Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Xialla]

Some people just want to see the world burn.

I'm just not so optimistic as you are.) otherwise, we are on the same boat.

[Phoenix1969]

100gh/s was a minimum, and we've since been informed there has been a 30%+ performance increase... Working chips will be inside machines, shipped, and hashing away during the last part of september, as always  stated. Nothing has changed, except good things happening. Get with the program, or quit spreading FUD.

[600watt]

cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.

[Ytterbium]

I agree that knc is most likely legit, but why do they need to perpetuate this insanely risky(for the buyer) pre-order model at this point? AM and the secondary market have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that in hand hardware for immediate delivery commands a significant premium over hardware paid for now and delivered in x months down the road. Knc plainly has the funding to become the second major player to only sell what they actually have, but they're passing on the opportunity to change the scenery and likely leaving money on the table doing so. Instead bitfury will likely wear this crown and it will erode knc's future sales.

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.

I also don't see much reward either.  I'm expecting my order to pay off by the end of october, and henceforth barely make anything.  

[WillMilk4Coin]

yes WE have, YOU just can't read

ohh, another superclever member of KNC crew;)
please answer me:
any results from testing - I heard something about 100GH/s but without any prove
any information from development/progress - pls check bitfury thread to see, what I mean
any working unit/chip - or we have? please, where?
any photo of complete REAL device - where?
any new video (yes, there were videos before KNC start preordering) - where?
information about shipping date (1st/2nd day explanation) - where?
once you will answer all my questions, I will admit my fault.

If you caught the article on coindesk from last week, you would know they (KnC) weren't expecting to have the chips this week, so we shouldn't be expecting them to either. How could they have results / tests / photos of a product that doesn't yet exist?

The company is still on track to receive its chips in September. “It won’t be at the beginning of September, I’ll tell you that,” Cole said. “Everything is still on track for me to have Jupiters in customers’ hands in September.”

http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-takes-delivery-of-asic-boards/

[Xialla]

If you caught the article on coindesk from last week..
http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-takes-delivery-of-asic-boards/

ahh, first valid reaction for my post. finally, somebody..thanks a lot dude, going to read it now, I missed the article.

[crumbs]

Some people just want to see the world burn.

I'm just not so optimistic as you are.) otherwise, we are on the same boat.

I'd consider myself a realist, not a pessimist like yourself. Sadly, being this way makes you safe from failure. Luckily for us it also stops you from gaining from success as well

I heard somebody say
   Burn baby burn
Disco inferno 0 00  
   Burn baby burn
Burn that motha down 'yall

(Taking dumb risks doesn't magically avail you of a chance at reward.  Some dumb risks are simply dumb risks -- step out in front of speeding trains all you want, it won't make you a billionaire, girlfriend )

[Ytterbium]

As fr as the pre-order model is concerned, there is nothing wrong with the model. The problem is the abuse of the pre-order model by some actors (ahem) in the bitcoin space.   I remember someone posting about how they saw an option to "pre-order" an Amazon kindle paperwhite and freaked out for a second.

But like I said, KnC is offering refunds at any point in time, and they are allowing people to pay with credit cards.  That's low risk for the customer.  

In fact, it's actually high-risk for KnC because people can order miners, get them and then do charge backs claiming they never got their system, or their CC was stolen, or for that matter  order with a stolen CC or whatever while mining away with ∞% ROI.  I would be... hesitant to go that rout.

I'm sure that it has been discussed before, but I really don't want to go through 400+ pages to find my answer. My question is about the pre-installed cgminer, more exactly, will it also have the "chosen" pool details already on it? Asking cause I've noticed those fields on the knc website where you can enter your pool of option, worker and so on. Or is that part of the knc website intended for customers that chose knc hosting for the miners? Also, is there a problem if 2 or more miners would mine under the same "worker"?

KNC will test your unit with those credentials.  So they will be installed at the factory before they send it to you.

[creativex]

The pre-order model flat out sucks for investors. At best it's a zero interest loan with the purchased gear as collateral. The gear that hasn't been built yet mind you. Yes knc is offering refunds and I wouldn't even have given them a second look otherwise, but we need to move beyond this ridiculous sales model. Just because you can get a refund doesn't mean you don't have losses. Those that are ordering are plainly interested in BTC and as such have numerous investment opportunities. When knc announced their plans to develop this hardware those that invested made their choice. Whether it was the right choice or not remains to be seen, but if they paid with BTC at that time then they're already way behind because they locked in an exchange rate that was most likely lower than it is now. If they paid with fiat then they likely could've purchased BTC directly and been better off. Again, nothing against knc as they've acted in good faith thus far, I'm just disappointed that they've not helped to move us beyond this pre-order model and it's lopsided share of the risks heaped upon investors.

