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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012892 times)
bbxx
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August 30, 2013, 12:08:44 PM
 #7701

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

i am not complete idiot

consider icedrill, petahash, hashfast, bfl, asicminer, avalon chips, bitfury, knc, cointerra, vnc, labcoin, bitgarden and others
all will be shipping late october/november when your knc unicorn will be paid in half (if you ordered early)
after that you will be getting less and less till nothing

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.
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August 30, 2013, 12:09:41 PM
 #7702

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.
Can you do some calculations with your estimations for Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec? Including all possible vendors.
Interesting to see the results!
Thanks.
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August 30, 2013, 12:13:01 PM
 #7703

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.

so now you've changed your mind, haven't you?

b/c a few post above, you stated:

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

am I missing something obvious ?

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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August 30, 2013, 12:13:10 PM
 #7704

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.
Can you do some calculations with your estimations for Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec? Including all possible vendors.
Interesting to see the results!
Thanks.

I've requested the Genesis Block adds this feature. it will be way more realistic, and a lot more fun strategically.

Make my day! Say thanks if you found me helpful Smiley BTC Address --->
1487ThaKjezGA6SiE8fvGcxbgJJu6XWtZp
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August 30, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
 #7705

Knc will be at best scenario delivered the first machines at middle of October
I think that of course will be sometime at end of october
Because knc have to
Realize chip
Do pcb test with chip
Write code
And at best scenario these will take a month from the time that they will have the chip
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August 30, 2013, 12:17:25 PM
 #7706

I'm totally ROFL and LMAO at the same time. Promises.

I don't think Cointerra is raising the funds they need to launch in December either.  They seem to need non-recourse pre-order payments.

In an interview with Anandtech recently they dodged the question that asked whether BFL will sport THEIR chip on the Monarch. That would probably be the only way BFL can actually deliver anything but it would also mean Cointerra can probably raise the funds needed if BFL invested in them.
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August 30, 2013, 12:18:18 PM
 #7707

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.

so now you've changed your mind, haven't you?

b/c a few post above, you stated:

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

am I missing something obvious ?


yes, you are missing that you could make roi with other hardware...
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August 30, 2013, 12:21:42 PM
 #7708

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.

so now you've changed your mind, haven't you?

b/c a few post above, you stated:

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

am I missing something obvious ?


yes, you are missing that you could make roi with other hardware...

AGAIN ....no proof....you're being a FUDspreader.

bbxx
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August 30, 2013, 12:25:57 PM
 #7709

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.

so now you've changed your mind, haven't you?

b/c a few post above, you stated:

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

am I missing something obvious ?


yes, you are missing that you could make roi with other hardware...

AGAIN ....no proof....you're being a FUDspreader.

i cant prove future,
but read custom hardware section, group buys and securities
there is the truth.

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August 30, 2013, 12:27:23 PM
 #7710

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.

so now you've changed your mind, haven't you?

b/c a few post above, you stated:

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

am I missing something obvious ?


yes, you are missing that you could make roi with other hardware...

if you say so it should be true then

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
SirWizz
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August 30, 2013, 12:31:13 PM
 #7711

cool down guys. it is dramatic but not desperate.


imagine one ordered and paid 10 jupiters.

with a difficulty of 100 mio this nice little mining farm would hash 20 btc per day.
with a difficulty of 1000 mio it would hash 2 btc per day.
with a difficulty of 2000 mio it would hash 1 btc per day.

that would mean that there is the equivalent of 3599 mining farms of this size around competing with ours. (3600 coins per day are available)
it needs 1800 x 10 jupiters for the difficulty to rise to 1000 mio. 18 000 jupiters cost 126 mio $. (i know there will be more efficient miners in the future, but there were also less efficient/more expensive ones in the past - so let´s just assume this levels out)

btc mining needs a "market capitalization" of 126 mio $ for the difficulty to rise towards a level, when a 70k investment makes 60 btc per month, at current gox = 7800,- $. even under those circumstances hardware break even would be possible in less then 10 months. if btc price doubles even 250 mio $ of purchased mining equippment wouldn´t kill roi forever.

i don´t see more then 100 mio $ going into mining in the near future.

if it works with 10 jupiters it will also work with just one.

Indeed. You need about 11 PH for your average miner (let's say 400 GH/s) to only break even in terms of electricity costs (assuming 10 cents / kW). A back of the napkin calculation shows that assuming an average cost of 17$/GH to the end user, the cost to produce 11 PH of hashing power would be so high that it would take the bitcoins produced in the next year and a half to pay for this at 100 dollars per bitcoin.

So there you have it, if somehow people invest 100+ million in hardware well let's just say that it will the ASIC makers that make the money and not the miners Smiley.
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August 30, 2013, 12:32:16 PM
 #7712

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

Oh, the innocent, unbridled optimism of the little ones!  It melts my black little heart and microwaves it on "low" for 5 minutes.
Then i remember how many *other* ASIC companies are coming to our party, each with shitty table manners, to hoover up our delicious caek.

