ZT wants to go
2) would result in fewer funds being returned but justice would be served
3) It's likely the bargaining chip in this would be that no police report is made if the funds are returned

Naturally this assumes that Chen exists.

[Inedible]

Shouldn't a person be innocent until proven guilty?

You are correct. Zhou should be given the benefit of doubt, I understand that. But it must also be understood that when Zhou offers stories without evidence, refuses to elaborate and answer (the many) questions put to him, it makes it very difficult indeed to trust him and is immensely frustrating for those who are trying to find the truth - whatever it is.

I can't disagree. ZT really needs to provide evidence or at least explain why he can't.

If only ZT had done the same. Instead he was transparent and vocal.

He's been selectively vocal. He has not been transparent because he refuses to answer some questions but it all to happy to provide responses to others. Indeed, at this point we cannot prove that any of the answers given are even correct - thus undermining "transparency" further.

I accept that too. ZT - you need to at least acknowledge the tough questions.

This thread is full of bullshit from all sides. There are many actors here who are able to throw significant spotlight and clarification on many of the issues but refuse to do so. All this does is arouse suspicion, anger and feelings of powerlessness. This crime is a plague on both houses.

Who else can help clarify? So far all we've heard from is ZT in this thread.

This is why ZT should have listened to everyone telling him to shut up and get a lawyer. By only selectively answering you give the impression that there's something to hide. By not even acknowledging the questions, it seems like you're trying to avoid things.

[Vod]

Without blaming anyone, I would like to suggest a better way to handle similar situations in the future:

Release about half of the information to the suspect privately, and give him 12 hours to explain himself. This way you can use his explanation to check against the other half of the evidence, to determine whether it's a made up story or plausible truth.

After 12 hours, post the full evidence alongside with the explanation in public. It also protects privacy and encourages the community to act in a neutral manner.

I never understood why you wanted to protect the privacy of a person you claim framed you for a $500,000 theft.  Do whatever you want Zhou, but I am posting right now to tell you this:

With the interest I have received, we should be hiring a PI early next week.  This PI will locate you in Australia and allow us to file an official theft complaint with the Australian police.

It will then be between you and the police to determine if "Chen" does indeed exist.  If he doesn't, YOU will be the one going to prison for several years.  If he does happen to exist, then you can be fully exonerated in the community, and we can turn our attention on him.  Be advised that the police are not going to accept your wish to keep his identity secret.

This one simple step is going to flush all the bullshit stories that have been floating around this forum.

[Inedible]

No reasonable business "release half the information to the suspect privately" there is no need to give a suspect 12 hours advance warning on how to craft his fabrications.

You're right - no reasonable business would release that kind of information at all because if they're wrong they're going to get sued.

You seem to have been able to whip up quite a few interesting and compellingly contradictory stories in 63 minutes, what would you do for the other 10 hours and 57 minutes? Perhaps create a couple of more identities for you future scams, or develop 17 new websites to fleece people out of their money?

If you've lost a lot of money in this, I can understand why you're so angry but what you're saying right now is you're absolutely, 100% certain he's done this. Without a shadow of a doubt, you know he's a liar. You conclusively know that he's stolen all the Bitcoins and cash. If this is the case, why don't you call the Australian police yourself? They would be able to locate him within a few days, possibly a day considering the sums at stake here.

You fucked up, and abrogated any consideration of privacy.

This isn't true even if he's guilty.

You created a cluster fuck of a gambling system, ran it illegally as a minor (or ran it illegally under an assumed name without due process) got caught up in it and bailed out to some gangsters who thought they were smarter than you.

I wouldn't go as far as to call exchanges gambling systems any more than I'd call a kitchen knife murdering equipment.

Sorry sonny, but you decided to make this a public (and obviously fraudulent) mea culpa, and you have absolutely no right to any claim of privacy. You decided to shit this all over the bitcoin world, and now you will sit back and suffer as the whole bitcoin world brings it back to you. You will be investigated, you will be charged, and you will be held accountable. Whether you are some Obama loving otaku pinhead, Notorious Relic Dealer Chen's right hand coolie, or just some lonely, unloved ex-pat student struggling to makes ends meet pimpin' between Singapore and Australia, you will be found, you will be brought to justice, and you will learn the consequences of your actions.

