Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[frankenmint]

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.

so now you've changed your mind, haven't you?

b/c a few post above, you stated:

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

am I missing something obvious ?

yes, you are missing that you could make roi with other hardware...

AGAIN ....no proof....you're being a FUDspreader.

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[bbxx]

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.

so now you've changed your mind, haven't you?

b/c a few post above, you stated:

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

am I missing something obvious ?

yes, you are missing that you could make roi with other hardware...

AGAIN ....no proof....you're being a FUDspreader.

i cant prove future,
but read custom hardware section, group buys and securities
there is the truth.

[sickpig]

the truth is if you will not make roi in next 2-3 months you are at loss.

so now you've changed your mind, haven't you?

b/c a few post above, you stated:

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

am I missing something obvious ?

yes, you are missing that you could make roi with other hardware...

if you say so it should be true then

[SirWizz]

cool down guys. it is dramatic but not desperate.


imagine one ordered and paid 10 jupiters.

with a difficulty of 100 mio this nice little mining farm would hash 20 btc per day.
with a difficulty of 1000 mio it would hash 2 btc per day.
with a difficulty of 2000 mio it would hash 1 btc per day.

that would mean that there is the equivalent of 3599 mining farms of this size around competing with ours. (3600 coins per day are available)
it needs 1800 x 10 jupiters for the difficulty to rise to 1000 mio. 18 000 jupiters cost 126 mio $. (i know there will be more efficient miners in the future, but there were also less efficient/more expensive ones in the past - so let´s just assume this levels out)

btc mining needs a "market capitalization" of 126 mio $ for the difficulty to rise towards a level, when a 70k investment makes 60 btc per month, at current gox = 7800,- $. even under those circumstances hardware break even would be possible in less then 10 months. if btc price doubles even 250 mio $ of purchased mining equippment wouldn´t kill roi forever.

i don´t see more then 100 mio $ going into mining in the near future.

if it works with 10 jupiters it will also work with just one.

Indeed. You need about 11 PH for your average miner (let's say 400 GH/s) to only break even in terms of electricity costs (assuming 10 cents / kW). A back of the napkin calculation shows that assuming an average cost of 17$/GH to the end user, the cost to produce 11 PH of hashing power would be so high that it would take the bitcoins produced in the next year and a half to pay for this at 100 dollars per bitcoin.

So there you have it, if somehow people invest 100+ million in hardware well let's just say that it will the ASIC makers that make the money and not the miners .

[crumbs]

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

Oh, the innocent, unbridled optimism of the little ones!  It melts my black little heart and microwaves it on "low" for 5 minutes.
Then i remember how many *other* ASIC companies are coming to our party, each with shitty table manners, to hoover up our delicious caek.

TL;DR:  With all the pre-order schemes maturing just around the same time, mining will be unprofitable.  For just about everyone.  Because preorder.

[Crypto_Cumbrian]

PSU info from UK  (Jupiter) Miner.

I have purchased this PSU.  http://www.dabs.com/products/akasa-850w-cobra-modular-power-supply--psu--with-strip-ribbon-cabling-8QPK.html?q=akasa%20psu&src=16

Bridging Plug from ebay.  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phobya-ATX-Bridging-Plug-24-Pin-Black-/231039442858?pt=UK_Computing_Water_Cooling&hash=item35cb061faa

Also Info from KnC the PCI-E connections on the miners are 6-Pin.

[jmw74]

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

Oh, the innocent, unbridled optimism of the little ones!  It melts my black little heart and microwaves it on "low" for 5 minutes.
Then i remember how many *other* ASIC companies are coming to our party, each with shitty table manners, to hoover up our delicious caek.

TL;DR:  With all the pre-order schemes maturing just around the same time, mining will be unprofitable.  For just about everyone.  Because preorder.

If only it were as simple as that.  If mining companies' prices are too high for anyone to see ROI, eventually that will result in no one ordering them.  So then the difficulty levels off and it becomes profitable again.  It's not a linear system, and it's much more difficult to predict profitability than you claim.

