Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM.....

[swogerino]

 I feel like this is a personal and individual thing that people can decide for themselves, if they debate it they can debate it but everyone has the right to think whoever is the best for them is the best for them. This doesn't need to turn into a statistics thing or a team thing or a car thing, racers are racers and if you like one you like one and if you do not like the other you do not like the other.

 You like schumi? That is great, support him and always say he is the greatest ever, you like senna? Great, defend his GOAT status as long as you are alive. You want hamilton to be the considered best racer in history? Go ahead and do that. At the end of the day in other sports we support teams, and even if our teams are the greatest ever or not we do support them, I do not see a difference between supporting a football team and supporting a racer, the only difference is the racer retires. There are also teams on f1 as well but they are not as much hardcore fanbase as racers, for some reason racers have more fans than teams.

Exactly.We can debate with each other as long as we can.For some Schumi is the best for me is the most boring driver of all time.I like driving style of Senna and Hamilton.For me Senna is number one and the first lap of Gp Europe 1993 shows that the skills of the driver.Now Hamilton drives aggresively compared to the other drivers followed by Verstappen.

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[Koal-84]

 I feel like this is a personal and individual thing that people can decide for themselves, if they debate it they can debate it but everyone has the right to think whoever is the best for them is the best for them. This doesn't need to turn into a statistics thing or a team thing or a car thing, racers are racers and if you like one you like one and if you do not like the other you do not like the other.

 You like schumi? That is great, support him and always say he is the greatest ever, you like senna? Great, defend his GOAT status as long as you are alive. You want hamilton to be the considered best racer in history? Go ahead and do that. At the end of the day in other sports we support teams, and even if our teams are the greatest ever or not we do support them, I do not see a difference between supporting a football team and supporting a racer, the only difference is the racer retires. There are also teams on f1 as well but they are not as much hardcore fanbase as racers, for some reason racers have more fans than teams.

Exactly.We can debate with each other as long as we can.For some Schumi is the best for me is the most boring driver of all time.I like driving style of Senna and Hamilton.For me Senna is number one and the first lap of Gp Europe 1993 shows that the skills of the driver.Now Hamilton drives aggresively compared to the other drivers followed by Verstappen.

That's all right but for me is Hamilton overrated. I hope he search after Mercedes a new challenge like Ferrari than we will see his real performance. Vettel think this same but he broke at a team like Ferrari als Alonso...

[wiss19]

That is exactly what I have said so far for a racer like Lando Norris for example, I accept that I am biased because I watch his streams as well, but that doesn't mean that I am wrong automatically. Lets chance Lando and Hamilton for teams, Lando will race with mercedes whereas Hamilton will race for mclaren and you will see that Hamilton will finish around where Lando has finished this year whereas Lando will finish at top 3 without a doubt and probably be first as well (maybe behind bottas).

So, why should we think of Hamilton like he is one of the GOAT racers? If one day he leaves mercedes and goes to a team that sucks and becomes champion with that team, I promise you that I will see him at schumi levels but until that moment he is just a racer who drivers the fastest car.

[LTU_btc]

Guys, you started interesting discussion here. Personally, I'm not big fan of comparing drivers, especially from different periods. For me it's similar when people comparing Ronaldo and Messi with Pele and Maradona. But I also want to give my input here.
Hamilton is great driver, there is no doubt about it, but I think he isn't GOAT. He spent most of his career in dominant team. I doubt that Leclerc or Verstappen would perform significantly worse in Mercedes. Offcourse, his rookie season and title in 2008 was something amazing. But when he didn't had dominant car, he even got outscored by teammate Button. Though, I don't think that Lewis need to move to other team to prove something, unless he wants new challenges himself.
And I don't understand hype when Lewis beat Schumacher's records, like most wins. Back then seasons were not so long, not like now when we have over 20 races.
I don't want to understimate Hamilton achievements, but personally I can't put him in same raw with Senna and Schumacher. I personally hated Schumi dominance in Ferrari, but I must admit how good he was. And I loved when Alonso finnished their dominance . As said above, Schumi came to shit teams and made them better. This can said about Mercedes.
Unfortunately, I haven't saw Senna racing, only saw some documentary and archive races. Annd damn how good he was. And to drive these crazy fast, powerful and unsafe F1 cars, you need to have big balls. I can't imagine current racers driving it. And it's the reason why it's difficult to compare drivers from different era.
P.S. Sorry for long post .