[ImI]

as soon as you can buy asics from the shelf there wont be any profit anymore to gather

people are willing to pay to high prices for those asics regarding the future difficulty and that leads to overpriced asic hardware

if you are lucky you will make marginal profits like 5% a year

no preorder = no whining = no gain

edit: investomers is a good term cause its exactly what we are doing. we are basically funding a startup. usually you arent able to do so as a small investor cause its the job of big venture capital firms, but we are in a special situation as bitcoin far from being established and the usual partners like banks and venture capital stay away as soon as they hear "bitcoin". so THATS the reason we are allowed to gather good profits as investomers.

[Bitcoinorama]

Guys I've never expected to see a chip until 2nd/3rd week of September earliest. They will literally be testing the chip as soon as they have it packaged and sent to them, they have always known the date they will receive it, from the date they settled the NRE with the fab. They will go straight into production from there. I anticipate early 20's this month for chip info. I got that impression from the openday. I will be worried if I still hear no chip info around 27th. I'm not bothered about a bet that ends on the 1st of October, I'm bothered if I see no chip by the 1st of October. That's the point I'll be twitchy and concerned, if you're feeling like that now you clearly have not read anything about what I wrote or what they have written. It's always been end of September in my mind and i'm cool as a cucumber currently. The fact that Scandanavia's largest bank has partnered with them is massive news, SEB aren't about to be made fools of, and will have ultra stringent criteria, so all's gravy in my mind. Whether the chip performs as anticipated, well that's down to margins upon margins, that said this is is the only pessimistic company in the race. True scientists and engineers are, until they have statistically significant data, the rest of the playing field are hyping simulated data and best case scenarios, that's not science, that's marketing, and unachievable.

My background is in science, engineering, finance and adland. I can tell fact from fiction. You don't need to believe me, just know I'm very content. Make your own minds up, but ffs at least read up so we're singing from the same hymn sheet.

[nightengale]

cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.

Agreed. I'd like to see a little less of the fan-boys piling on when someone asks valid questions.

[creativex]

as soon as you can buy asics from the shelf there wont be any profit anymore to gather

people are willing to pay to high prices for those asics regarding the future difficulty and that leads to overpriced asic hardware

if you are lucky you will make marginal profits like 5% a year

no preorder = no whining = no gain

edit: investomers is a good term cause its exactly what we are doing. we are basically funding a startup. usually you arent able to do so as a small investor cause its the job of big venture capital firms, but we are in a special situation as bitcoin far from being established and the usual partners like banks and venture capital stay away as soon as they hear "bitcoin". so THATS the reason we are allowed to gather good profits as investomers.

We'll get there anyway, the market will always seek equilibrium. Mining will eventually be only marginally profitable just as it has been in the past. The reason in hand gear commands a premium is because there's historically been a tightly restricted supply and lots of pent up demand due to non-performance by pre-order vendors. That is changing as more and more pre-order gear is introduced to the secondary market and more vendors emerge.

[erk]

The pre-order model flat out sucks for investors. At best it's a zero interest loan with the purchased gear as collateral. The gear that hasn't been built yet mind you. Yes knc is offering refunds and I wouldn't even have given them a second look otherwise, but we need to move beyond this ridiculous sales model. Just because you can get a refund doesn't mean you don't have losses. Those that are ordering are plainly interested in BTC and as such have numerous investment opportunities. When knc announced their plans to develop this hardware those that invested made their choice. Whether it was the right choice or not remains to be seen, but if they paid with BTC at that time then they're already way behind because they locked in an exchange rate that was most likely lower than it is now. If they paid with fiat then they likely could've purchased BTC directly and been better off. Again, nothing against knc as they've acted in good faith thus far, I'm just disappointed that they've not helped to move us beyond this pre-order model and it's lopsided share of the risks heaped upon investors.

