Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM.....

[LTU_btc]

Indeed, it's incredible what Max did today. Perfect drive from him and great Red Bull strategy. Seems that currently he is only driver who can compete with Mercedes.
Another great race for Leclerc - P4. He had risky 1 pit stop strategy, but seems Ferrari didn't made mistake with it.

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[boltz]

SuperMax deserved the win today and I'm glad he did it in style as that radio with the team made my day as he showed once again that his spirit is to battle no matter what the strategies think about the race. Mercedes was to afraid to go on 1 strategy stop in the 1st half of the race and I think it was the turning point of the race for them as they lost in front of a well think strategy of RedBull.

Ferrari is simply giving Vettel the worst car they could build and they're going all in with development to Charles and I don't blame them but personally I expect some words from Vettel against Ferrari next year.

[tokeweed]

Indeed, it's incredible what Max did today. Perfect drive from him and great Red Bull strategy. Seems that currently he is only driver who can compete with Mercedes.
Another great race for Leclerc - P4. He had risky 1 pit stop strategy, but seems Ferrari didn't made mistake with it.

^  And seems like he's def the driver next in line to be at Mercedes.    With rumors Hamilton to stay swirling around and I guess Bottas is just on a another one year deal thing(?), how possible is a Hamilton - Verstappen partnership at Merc?  ...  Assuming RBR sucks next year and Verstappen's release clause is activated.

Seems like it's def one way to get people interested in F1 again.  I didn't watch any of the races live tbh. 

[Cnut237]

Indeed, it's incredible what Max did today. Perfect drive from him and great Red Bull strategy. Seems that currently he is only driver who can compete with Mercedes.
Another great race for Leclerc - P4. He had risky 1 pit stop strategy, but seems Ferrari didn't made mistake with it.

He's a great driver, yes. I think however that today might be unrepresentative of the rest of the season. We had the perfect combintation of factors to give Red Bull a chance. Normally their car is a long way behind the Merc, and no matter how good Max is, his car can't compete.
What we had today were three things:
1) A very hot day.
2) A track that is known for being very very tough on tyres.
3) No hard tyres for the race, Pirelli withdrew them. This week's 'hard' were what last week we called 'medium'.
So these three factors combined to mean that tyre degradation, Mercedes only weakness, was hugely important. It is difficult to see the same thing happening too many times again this season. We need all three factors together really for the Red Bull to have a chance.

how possible is a Hamilton - Verstappen partnership at Merc?

I would say very unlikely. Remember the chaos and ill-feeling of the Hamilton/Rosberg years? Hamilton/Bottas works perfectly for the team dynamic, and Mercedes already have the driver's and constructor's championships sewn up. I can't see that they'd bring Max in whilst Hamilton is still there.

[perfect999]

I have always loved it when Mercedes doesn't end up winning, any race that doesn't have either bottas or hamilton at the top is a great race for me, I love watching these races and Max really just sent it at the end there, that take over after he got out of the pit and reclaimed his position instantly got published on f1 official youtube channel, we are talking about one of the best moves there.

I feel like if all racers raced in the same cars, bottas and hamilton would have been waaay down from their places, definitely not last because they are still quite great racers, but 20-30% advantage is probably their cars. In any case my boy Lando Norris ended up 9th today, not a good race from him hopefully he will recover and brings it next race so he could keep his position.

[coinlocket$]

Fun race, when they can't stop Mercedes the only way to make races fun is to create problems with the tyres.

Anyway, this was an interesting race should Pirelli do this thing with pressure every race to shuffle the results? In the end, the stronger will win but it will more fun to watch.

[swogerino]

I have always loved it when Mercedes doesn't end up winning, any race that doesn't have either bottas or hamilton at the top is a great race for me, I love watching these races and Max really just sent it at the end there, that take over after he got out of the pit and reclaimed his position instantly got published on f1 official youtube channel, we are talking about one of the best moves there.

I feel like if all racers raced in the same cars, bottas and hamilton would have been waaay down from their places, definitely not last because they are still quite great racers, but 20-30% advantage is probably their cars. In any case my boy Lando Norris ended up 9th today, not a good race from him hopefully he will recover and brings it next race so he could keep his position.

I think we cannot judge them like that.If we do then Michael Schumacher except the two titles with Benetton the others with Ferrari would not count because Ferrari was the best car back then.Hamilton is another level and he demonstrated it the first year with McLaren that he lost the Championship just because of one point difference.