[AakZaki]

~snip~

All KTM at Brno very strong i also think the same at Austria the next two weekends. These 2 tracks are the standard test tracks of KTM, so I think KTM could have an advantage in tire management.

You are right, I read some articles  Senior racer Valentino Rossi also admit that KTM is very fast on the straight. KTM will be a concern for the next two tracks. In addition, I think this is one of the effects of Dani Pedrosa who is a Honda graduate, he moved to KTM as a development racer and he managed to prove in Brno that his team was successful. The problem of selecting tires is indeed difficult, at Brno Alex Marques also failed to show his best because he chose the wrong tire. The tire factor is key, I think and the rider's skill is what it supports.

[Cnut237]

If Hamilton consistently beats his team mates, consistently sets poles, wins races and wins championships, and from time to time produces astonishingly good performances (often in the wet) where he absolutely obliterates his team mate, then we just can't say he isn't the best ever, at most we can say there is insufficient evidence... but even then, I would argue the evidence suggests he's right up there as one of the all-time greats.

Just wondering what would happen if Verstappen was also driving at Mercedes. Think it will be 50/50. Don't think that Hamilton is that much better

I agree that Verstappen is hugely talented, especially using the example I gave of performance versus team mates. He utterly outclassed Ricciardo, for example, who is a good driver in his own right, to the extent that Ricciardo felt he had to leave for a different team! Hamilton and Verstappen seem to be by some distance the best two racers in the current field. We also have Alonso coming back soon - another great driver - I hope his car will be competitive.

The reason I think Hamilton is an all-time great and that Verstappen isn't, has nothing to do with talent, but merely that Hamilton is some years further along in his career. He has already proven his quality, whereas Verstappen is only starting to do so. It is likely that in 10 years' time, we will be looking at multiple world champion Max as one of the all-time greats, too.

I do still suspect that Hamilton would beat Verstappen if they were in the same car, but it would certainly be fairly close, and affected by the fact that Max has less experience to draw on at present. Lewis has, through experience, gained that champions mentality of knowing exactly when to take risks, and when to for example cut his losses and settle for 3rd place, he has the long-term championship view rather than just the current race. I'm not sure Max has that yet. I'm not sure Max quite knows when to hold back. But give it a few years.

[coinlocket$]

Ferrari and Renault made an official statement against Racing Point (again).

On the other hands, Racing Point has time till tomorrow to make an appeal against FIA and asking back for the 15 points removed for the illegal activity.

[swogerino]

Ferrari and Renault made an official statement against Racing Point (again).

On the other hands, Racing Point has time till tomorrow to make an appeal against FIA and asking back for the 15 points removed for the illegal activity.

I saw on F1 official page that the boss of Racing Point said he had enough of the accusations and will do anything in his power to prove his innocence.Since Ferrari and Renault made an official statement it means that Racing Point should have done something illegal.Whatever happens 15 point means nothing for the Championship but they are valuable for the next year budget of the team.

[Koal-84]

~snip~

All KTM at Brno very strong i also think the same at Austria the next two weekends. These 2 tracks are the standard test tracks of KTM, so I think KTM could have an advantage in tire management.

You are right, I read some articles  Senior racer Valentino Rossi also admit that KTM is very fast on the straight. KTM will be a concern for the next two tracks. In addition, I think this is one of the effects of Dani Pedrosa who is a Honda graduate, he moved to KTM as a development racer and he managed to prove in Brno that his team was successful. The problem of selecting tires is indeed difficult, at Brno Alex Marques also failed to show his best because he chose the wrong tire. The tire factor is key, I think and the rider's skill is what it supports.

That the tires work well is a fine line, and the riders have to adapt their style and the engineers also have to fine-tune the bike.

Ferrari and Renault made an official statement against Racing Point (again).

On the other hands, Racing Point has time till tomorrow to make an appeal against FIA and asking back for the 15 points removed for the illegal activity.

I saw on F1 official page that the boss of Racing Point said he had enough of the accusations and will do anything in his power to prove his innocence.Since Ferrari and Renault made an official statement it means that Racing Point should have done something illegal.Whatever happens 15 point means nothing for the Championship but they are valuable for the next year budget of the team.