TL;DR:  With all the pre-order schemes maturing just around the same time, mining will be unprofitable.  For just about everyone.  Because preorder.
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August 30, 2013, 12:36:47 PM
 #7713

PSU info from UK  (Jupiter) Miner.

I have purchased this PSU.  http://www.dabs.com/products/akasa-850w-cobra-modular-power-supply--psu--with-strip-ribbon-cabling-8QPK.html?q=akasa%20psu&src=16

Bridging Plug from ebay.  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phobya-ATX-Bridging-Plug-24-Pin-Black-/231039442858?pt=UK_Computing_Water_Cooling&hash=item35cb061faa

Also Info from KnC the PCI-E connections on the miners are 6-Pin.

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August 30, 2013, 12:46:57 PM
 #7714

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

Oh, the innocent, unbridled optimism of the little ones!  It melts my black little heart and microwaves it on "low" for 5 minutes.
Then i remember how many *other* ASIC companies are coming to our party, each with shitty table manners, to hoover up our delicious caek.

TL;DR:  With all the pre-order schemes maturing just around the same time, mining will be unprofitable.  For just about everyone.  Because preorder.

If only it were as simple as that.  If mining companies' prices are too high for anyone to see ROI, eventually that will result in no one ordering them.  So then the difficulty levels off and it becomes profitable again.  It's not a linear system, and it's much more difficult to predict profitability than you claim.
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August 30, 2013, 12:48:47 PM
 #7715

electricity power > bitcoins mined

No-one is going to run an Avalon if they are only mining $1 a day whilst electricity costs more than $4
No-one is going to run a BFL unit if they are only mining $1 a day whilst electricity costs more than $2

Now apply that logic to almost every miner out there.

In the long run, only the best efficiency/price wins. And currently, that's about most of the 28nm miners. KNC included.

So to say in 6 months time, you'll be running your miner at a lost is a bit unrealistic (that's where calculators don't take account these type of stuff)

Yes let's add all the miners and fast forward one year. And look at that. About half of the miners won't be running due to non-profitability.

Of-course more 28nm tech/miners will come out but by that time, most KNC miners would have already profited ages ago.

And then you can decide if you want to invest in the next biggest thing. It's a vicious cycle.
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August 30, 2013, 12:51:20 PM
 #7716

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

Oh, the innocent, unbridled optimism of the little ones!  It melts my black little heart and microwaves it on "low" for 5 minutes.
Then i remember how many *other* ASIC companies are coming to our party, each with shitty table manners, to hoover up our delicious caek.

TL;DR:  With all the pre-order schemes maturing just around the same time, mining will be unprofitable.  For just about everyone.  Because preorder.

If only it were as simple as that.  If mining companies' prices are too high for anyone to see ROI, eventually that will result in no one ordering them.  So then the difficulty levels off and it becomes profitable again.  It's not a linear system, and it's much more difficult to predict profitability than you claim.

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

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August 30, 2013, 12:54:46 PM
 #7717

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone will unprofitable? So they will turn off their miners?

So in about a year's time, I can start CPU mining again? Shocked Awesome.

 Grin Roll Eyes
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August 30, 2013, 12:58:18 PM
 #7718

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone will unprofitable? So they will turn off their miners?

So in about a year's time, I can start CPU mining again? Shocked Awesome.

 Grin Roll Eyes
Why not? Enter Primecoin!!!
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August 30, 2013, 12:58:54 PM
 #7719

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

Oh, the innocent, unbridled optimism of the little ones!  It melts my black little heart and microwaves it on "low" for 5 minutes.
Then i remember how many *other* ASIC companies are coming to our party, each with shitty table manners, to hoover up our delicious caek.

TL;DR:  With all the pre-order schemes maturing just around the same time, mining will be unprofitable.  For just about everyone.  Because preorder.

If only it were as simple as that.  If mining companies' prices are too high for anyone to see ROI, eventually that will result in no one ordering them.  So then the difficulty levels off and it becomes profitable again.  It's not a linear system, and it's much more difficult to predict profitability than you claim.

Do you understand what pre-order means?  
Once you placed your pre-order*, you lose your choice to "not buy" if the price makes no sense.  You either mine, or put your miner into a Hefty garbage bag & set it on the curb.  If, by the time you receive your miner, it becomes blatantly obvious that said miner will never ROI, wat do?  

*KNC pre-orders made through PayPal leave open a refund option, but that's not the case for most pre-orders -- those are locked in.
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August 30, 2013, 12:59:00 PM
 #7720

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone will unprofitable? So they will turn off their miners?

So in about a year's time, I can start CPU mining again? Shocked Awesome.

 Grin Roll Eyes

unprofitable i mean not even with electricy cost... but more
when your investment is 5000$
and you are getting 5$ per month after costs
you will need 10 years of mining Smiley

ok your saturn will make roi in next 20 years if you order today.
is it profitable for you ?

babysiting miner, hear loud and changing fans/paste for next 1000 weeks ?

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