[AakZaki]

At time a very good race from Petronas Yamaha and KTM, a little surprise this standing but at MotoGP can Mord Factorys win than at Formula1. So wait and see if the soft tires hold up until the end?

First win for KTM after 4 years and about 200 days after the start at MotoGP ✌✌ and first Rookie win after Marc 👌

My prediction was wrong. Fabio Quartararo turns out to be in seventh place, this is exchanged with champion Brno this time who started from the race from seventh position Brad Binder. He succeeded in becoming the champion in Brno this time. Yes, it is true that he became the first rookie since 2013 to win a series owned by Marquez. Currently Brad Binder has collected 28 points and is ranked 5th in the standings.

[-CryptoViking-]

I have always loved it when Mercedes doesn't end up winning, any race that doesn't have either bottas or hamilton at the top is a great race for me, I love watching these races and Max really just sent it at the end there, that take over after he got out of the pit and reclaimed his position instantly got published on f1 official youtube channel, we are talking about one of the best moves there.

I feel like if all racers raced in the same cars, bottas and hamilton would have been waaay down from their places, definitely not last because they are still quite great racers, but 20-30% advantage is probably their cars. In any case my boy Lando Norris ended up 9th today, not a good race from him hopefully he will recover and brings it next race so he could keep his position.

I think we cannot judge them like that.If we do then Michael Schumacher except the two titles with Benetton the others with Ferrari would not count because Ferrari was the best car back then.Hamilton is another level and he demonstrated it the first year with McLaren that he lost the Championship just because of one point difference.

Just to correct you a bit m8, Schumi's Ferrari was not the best car on the grid from the get go and not all titles he won with Ferrari are clear cut best car on the grid scenario. Do some reading and learning and you will see what I mean.

So those two scenarios can't be compared as the same.

[Naida_BR]

I cannot recall the race that Mercedes lost in strategy during the last 2-3 seasons.
They lost yesterday and Redbull got it from them.
Toto Wolff had to apologize to the fans for the mistakes they made but it was normal - Redbull got their risks and won the race. Congrats to Max for this great race he made.

[dre1982]

Fun race, when they can't stop Mercedes the only way to make races fun is to create problems with the tyres.

Anyway, this was an interesting race should Pirelli do this thing with pressure every race to shuffle the results? In the end, the stronger will win but it will more fun to watch.

Well they created the problem with the tyres for every team, not only for Mercedes. Red Bull and Max just managed the best with it.

And it was not only the tyres but also the heat which Mercedes couldn't handle. We also saw that last year in for example Austria where they also had problems.

[swogerino]

I have always loved it when Mercedes doesn't end up winning, any race that doesn't have either bottas or hamilton at the top is a great race for me, I love watching these races and Max really just sent it at the end there, that take over after he got out of the pit and reclaimed his position instantly got published on f1 official youtube channel, we are talking about one of the best moves there.

I feel like if all racers raced in the same cars, bottas and hamilton would have been waaay down from their places, definitely not last because they are still quite great racers, but 20-30% advantage is probably their cars. In any case my boy Lando Norris ended up 9th today, not a good race from him hopefully he will recover and brings it next race so he could keep his position.

I think we cannot judge them like that.If we do then Michael Schumacher except the two titles with Benetton the others with Ferrari would not count because Ferrari was the best car back then.Hamilton is another level and he demonstrated it the first year with McLaren that he lost the Championship just because of one point difference.

Just to correct you a bit m8, Schumi's Ferrari was not the best car on the grid from the get go and not all titles he won with Ferrari are clear cut best car on the grid scenario. Do some reading and learning and you will see what I mean.

So those two scenarios can't be compared as the same.

No need to correct me as I have been watching F1 since Senna times and the fact that Schumi hit the wall at Silverstone 1999 and broke his leg is only his fault and no one else.He would have won the title in 1999.Ferrari was at the same level if not a bit better than McLaren at those years.Then in year 2000 and above Ferrari was in another league just like Mercedes it is now.Schumi is a driver not well known for massive overtakings like Hamilton is and Senna was that is why his seven titles means nothing to me.Probably because I am an all time McLaren fan.