Yes it's important for the next years budget, but so what the owner are a Billionaire 😎

[-CryptoViking-]

Guys, you started interesting discussion here. Personally, I'm not big fan of comparing drivers, especially from different periods. For me it's similar when people comparing Ronaldo and Messi with Pele and Maradona. But I also want to give my input here.
Hamilton is great driver, there is no doubt about it, but I think he isn't GOAT. He spent most of his career in dominant team. I doubt that Leclerc or Verstappen would perform significantly worse in Mercedes. Offcourse, his rookie season and title in 2008 was something amazing. But when he didn't had dominant car, he even got outscored by teammate Button. Though, I don't think that Lewis need to move to other team to prove something, unless he wants new challenges himself.
And I don't understand hype when Lewis beat Schumacher's records, like most wins. Back then seasons were not so long, not like now when we have over 20 races.
I don't want to understimate Hamilton achievements, but personally I can't put him in same raw with Senna and Schumacher. I personally hated Schumi dominance in Ferrari, but I must admit how good he was. And I loved when Alonso finnished their dominance . As said above, Schumi came to shit teams and made them better. This can said about Mercedes.
Unfortunately, I haven't saw Senna racing, only saw some documentary and archive races. Annd damn how good he was. And to drive these crazy fast, powerful and unsafe F1 cars, you need to have big balls. I can't imagine current racers driving it. And it's the reason why it's difficult to compare drivers from different era.
P.S. Sorry for long post .

I agree with you on all points honestly. I never had a chance to see Senna live, but spent a lot of time studying him later and he was all that people say about him.For me it is Schumi, Senna, Lauda , Prost when it comes to quality. Lewis is also great, I don't like him, but I respect his skills. He could be one of the greats, but I haven't seen enough of him in really difficult setting and under a heavy pressure.

[Captain Corporate]

 I don't get all the hate towards Lewis Hamilton, dude is a rock solid driver and I know that he is on a team that is miles better than any other team right now but that doesn't change the fact that dude deserves to be on that team, if you are a great team you will want the greatest racer, who would want to get the last racer of the league and put it on the best team? Lewis is doing awesome because dude is actually awesome, not just because Mercedes is awesome. Sure if he switched teams and raced for another team there is a big chance he may not be the leader, but give ALL the racers mercedes cars and I bet he still ends up at the top as well, he is definitely the best one we have right now, I don't know his general place but could we just agree that he is great and focus a bit more on the betting side of the things?

[dre1982]

Ferrari and Renault made an official statement against Racing Point (again).

On the other hands, Racing Point has time till tomorrow to make an appeal against FIA and asking back for the 15 points removed for the illegal activity.

Renault is still official protesting is to have the results of last races not definitive. If they stop all results will be definitive and can't be changed anymore. So they are hoping that also the results of the racing are being changed by given penalties. But I don't see that happen

[coinlocket$]

Some news:

Redbull maybe will join Ferrari/Renault actions against Racing Point/Mercedes

The boost mode for the engine will probably be removed for everyone in qualify from Belgium Gp, was planned for 2021

[swogerino]

Some news:

Redbull maybe will join Ferrari/Renault actions against Racing Point/Mercedes

The boost mode for the engine will probably be removed for everyone in qualify from Belgium Gp, was planned for 2021

Is it only McLaren and Williams that are staying quiet in this matter.I don’t understand all the protests against Racing Point as that would not change the outcome of this year Champion or winning car.It is still going to be Mercedes with or without the boost.Let’s see what happens in Belgium Gp which is the most beautiful track of F1.

[dre1982]

Even more news ;-)

The 'party' mode will be forbidden. Let's see what it will bring Mercedes. The rule will he active from the grandprix in Belgium.

[Koal-84]

Even more news ;-)

The 'party' mode will be forbidden. Let's see what it will bring Mercedes. The rule will he active from the grandprix in Belgium.

I also read a article about the Party modus and Mercedes with the strongest engine about 1000HP... and surprise surprise Ferrari with the weakest engine.

But only a article in German i found?!

https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel-1/news/mercedes-knackt-1000-ps-honda-nur-noch-mit-28-ps-rueckstand-20081307

Good for RedBull, Honda with the second strongest engine.