Whilst I accept that you don't believe there's even the remotest possibility that anything ZT has said is true, imagine for a second if you will that he's eventually cleared of all these charges and it turns out that Chen does exist, how will you feel about saying all these things to an innocent minor?

[Inedible]

I never understood why you wanted to protect the privacy of a person you claim framed you for a $500,000 theft.  Do whatever you want Zhou, but I am posting right now to tell you this:

I don't think he's wanting to protect his privacy. He's simply playing the best strategy to ensure his $40K isn't under threat.

Scenario1 - He gives up the ID of the thief. The thief naturally won't return the funds because he's going to face consequences regardless. ZT stands to have the $40K (which is still in his name as it's in his account) used to pay back the stolen funds.

Scenario2 - He waits until the funds are recovered and then allows the community to wreak it's revenge. It sure does look like he's trying to protect Chen's identity but in fact is also operating in his own best interest.

With the interest I have received, we should be hiring a PI early next week.  This PI will locate you in Australia and allow us to file an official theft complaint with the Australian police.

Why waste time and money hiring a PI? There's enough information here for the police to find him easily. If the local police are involved it could be done in a day. I'm surprised those with a stake in this haven't already called the Australian police. I can only guess that they haven't called the police because they would prefer to recover 100% of their funds in a few weeks rather than 45% (or whatever it would be once the police are involved) in a year or two when the case is finally wound up.

It will then be between you and the police to determine if "Chen" does indeed exist.  If he doesn't, YOU will be the one going to prison for several years.  If he does happen to exist, then you can be fully exonerated in the community, and we can turn our attention on him.  Be advised that the police are not going to accept your wish to keep his identity secret.

This one simple step is going to flush all the bullshit stories that have been floating around this forum.

For certain, ZT will have to hand over Chen's info. It'll be the proof everyone is looking for. However, it means that those with a financial stake in this stand a good chance of losing financially for that immediate proof. For ZT, he might feel that he would never see his friend's $40K again and then he'd owe someone else $40K.

You're right about one thing though - it would definitively prove which side is bullshitting. Either the angry mob are lying (that they know for certain ZT has stolen their funds) or that ZT is a cunning linguist*

*stolen from James Bond

*Edited - Copy/pasted wrong quote tag. Apologies to LoupGaroux and mlawrence

[DarkEmi]

While all this may be true, it doesn't stop Zhou from filing a police report.  However, no matter how corrupt, the police would probably ask simple questions like "What is his name?, what is his phone number? " etc.  Since Zhou would be unable to provide this, the police would quickly realize Zhou is making this guy up.  You and I can't demand Zhou provide proof, but they would certainly demand proof when Zhou filed an official report.

I agree with what you. I'd add that I don't think it's quite as simple as that for ZT. There might be a multitude of reasons why he doesn't want to go to the police (I could speculate those reasons but it would just be speculation).

This is why until Zhou files a police report, a reasonable person has to assume he is making it all up.

I would agree too except if I were to assume he's making that up, it would be on the basis that I assume he's a liar which would mean I'd be as well saying he's guilty.

Instead, I'd rather say that this isn't any reasonable defence against why his accounts were used until he can prove Chen's existence.

The onus is definitely on him to prove that this person exists. Whilst a police report would provide the necessary proof, it certainly will prevent him from obtaining the rest of the stolen funds. Thing is, how else can Chen be proven to exist without turning Chen against him?

In terms of strategy, it's a case of what is the most important outcome?

1) Retrieving the funds only - keep Chen sweet
2) Punishing the thief only - Report to police
3) Both of the above - Keep Chen sweet, then make a police report once the funds are recovered

1) seems to be the route ZT wants to go
2) would result in fewer funds being returned but justice would be served
3) It's likely the bargaining chip in this would be that no police report is made if the funds are returned

Naturally this assumes that Chen exists.

I am okay for #1 only if 100% funds are restored. No bullshit "he sold it at 7.2" thats NOT our problem.

[augustocroppo]

Why are you quoting mlawrence as LoupGaroux ?

Different users.

[aq]

Why are you quoting mlawrence as LoupGaroux ?

Different users.

Wow, a ZT style excuse. Different users, sure.... 

[Matthew N. Wright]

Why are you quoting mlawrence as LoupGaroux ?

Different users.

Wow, a ZT style excuse. Different users, sure.... 