[Cnut237]

I feel like if all racers raced in the same cars, bottas and hamilton would have been waaay down from their places, definitely not last because they are still quite great racers, but 20-30% advantage is probably their cars. In any case my boy Lando Norris ended up 9th today, not a good race from him hopefully he will recover and brings it next race so he could keep his position.

I think we cannot judge them like that.If we do then Michael Schumacher except the two titles with Benetton the others with Ferrari would not count because Ferrari was the best car back then.Hamilton is another level and he demonstrated it the first year with McLaren that he lost the Championship just because of one point difference.

Definitely agree. Hamilton has proven himself a great driver. I know it is difficult to determine how much is the car and how much is the driver, but there are plenty of indicators out there. Firstly, how they compare with their team mate. Hamilton is significantly better than Bottas, and was significantly better than Rosberg (that one Rosberg world title was an aberration due in large part to Hamilton's bad luck that season, and I think Rosberg knew he'd never get another shot, which is why he retired straight after). And as you said, McLaren gives us very strong evidence. Alonso is a great driver, and Hamilton in his debut season was able to match him. Another good indicator of driver talent I think is their performance in the wet... and it's impossible to deny that Hamilton is a master here. It's difficult to see beyond Lewis and Max as the best two drivers currently in F1. We need to also consider that the best teams want, and are able to attract, the best drivers. If all contracts were up for renewal at the same time, then every team would want Lewis. You can't say that about most drivers. The best drivers tend to gravitate to the best teams. Take a football example - Messi and Ronaldo don't look good because they play for Barca and Juve, rather they play for those teams because they are top teams and can attract and retain the best players.

I think if we're looking for drivers who are over-rated and achieved success just because of the car, we don't have to look any further than Vettel, who has finally been found out and doesn't have a drive for next year. All that Vettel has really proved in his career is that he's better than Mark Webber.

[LTU_btc]

@Cnut237, yes, I agree that it's not likely that we will see similar scenario repeating many times this season. Mercedes is racing in their own league and to battle against them multiple factors is needed like yesterday. Mercedes had quite big issues with tyres.
@tokeweed, I think it's very unlikely. Two top drivers with big ambitions isn't such good idea. Remember stories about Hamilton and Rosberg, Alonso and Hamilton or Webber and Vettel. There would be just too much drama and big headache for team bosses. Bottas is perfect wingman for Mercedes, he don't mind to be second driver who is delivering podiums for Mercedes in almost every race. What else they would need?

[Koal-84]

At time a very good race from Petronas Yamaha and KTM, a little surprise this standing but at MotoGP can Mord Factorys win than at Formula1. So wait and see if the soft tires hold up until the end?

First win for KTM after 4 years and about 200 days after the start at MotoGP ✌✌ and first Rookie win after Marc 👌

My prediction was wrong. Fabio Quartararo turns out to be in seventh place, this is exchanged with champion Brno this time who started from the race from seventh position Brad Binder. He succeeded in becoming the champion in Brno this time. Yes, it is true that he became the first rookie since 2013 to win a series owned by Marquez. Currently Brad Binder has collected 28 points and is ranked 5th in the standings.

All KTM at Brno very strong i also think the same at Austria the next two weekends. These 2 tracks are the standard test tracks of KTM, so I think KTM could have an advantage in tire management.

[-CryptoViking-]

I have always loved it when Mercedes doesn't end up winning, any race that doesn't have either bottas or hamilton at the top is a great race for me, I love watching these races and Max really just sent it at the end there, that take over after he got out of the pit and reclaimed his position instantly got published on f1 official youtube channel, we are talking about one of the best moves there.

I feel like if all racers raced in the same cars, bottas and hamilton would have been waaay down from their places, definitely not last because they are still quite great racers, but 20-30% advantage is probably their cars. In any case my boy Lando Norris ended up 9th today, not a good race from him hopefully he will recover and brings it next race so he could keep his position.

I think we cannot judge them like that.If we do then Michael Schumacher except the two titles with Benetton the others with Ferrari would not count because Ferrari was the best car back then.Hamilton is another level and he demonstrated it the first year with McLaren that he lost the Championship just because of one point difference.

Just to correct you a bit m8, Schumi's Ferrari was not the best car on the grid from the get go and not all titles he won with Ferrari are clear cut best car on the grid scenario. Do some reading and learning and you will see what I mean.

So those two scenarios can't be compared as the same.