[el kaka22]

I don't get all the hate towards Lewis Hamilton, dude is a rock solid driver and I know that he is on a team that is miles better than any other team right now but that doesn't change the fact that dude deserves to be on that team, if you are a great team you will want the greatest racer, who would want to get the last racer of the league and put it on the best team? Lewis is doing awesome because dude is actually awesome, not just because Mercedes is awesome. Sure if he switched teams and raced for another team there is a big chance he may not be the leader, but give ALL the racers mercedes cars and I bet he still ends up at the top as well, he is definitely the best one we have right now, I don't know his general place but could we just agree that he is great and focus a bit more on the betting side of the things?

That is basically what people usually say in other sports as well, if you are a player that is on a great team and you win championships and you score or whatever you basically seen as a player who is just in a lucky situation, sure that doesn't take away from the talent, even here nobody could say that Lewis Hamiltan is a bad racer, you have to be a crazy person to say that, he is great, he is probably the best racer right now as well, however it does make sense that people argue if he is among the greats of racing, that is a totally different thing and I could totally see him up there or not up there at the same time, that is a small thing but a huge thing in discussion.

Being the best right now doesn't equal to being in the top 5 for example, but I would totally put him on my top 10 without a doubt.

[-CryptoViking-]

I don't get all the hate towards Lewis Hamilton, dude is a rock solid driver and I know that he is on a team that is miles better than any other team right now but that doesn't change the fact that dude deserves to be on that team, if you are a great team you will want the greatest racer, who would want to get the last racer of the league and put it on the best team? Lewis is doing awesome because dude is actually awesome, not just because Mercedes is awesome. Sure if he switched teams and raced for another team there is a big chance he may not be the leader, but give ALL the racers mercedes cars and I bet he still ends up at the top as well, he is definitely the best one we have right now, I don't know his general place but could we just agree that he is great and focus a bit more on the betting side of the things?

That is basically what people usually say in other sports as well, if you are a player that is on a great team and you win championships and you score or whatever you basically seen as a player who is just in a lucky situation, sure that doesn't take away from the talent, even here nobody could say that Lewis Hamiltan is a bad racer, you have to be a crazy person to say that, he is great, he is probably the best racer right now as well, however it does make sense that people argue if he is among the greats of racing, that is a totally different thing and I could totally see him up there or not up there at the same time, that is a small thing but a huge thing in discussion.

Being the best right now doesn't equal to being in the top 5 for example, but I would totally put him on my top 10 without a doubt.

Well said indeed.Nobody is disputing that he is great nor that he is among the greatest, what we were questioning and stating prior was that he is not on the same level as Senna, Schumi or Lauda...

He certainly goes on the list of greatest drivers, is it top 10, top 15, top 20 is another question and to be honest if you start digging through past and watching old races finding the answer gets harder and harder

From the top of my head I would say he would fit on my top 15 list, but not sure if he would squeze in on top 10 list.

[Juggy777]

I don't get all the hate towards Lewis Hamilton, dude is a rock solid driver and I know that he is on a team that is miles better than any other team right now but that doesn't change the fact that dude deserves to be on that team, if you are a great team you will want the greatest racer, who would want to get the last racer of the league and put it on the best team? Lewis is doing awesome because dude is actually awesome, not just because Mercedes is awesome. Sure if he switched teams and raced for another team there is a big chance he may not be the leader, but give ALL the racers mercedes cars and I bet he still ends up at the top as well, he is definitely the best one we have right now, I don't know his general place but could we just agree that he is great and focus a bit more on the betting side of the things?

That is basically what people usually say in other sports as well, if you are a player that is on a great team and you win championships and you score or whatever you basically seen as a player who is just in a lucky situation, sure that doesn't take away from the talent, even here nobody could say that Lewis Hamiltan is a bad racer, you have to be a crazy person to say that, he is great, he is probably the best racer right now as well, however it does make sense that people argue if he is among the greats of racing, that is a totally different thing and I could totally see him up there or not up there at the same time, that is a small thing but a huge thing in discussion.

Being the best right now doesn't equal to being in the top 5 for example, but I would totally put him on my top 10 without a doubt.

