Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM.....

[marioantonini]

Winning is possible for Ferrari if they invest money on their cars.
Mercedes is the team that gives money to RD, something that Ferrari didn't do during this season maybe because they thought that the season will not be completed due to COVID.

They didn't because there was no point in the regulation.
What is the point in investing all the money where you don't care?

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

the ferrari engine this year was absolutely disastrous, but unfortunately it was not the only problem.
If you see a lot of grands prix, the ferrari was also behind teams that had the same engine as it and could not overtake them on the straight


for me it was a mix between engine (60%) car (35%) and I also add a 5% of Vettel, he stopped pushing especially after the news of the dismissal

[Cnut237]

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

Yes, exactly. The reason Ferrari are uncompetitive this year goes right back to the ban on their engine. The problem for 2021 is only very limited development will be permitted, so they will surely be uncompetitive again. Whereas 2022 is a complete reset for everyone. It makes absolute sense for Ferrari to put all effort into 2022, and the start of a new era. You can bet that other teams - particularly Mercedes - are already working on 2022 as well. That's when it all changes.

My hope is that the planned 2022 rule changes have the desired effect, and we get to see closer racing with results more dependent on driver skill than anything else.

[Juggy777]

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

Yes, exactly. The reason Ferrari are uncompetitive this year goes right back to the ban on their engine. The problem for 2021 is only very limited development will be permitted, so they will surely be uncompetitive again. Whereas 2022 is a complete reset for everyone. It makes absolute sense for Ferrari to put all effort into 2022, and the start of a new era. You can bet that other teams - particularly Mercedes - are already working on 2022 as well. That's when it all changes.

My hope is that the planned 2022 rule changes have the desired effect, and we get to see closer racing with results more dependent on driver skill than anything else.

@Cnut237 Ferrari has already addressed these concerns, and they have acknowledged their intent for 2022 where they plan to revamp their engine and become competitive once more. Furthermore in 2021 I don’t expect Ferrari to compete at all, rather they’re just buying time till the 2022 upgrades kick in, and then hopefully they’ll begin to dominate once more like they used to do in the past.

Source:

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/940675/1/ferrari-won-t-be-competitive-f1-until-2022-says-chairman

[swogerino]

Winning is possible for Ferrari if they invest money on their cars.
Mercedes is the team that gives money to RD, something that Ferrari didn't do during this season maybe because they thought that the season will not be completed due to COVID.

They didn't because there was no point in the regulation.
What is the point in investing all the money where you don't care?

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

It was not only the Ferrari engine,also aerodynamics weren’t of the best.During their first glorious years Red Bull didn’t have the most powerful engine but they were absolutely the fastest in turns and this gave them some Championship wins.I think not only Ferrari but even other teams like McLaren can learn from this.

[tokeweed]

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

Yes, exactly. The reason Ferrari are uncompetitive this year goes right back to the ban on their engine. The problem for 2021 is only very limited development will be permitted, so they will surely be uncompetitive again. Whereas 2022 is a complete reset for everyone. It makes absolute sense for Ferrari to put all effort into 2022, and the start of a new era. You can bet that other teams - particularly Mercedes - are already working on 2022 as well. That's when it all changes.

My hope is that the planned 2022 rule changes have the desired effect, and we get to see closer racing with results more dependent on driver skill than anything else.

@Cnut237 Ferrari has already addressed these concerns, and they have acknowledged their intent for 2022 where they plan to revamp their engine and become competitive once more. Furthermore in 2021 I don’t expect Ferrari to compete at all, rather they’re just buying time till the 2022 upgrades kick in, and then hopefully they’ll begin to dominate once more like they used to do in the past.

Source:

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/940675/1/ferrari-won-t-be-competitive-f1-until-2022-says-chairman

The engine is still gonna be the V6 right?  That's all Merc imho.  And afaik, the 2022 upgrades level the playing field a bit from a financial perspective making smaller teams keep up with Merc, Ferrari and RBR.  

For Ferrari..  It could be something like LFC at football when it took decades before they won another EPL title again.  

[coinlocket$]

The engine is still gonna be the V6 right?  That's all Merc imho.  And afaik, the 2022 upgrades level the playing field a bit from a financial perspective making smaller teams keep up with Merc, Ferrari and RBR.  

For Ferrari..  It could be something like LFC at football when it took decades before they won another EPL title again.  

Yes, the regulation is strange about engines.

They will be the same but they will be different.