No need to correct me as I have been watching F1 since Senna times and the fact that Schumi hit the wall at Silverstone 1999 and broke his leg is only his fault and no one else.He would have won the title in 1999.Ferrari was at the same level if not a bit better than McLaren at those years.Then in year 2000 and above Ferrari was in another league just like Mercedes it is now.Schumi is a driver not well known for massive overtakings like Hamilton is and Senna was that is why his seven titles means nothing to me.Probably because I am an all time McLaren fan.

Exactly, you are biased and that is ok, what is not ok is to state things you state like they are a fact when they are not. He did not have to do massive overtaking often because he was the one in front and that was not only because of the car. Anyone who says that is clearly biased.

I have no problem people not liking some drivers, but when there is no objectivity that is another thing.

Schumi came to shit teams and made them better, lifted the team in all aspects step by step and had massive drives just like Senna did, unlike Hamilton for example whom came to top team from the start and moved to another top team after Schumi developed the car for him...Hamilton is one of the greats, no doubt, but for me he can't be put into the same slot as Senna, Schumi and Prost, I won't go further into the past.

[Cnut237]

Hamilton is one of the greats, no doubt, but for me he can't be put into the same slot as Senna, Schumi and Prost, I won't go further into the past.

It is difficult to separate effect of driver from effect of car, but there are suggestions...
If we look at the Mercedes record of Schumacher vs Rosberg (2010-2012: https://imgur.com/a/SSNQN ) and then Hamilton vs Rosberg (2013-2016: https://imgur.com/a/K9Ri4 ), then Hamilton looks the better of the two.

If Hamilton consistently beats his team mates, consistently sets poles, wins races and wins championships, and from time to time produces astonishingly good performances (often in the wet) where he absolutely obliterates his team mate, then we just can't say he isn't the best ever, at most we can say there is insufficient evidence... but even then, I would argue the evidence suggests he's right up there as one of the all-time greats.

[dre1982]

Hamilton is one of the greats, no doubt, but for me he can't be put into the same slot as Senna, Schumi and Prost, I won't go further into the past.

It is difficult to separate effect of driver from effect of car, but there are suggestions...
If we look at the Mercedes record of Schumacher vs Rosberg (2010-2012: https://imgur.com/a/SSNQN ) and then Hamilton vs Rosberg (2013-2016: https://imgur.com/a/K9Ri4 ), then Hamilton looks the better of the two.

If Hamilton consistently beats his team mates, consistently sets poles, wins races and wins championships, and from time to time produces astonishingly good performances (often in the wet) where he absolutely obliterates his team mate, then we just can't say he isn't the best ever, at most we can say there is insufficient evidence... but even then, I would argue the evidence suggests he's right up there as one of the all-time greats.

Just wondering what would happen if Verstappen was also driving at Mercedes. Think it will be 50/50. Don't think that Hamilton is that much better

[Koal-84]

I have no problem people not liking some drivers, but when there is no objectivity that is another thing.

Schumi came to shit teams and made them better, lifted the team in all aspects step by step and had massive drives just like Senna did, unlike Hamilton for example whom came to top team from the start and moved to another top team after Schumi developed the car for him...Hamilton is one of the greats, no doubt, but for me he can't be put into the same slot as Senna, Schumi and Prost, I won't go further into the past.

I also Jean the same as you, Senna, Schumacher, Prost and Lauda are different format of driver and team developer than Hamilton look at Lauda and Schumacher the are the only driver who managed to shape fFerrari over the years and to be successful, at the beginning Ferrari was destructive for both.

The actually Mercedes formed Schumacher, Wolff and Lauda. Hamilton is a good driver but he don't have from beginning a not winning team!

[Captain Corporate]

 I feel like this is a personal and individual thing that people can decide for themselves, if they debate it they can debate it but everyone has the right to think whoever is the best for them is the best for them. This doesn't need to turn into a statistics thing or a team thing or a car thing, racers are racers and if you like one you like one and if you do not like the other you do not like the other.

 You like schumi? That is great, support him and always say he is the greatest ever, you like senna? Great, defend his GOAT status as long as you are alive. You want hamilton to be the considered best racer in history? Go ahead and do that. At the end of the day in other sports we support teams, and even if our teams are the greatest ever or not we do support them, I do not see a difference between supporting a football team and supporting a racer, the only difference is the racer retires. There are also teams on f1 as well but they are not as much hardcore fanbase as racers, for some reason racers have more fans than teams.