Well said indeed.Nobody is disputing that he is great nor that he is among the greatest, what we were questioning and stating prior was that he is not on the same level as Senna, Schumi or Lauda...

He certainly goes on the list of greatest drivers, is it top 10, top 15, top 20 is another question and to be honest if you start digging through past and watching old races finding the answer gets harder and harder

From the top of my head I would say he would fit on my top 15 list, but not sure if he would squeze in on top 10 list.

@CryptoViking I’m really surprised to read that you don’t consider Hamilton in top 10 racers of all time, because for me he fits in the list of top 5 racers who have raced in the F1. Also if you’ll have forgotten then let me remind you that, it was Schumacher himself who had declared in 2008 that Hamilton will be the one to break his records. Lastly each one of us is entitled to our personal opinions, but I feel that you’re wrong to say that Hamilton won’t feature in top 10 F1 drivers list, because in my personal opinion he’s rightfully earned his spot to be featured in the top 10 F1 drivers list.

Source:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/73827-michael-schumacher-lewis-hamilton-will-beat-my-record

[-CryptoViking-]

I don't get all the hate towards Lewis Hamilton, dude is a rock solid driver and I know that he is on a team that is miles better than any other team right now but that doesn't change the fact that dude deserves to be on that team, if you are a great team you will want the greatest racer, who would want to get the last racer of the league and put it on the best team? Lewis is doing awesome because dude is actually awesome, not just because Mercedes is awesome. Sure if he switched teams and raced for another team there is a big chance he may not be the leader, but give ALL the racers mercedes cars and I bet he still ends up at the top as well, he is definitely the best one we have right now, I don't know his general place but could we just agree that he is great and focus a bit more on the betting side of the things?

That is basically what people usually say in other sports as well, if you are a player that is on a great team and you win championships and you score or whatever you basically seen as a player who is just in a lucky situation, sure that doesn't take away from the talent, even here nobody could say that Lewis Hamiltan is a bad racer, you have to be a crazy person to say that, he is great, he is probably the best racer right now as well, however it does make sense that people argue if he is among the greats of racing, that is a totally different thing and I could totally see him up there or not up there at the same time, that is a small thing but a huge thing in discussion.

Being the best right now doesn't equal to being in the top 5 for example, but I would totally put him on my top 10 without a doubt.

Well said indeed.Nobody is disputing that he is great nor that he is among the greatest, what we were questioning and stating prior was that he is not on the same level as Senna, Schumi or Lauda...

He certainly goes on the list of greatest drivers, is it top 10, top 15, top 20 is another question and to be honest if you start digging through past and watching old races finding the answer gets harder and harder

From the top of my head I would say he would fit on my top 15 list, but not sure if he would squeze in on top 10 list.

@CryptoViking I’m really surprised to read that you don’t consider Hamilton in top 10 racers of all time, because for me he fits in the list of top 5 racers who have raced in the F1. Also if you’ll have forgotten then let me remind you that, it was Schumacher himself who had declared in 2008 that Hamilton will be the one to break his records. Lastly each one of us is entitled to our personal opinions, but I feel that you’re wrong to say that Hamilton won’t feature in top 10 F1 drivers list, because in my personal opinion he’s rightfully earned his spot to be featured in the top 10 F1 drivers list.

Source:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/73827-michael-schumacher-lewis-hamilton-will-beat-my-record

I don't see why you are so surprised. I said it is my personal opinion and I did not say that he wouldn't make it on my top 10 list 100%, just that competition is hard and that there are better drivers then him. He would not make it on my top 5 for sure, that I can say with 100% certainty.

And if you read the article properly Schumi stated that records are there to be broken in general and that Hamilton could break his records, not that he thinks Hamilton will surely breaks his records, thus insinuating his overwhelming talent as a driver But I will disregard this, because I would not think differently even if Schumi stated that Hamilton is the best driver in the world. I would respect it though, same as I do respect Hamilton, I just don't rate him that high as some do.

It is normal that Hamilton broke his records with this kind of Mercedes dominance, with more races in a season and on and on. Maybe he would have beaten Schumi records even if there was less races like before and less points like before, but we won't know that. I don't even think that it matters that much when we are talking about drivers and their skills.

There were drivers whose skill was obvious and were nowhere near beating records, but they are still considered as greats.