2020, no possibility to change the engine in the season.
2021, you can change the engine and the electrical part.
2022 you can change the engine no electrical part
2022 you can change the engine and the electrical part.
2023 you can change the engine no electrical part

2024-2025 Everything frozen.


They did this to limit the costs, without this elimination Mercedes was spending 300m/€ for engines and Honda 400m/€ pushing for catch up

[marioantonini]

The engine is still gonna be the V6 right?  That's all Merc imho.  And afaik, the 2022 upgrades level the playing field a bit from a financial perspective making smaller teams keep up with Merc, Ferrari and RBR.  

For Ferrari..  It could be something like LFC at football when it took decades before they won another EPL title again.  

Yes, the regulation is strange about engines.

They will be the same but they will be different.

2020, no possibility to change the engine in the season.
2021, you can change the engine and the electrical part.
2022 you can change the engine no electrical part
2022 you can change the engine and the electrical part.
2023 you can change the engine no electrical part

2024-2025 Everything frozen.


They did this to limit the costs, without this elimination Mercedes was spending 300m/€ for engines and Honda 400m/€ pushing for catch up

The limit of cost is totally ridiculous, no one can actually guarantee how much a Formula 1 team spends on developing engines.

the problem is that with these regulations you do not entice a new manufacturer to enter formula 1 for engines and from 2022 with the retire of thonda it will not be an easy thing, at the moment the red bull should be forced to use the renault engines again , I do not think they are able to make them themselves.
I hope stefano domenicali thinks of some radical changes to bring the show back

[coinlocket$]

The limit of cost is totally ridiculous, no one can actually guarantee how much a Formula 1 team spends on developing engines.

the problem is that with these regulations you do not entice a new manufacturer to enter formula 1 for engines and from 2022 with the retire of thonda it will not be an easy thing, at the moment the red bull should be forced to use the renault engines again , I do not think they are able to make them themselves.
I hope stefano domenicali thinks of some radical changes to bring the show back

Also, Redbull and AlhpaTauri when they signed a contract with F1 They did till 2025.
So for absurd if They can't find an engine They can't leave the F1.

I think they will end with Renault or they will buy the department from Honda I can't see any other solution.

For sure They don't want this Ferrari engine (next year who knows) and for sure Mercedes does not want to sell the best engine to a strong competitor.

Also, Domenicali can't impose the same engine to every team, Ferrari for example will never use a Mercedes engine for obvious marketing problems.

[aesma]

The talk about RBR buying the Honda "engine team" really surprised me though. I didn't think that was possible, but apparently it is.

[Naida_BR]

The limit of cost is totally ridiculous, no one can actually guarantee how much a Formula 1 team spends on developing engines.

the problem is that with these regulations you do not entice a new manufacturer to enter formula 1 for engines and from 2022 with the retire of thonda it will not be an easy thing, at the moment the red bull should be forced to use the renault engines again , I do not think they are able to make them themselves.
I hope stefano domenicali thinks of some radical changes to bring the show back

Also, Redbull and AlhpaTauri when they signed a contract with F1 They did till 2025.
So for absurd if They can't find an engine They can't leave the F1.

I think they will end with Renault or they will buy the department from Honda I can't see any other solution.

For sure They don't want this Ferrari engine (next year who knows) and for sure Mercedes does not want to sell the best engine to a strong competitor.

Also, Domenicali can't impose the same engine to every team, Ferrari for example will never use a Mercedes engine for obvious marketing problems.

You have a right point.
However we saw this year that Mercedes sold R and D to Racing point. They didn't sell their best technology but something near to it and they got deent money for it apparently.
Why not do the same with Red Bull? They can sell an engine that it is not strong as the one that Mercedes is going to use. This way they are going to have an advantage over their competitor for sure.

[swogerino]

The talk about RBR buying the Honda "engine team" really surprised me though. I didn't think that was possible, but apparently it is.

Honda had it brilliant days on 1988-1991 by winning 3 titles for the most skillful driver in my opinion Ayrton Senna.
They have the Japanese culture behind them and that means that if they want something they work beyond possible to make it happen.I think Red Bull buying Honda is a great move but let’s see if it will materialize.

[coinlocket$]

You have a right point.
However we saw this year that Mercedes sold R and D to Racing point. They didn't sell their best technology but something near to it and they got deent money for it apparently.
Why not do the same with Red Bull? They can sell an engine that it is not strong as the one that Mercedes is going to use. This way they are going to have an advantage over their competitor for sure.

Yes but in this case is Redbull and with the "second best" engine in case, Mercedes sells the previous year's engine they will be super competitive.

Adrian Newey is probably the best car designer ever lived so is a big risk anyway for them.