[plasmoske]

electricity power > bitcoins mined

No-one is going to run an Avalon if they are only mining $1 a day whilst electricity costs more than $4
No-one is going to run a BFL unit if they are only mining $1 a day whilst electricity costs more than $2

Now apply that logic to almost every miner out there.

In the long run, only the best efficiency/price wins. And currently, that's about most of the 28nm miners. KNC included.

So to say in 6 months time, you'll be running your miner at a lost is a bit unrealistic (that's where calculators don't take account these type of stuff)

Yes let's add all the miners and fast forward one year. And look at that. About half of the miners won't be running due to non-profitability.

Of-course more 28nm tech/miners will come out but by that time, most KNC miners would have already profited ages ago.

And then you can decide if you want to invest in the next biggest thing. It's a vicious cycle.

[bbxx]

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

Oh, the innocent, unbridled optimism of the little ones!  It melts my black little heart and microwaves it on "low" for 5 minutes.
Then i remember how many *other* ASIC companies are coming to our party, each with shitty table manners, to hoover up our delicious caek.

TL;DR:  With all the pre-order schemes maturing just around the same time, mining will be unprofitable.  For just about everyone.  Because preorder.

If only it were as simple as that.  If mining companies' prices are too high for anyone to see ROI, eventually that will result in no one ordering them.  So then the difficulty levels off and it becomes profitable again.  It's not a linear system, and it's much more difficult to predict profitability than you claim.

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

[plasmoske]

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone will unprofitable? So they will turn off their miners?

So in about a year's time, I can start CPU mining again? Awesome.

 

[klee]

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone will unprofitable? So they will turn off their miners?

So in about a year's time, I can start CPU mining again? Awesome.

 

Why not? Enter Primecoin!!!

[crumbs]

knc miners are not profitable. deal with it.

How? Prove it. Figures. You're spreading fud. The genesis block calc has so many more functions than the default most of the newbies in this forum are concentrating on (or those currently attempting to scare people).

For the default calculations to transpire over time the network would have to continuously double in a linear fashion time and time again. Impossible. Never going to happen.

Say 3,000 units are shipped in Oct, that would require 6,000 in November, the 12,000 in December, then 24,000 come Jan, 48,000 in February, 96,000 in March, 192,000 units delivered in April, 384,000 units in may, 768,000 units in June.

Can you honestly see this as even remotely realistic?!? It's ridiculous.

Knc, and whoever else are never going to manufacture and sell that many devices. Sure you can 'scale production' to a few thousand a month, and i've chosen 3,000 as an achievable figure, but the doubling, and doubling, and doubling. There's some seriously naive people in this forum.

I actually wrote to the Genesis Block and asked them to address this. I suggested they allow us to enter achievable figures of prouction for various manufacturers, and the dates by which those products are likely to be introduced to give more realistic scenarios, which they like, as it's the most sensible way to approach this, and they agreed, they like the idea.

In the mean time there's a constant increase per month option (MM) which can be used instead of the nutty (%) that is there by default. I may even write up a tutorial as people seem reluctant to play with the calc as it's quite useful if you know how to use it properly, which apparently a significant percentage of this forum can't. It's got to the point where it's just laughable and it's being used purposely to scare away small miners, which in turn will effect the distribution of the network. It's just beyond comprehension how the majority of people in this forum think a compounded increase in network harhrate is feasible over the long term!!

Certainly in this period of transition as GPU farms dies out and ASICs are introduced there are solid doubles of network over time, but if you think KnC, or Cointerra will be able to manufacture in excess of 5,000 units a month you're a complete idiot.

Oh, the innocent, unbridled optimism of the little ones!  It melts my black little heart and microwaves it on "low" for 5 minutes.
Then i remember how many *other* ASIC companies are coming to our party, each with shitty table manners, to hoover up our delicious caek.

TL;DR:  With all the pre-order schemes maturing just around the same time, mining will be unprofitable.  For just about everyone.  Because preorder.