Can't..tell..if...serious...

He's talking about the quote tag having the wrong author in it I believe. Probably just an editing mistake.

[Inedible]

Why are you quoting mlawrence as LoupGaroux ?

Different users.

Ooops - copy pasted the wrong tag - corrected now, thanks.

[Inedible]

Wow, a ZT style excuse. Different users, sure.... 

It was a genuine mistake on my part. Apologies again to mlawrence and LoupGaroux.

[Inedible]

Personally, I think ZT only has two things to worry about.

1) Losing his friend's $40K
2) Not recovering 100% of stolen funds for Bitcoinica users
3) Being known as a grass by his criminal associates


1) If he's innocent, the $40K can't legally be used to cover the losses. If the $40K is actually his, there might be a moral duty to do so.

2) If he's not interested in recovering as much as he can for Bitcoinica users and clearing his name, he should just go to the police. Someone might force his hand and just call his local police station but this would mean taking responsibility for delaying and reducing payments to the victims.

3) I guess that's the price you pay for dealing with questionable characters (unless you didn't know before hand).


* Edited: Removed local police station details

[LoupGaroux]

Apology accepted, but not needed. I accept grammatical errors as sine qua non for the passion exhibited on this forum.

Now- on to your points raised:

You are quite right, any business throwing out unfounded allegations in a public manner could get sued, if it is malicious libel. This appeared to be more of a public announcement directed at the hundreds of users of this community who are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars that have "disappeared" under the fiduciary responsibility of Zhou Tong who accept those funds into escrow.

I haven't lost a penny in this debacle. The only dog I have in this fight, as I quite openly stated in another thread several weeks ago, is to keep a solar flare burning on this issue so that criminal scams of all types will be found out, the guilty parties discovered, and the integrity of our community restored, along with the funds taken from the victims of these scams. His lies are numerous, and his mis-directions are clearly stated for all to see. Building layer upon layer of the story does not change the truth of the issue.

By bringing his story into a public forum, and pleading his case in front of the court of public opinion "Zhou Tong" has given up any reasonable claim to privacy in this affair. You cannot have it both ways, where only some of the story can be spread around to fit the agenda- either all of the story is private, or none of the story is private. Given that "Zhou Tong" himself started this very thread, and made very public claims of very private matters, it seems somewhat disingenuous to ask for privacy when the same consideration is given of his actions and information.

Bitconica was categorically NOT an exchange. It was an leveraged hedge speculation site based on projected future moves in the value of bitcoin against fiat. The site in fact had to rely on outside exchanges for conversion of fiat into bitcoin, and for the movement of payments. Speculation is a form of gambling, albeit one with a more socially acceptable reputation than others, but it is gambling none the less, and there is ample case law history that online gambling IS illegal in many countries. Your kitchen knife is safe from character assassination until it is wielded by my ex-wife, and then it became very nearly "murdering equipment".

Will I feel remorse if by some inconceivable alignment of the planets and the absolute veracity of the Mayan Calendar exonerating "Zhou Tong" from any involvement in this matter? No. He is by no stretch of the imagination "innocent", he crafted the gambling system, promoted it, lied about function and returns, lied about his own abilities when he sought angels to adopt the failure that it was becoming, and has consistently mislead, covered up and shaded the facts to support his own position to the detriment of all. I am not even convinced that he is a minor at all. There seems to be a growing body of proof that he may be buried under yet another layer of false identity, and no person could remain 17 for the length of time that he has claimed to be that age... at some point a birthday will jump up and kick him in the teeth, even if he is using some obscure Confucian calendar, he ages. And, consider the fact of where he chose to play his games. If you want to be considered a child for protection as a minor, do not misrepresent yourself as an adult in an adult world, and play at adults games. By his own statements he is the close associate of someone he alleges is a serious criminal, is this a child who should be accorded some special consideration because he didn't know what he was doing? No.

And a small edit in light of point #3 above about being know as a "grass" (or squealer in the US)... with the level of criminal he is implicating in this matter, and the not insignificant amounts of money involved- this grass will not be long for this world in that community. A good soldier will shut up and take his stripes in this type of case, do his time and be welcome back into the company of criminals afterwards. A squealer won't make it past the first couple of days, giving up Notorious Relic Dealer Chen, and his ilk.