[dre1982]

You have a right point.
However we saw this year that Mercedes sold R and D to Racing point. They didn't sell their best technology but something near to it and they got deent money for it apparently.
Why not do the same with Red Bull? They can sell an engine that it is not strong as the one that Mercedes is going to use. This way they are going to have an advantage over their competitor for sure.

Yes but in this case is Redbull and with the "second best" engine in case, Mercedes sells the previous year's engine they will be super competitive.

Adrian Newey is probably the best car designer ever lived so is a big risk anyway for them.

A Mercedes motor for Red Bull won't happen. If the do Red Bull is much closer to Mercedes. Verstappen gets the best out if every car so then he will be a real candidate for the championship

[marioantonini]

Also, Redbull and AlhpaTauri when they signed a contract with F1 They did till 2025.
So for absurd if They can't find an engine They can't leave the F1.

I think they will end with Renault or they will buy the department from Honda I can't see any other solution.

For sure They don't want this Ferrari engine (next year who knows) and for sure Mercedes does not want to sell the best engine to a strong competitor.

Also, Domenicali can't impose the same engine to every team, Ferrari for example will never use a Mercedes engine for obvious marketing problems.

I don't know the regulation, certainly Domenicali can't impose the same engine on everyone, but it could force mercedes to give the engines to the redbull.
I have no idea of ​​the costs for red bull to buy the honda division and continue developing the engines, but if Mateschitz decides to make this investment, then he wants to get back to winning in a short time

[-CryptoViking-]

the ferrari engine this year was absolutely disastrous, but unfortunately it was not the only problem.
If you see a lot of grands prix, the ferrari was also behind teams that had the same engine as it and could not overtake them on the straight


for me it was a mix between engine (60%) car (35%) and I also add a 5% of Vettel, he stopped pushing especially after the news of the dismissal

I agree with you that it was not only engine, but a mix of much more variables at once. No only car, engine and Vettel. Lots of blood happened in the team and leadership behind the closed doors it seems and that resulted in this terrible season. I expect much more competitive team next season, despite it being the "transition" season.

[coinlocket$]

I don't know the regulation, certainly Domenicali can't impose the same engine on everyone, but it could force mercedes to give the engines to the redbull.
I have no idea of ​​the costs for red bull to buy the honda division and continue developing the engines, but if Mateschitz decides to make this investment, then he wants to get back to winning in a short time

I don't think he can't.
It's like Nutella must sell his recipe to other competitors to avoid their bankruptcy.

Why on earth the best team need to sell the best engine to create the best competitor for themself?

[Koal-84]

No talk or nobody watch the MotoGP race at Portimao at this amazing track? Sorry for all Fans from Portugal, the local matador Oliveira have a very impressive start-stop victory and at the middle field very good fights.

[AakZaki]

Source: https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2020/11/16/outpouring-of-congratulations-flood-in-for-joan-mir/357520

Congratulations to Joan Mir, he is MotoGp world champion of the Year. Too bad I didn't watch this last race. Congratulations also to Ducati for being the Constructors champion. This ended the monopoly between Yamaha and Honda for several seasons. Apart from that the races this season are very interesting because we have 7 series winners in 14 races if I don't miscalculate. It is also interesting that the dominance of the satellite team this season is beyond my predictions. The satellite racers performed amazingly, see Morbidelli he was in the runner-up position, Miler was followed (in 7th position), Quartararo (in 8th position), Oliveira (in 9th position), and Takaaki Nakagami (in 10th position). I think they will be tough rivals next season.

[coinlocket$]

Fan fact.

THE next F1 Gp will be in Bahrain where it rains like 1 day a year...
For now, the theater condition for the second weekend is rain. It will probably not happens but is a chance.

And if it will rain it will a mess, remember the GP will be run at the same hour but we have a different timezone and it actually is late evening/early night there.

With the rain the can't run at night and if it will happen the race will be deleted.

[LTU_btc]

Fan fact.

THE next F1 Gp will be in Bahrain where it rains like 1 day a year...
For now, the theater condition for the second weekend is rain. It will probably not happens but is a chance.

And if it will rain it will a mess, remember the GP will be run at the same hour but we have a different timezone and it actually is late evening/early night there.

With the rain the can't run at night and if it will happen the race will be deleted.

I don't believe that there will be rain during race weekend. But even if it will be, it's not a problem if they will havevto delay race. First race is scheduled at 5 PM local time and second race will start on 8 PM. So, it will be night races like in Singapore or Abu Dhabi.