The pre-order model is the kick start from hell, I hate it, too many ASIC chip makers already from this, killing the ROI for all. Most of the ASIC makers will eventually die as moore's law fails to keep up with the difficulty increases. Unless something changes, I see the future of ASIC miners as small backyard low overhead operations, the data center model will come and go quickly. Big farms wont be competitive as the cost of electricity, aircon, staff wages, space rental, kills the ROI, whilst the small backyarder with no-aircon still makes a profit and keeps the net alive.

[Ytterbium]

The pre-order model flat out sucks for investors. At best it's a zero interest loan with the purchased gear as collateral.

No, it's an extremely high interest loan, with the interest being the difference in value between what you paid and the actual value of the gear. The collateral is the money you loaned them.

There is nothing wrong with credit.  Credit is how people pool their money to make things happen in a capitalist economy.
There is nothing wrong with it. Without credit, only rich people would be able to start businesses.

If you don't like it, you can move to a socialist Nordic country, like Sweeden... er... wait

The problem with pre-orders is that they can be abused to sucker money from people who don't know what they're doing.  That's what BFL did.  That's what I think HashFast is doing.  But I don't think KnC is doing it.

The gear that hasn't been built yet mind you. Yes knc is offering refunds and I wouldn't even have given them a second look otherwise, but we need to move beyond this ridiculous sales model. Just because you can get a refund doesn't mean you don't have losses. Those that are ordering are plainly interested in BTC and as such have numerous investment opportunities.

Yeah dude you can cancel whenever you want.  You can cancel if you think the diff is going to be too high or you can cancel if you want to buy ActiveMining or IceDrill shares. You can cancel the day before they ship.  

[JoelKatz]

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.

Then you're just not looking very hard.

Refunds would cause customers to experience exchange losses. Someone who paid 39 Bitcoins for a Saturn two months ago would at most get 32 Bitcoins back, a loss of over $800.

But more importantly, if something gains value and then loses that value, you cannot argue that nobody was harmed. There can be people who bought in the middle, at the inflated price, who now are stuck with much less than they paid. Pro-orders have gained value. Someone who bought the right to a Saturn ordered two months ago for 45 Bitcoins today (which is reasonable) would be out the value of the expected profits that he had paid for, getting 32 Bitcoins back for the 45 Bitcoins he spent.

Loss of future expected value *is* a real present loss because expected values can be sold, traded, borrowed against, and so on. Of course part of the nature of future expected values is that they're accompanied by risk -- lots of risk. Everyone who has a pre-order has future expected value at risk.

[creativex]

The problem with pre-orders is that they can be abused to sucker money from people who don't know what they're doing.  That's what BFL did.  That's what I think HashFast is doing.  But I don't think KnC is doing it.

...don't forget Avalon and their outright theft using the pre-order model.

Even *IF* the vendor in question acts honorably then there's still huge risks of delays and the investor gets to eat all those losses as well. When one pre-orders gear for delivery far into the future they're forced to speculate on the profitability of that gear if & when it ever arrives. Obviously some of knc's early investors couldn't possibly have done this with any accuracy due to predictably unpredictable events(new vendors emerging...etc). I personally find it difficult to accurately predict the profitability of gear I can buy for delivery even a few weeks into the future and it's getting worse now with more vendors entering the field.

[timmmers]

cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.

Agreed. I'd like to see a little less of the fan-boys piling on when someone asks valid questions.

Valid questions? Where were they?
We all know the schedule and that there won't be any working rigs planned for now so how the hell can there be any of the tests or pics or anything other than the info we've all seen already (including that article the troll rushed off to read that was linked in this thread long ago but obviously not read by someone keen on spreading negativity).

Like  through the keyhole, the clues are here, you just need to see them.
If pointing out that the time for a working rig hasn't come yet is being a fanboy that's fine with me...round these parts we call it literacy.

[Xialla]

cm on guys, let´s stay friendly. i think his questions are valid. getting nervous myself. could use some calming lines from knc.

Agreed. I'd like to see a little less of the fan-boys piling on when someone asks valid questions.

yes, +1. btw, if you deeply check this thread, is so easy to recognize members of this fan-boys KNC crew - they have answer for anything and you are always so pessimistic, troll or simply without reading skill. again and again, they still blindly advocate KNC without any argument or fact. my answers will be without any valid reaction from their side and once I will check this thread again, there will be 5 more useless pages..

[Kuroth]

Did the CGMiner guys ever get their Knc ASIC so they can develop and test yet?  Or are they only going to get 1 day to do that just like Knc is only going to have 1 day to test and ship all the Sept Orders?