If only it were as simple as that.  If mining companies' prices are too high for anyone to see ROI, eventually that will result in no one ordering them.  So then the difficulty levels off and it becomes profitable again.  It's not a linear system, and it's much more difficult to predict profitability than you claim.

Do you understand what pre-order means?  
Once you placed your pre-order*, you lose your choice to "not buy" if the price makes no sense.  You either mine, or put your miner into a Hefty garbage bag & set it on the curb.  If, by the time you receive your miner, it becomes blatantly obvious that said miner will never ROI, wat do?  

*KNC pre-orders made through PayPal leave open a refund option, but that's not the case for most pre-orders -- those are locked in.

[bbxx]

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone will unprofitable? So they will turn off their miners?

So in about a year's time, I can start CPU mining again? Awesome.

 

unprofitable i mean not even with electricy cost... but more
when your investment is 5000$
and you are getting 5$ per month after costs
you will need 10 years of mining

ok your saturn will make roi in next 20 years if you order today.
is it profitable for you ?

babysiting miner, hear loud and changing fans/paste for next 1000 weeks ?

[-Redacted-]

Don't feed the trolls.  They do a good enough job of feeding each other as it is...

[bbxx]

Don't feed the trolls.  They do a good enough job of feeding each other as it is...

circle jerks refreshing kncminer.com/news/ page praying for roi... are not trolls

[crumbs]

yeah but preordes were placed and...

AVALON chips, clones - clients are doomed
90% bfl customers are doomed
75% KNC miners will be not profitable for sure
october bitfury units will not make roi in 2 years
VNC, hashfast, monarch, cointerra preorders were placed unvisely too.

So basically what you're saying is that everyone will unprofitable? So they will turn off their miners?

So in about a year's time, I can start CPU mining again? Awesome.

 

No.  People will mine until electricity costs become greater than bitcoins mined.  This guarantees that the difficulty will climb, but ROI?  Lolz.
In other words, people will mine to limit their losses, to *partially* amortise miner costs, but yes, everyone but the manufacturers will lose money.
Pre-order.

[Miz4r]

There is a trade off between buying mining hardware and BTC. As soon as mining seems to lose its profitability buying BTC becomes more attractive to investors. I think you can already see this happening as the price of BTC has been steadily rising the past two months. When BTC value reaches a certain point mining hardware starts to look more attractive again for its price and more people will start to invest in hardware again. This process will keep repeating itself striving towards an equilibrium between the two. It's quite beautiful to observe actually.

[bbxx]

There is a trade off between buying mining hardware and BTC. As soon as mining seems to lose its profitability buying BTC becomes more attractive to investors. I think you can already see this happening as the price of BTC has been steadily rising the past two months. When BTC value reaches a certain point mining hardware starts to look more attractive again for its price and more people will start to invest in hardware again. This process will keep repeating itself striving towards an equilibrium between the two. It's quite beautiful to observe actually.

never mine just buy was the best strategy so far...
bye bye bitcoins placed on preorders

[plasmoske]

unprofitable i mean not even with electricy cost... but more
when your investment is 5000$
and you are getting 5$ per month after costs
you will need 10 years of mining

ok your saturn will make roi in next 20 years if you order today.
is it profitable for you ?

babysiting miner, hear loud and changing fans/paste for next 1000 weeks ?

If that's the case, people would not even bother to run their miner. But that time is very far off. We're not there yet.

Could be in 2 years time. Also depends on the price of bitcoins.

But we're talking about KNC here. They would have profited long before the cost of electricity is just a little under the cost of bitcoins mined.

Do some calculations and you'll see. But then again, not everyone has the brains or guts. People could always not buy or refund if they are too worried about not making ROI.

[plasmoske]

Mining manufacturers in the future - well I see a hard future for them. Imagine trying to convince people to buy your 50th/s for $1000 with ROI in 5 years.

No-one is going to buy it.

The Future = difficulty will be at just above even of electricity costs. So the real winners in the future are people who can afford low electricity rates and own an efficient-low priced-high spec miner.