Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware

[andrewsg]

10% of .078  = 0.0078 <-- SB's markup
0.078 + 0.0078 = 0.0858 <-- cost per chip from SB rounded up to .086

95% of 0.086 = 0.0817 <-- refund from SB as stated in the email and on forums

100% - 95% = 5% <-- markup lost in the course of doing business. seriously. this happens. check the thread for evidence of work being done.

…and 10% + 5% = 15% total markup.

I’m not saying it’s profit. I’m not making any value judgements - I’ve read the whole thread, I know work is being done. I think SB is being generous. I’m just saying it’s a total overhead of 15%, 5% of which is not incurred if you don’t cancel your order.

We do agree that he is not refunding half of the original 10% as some have suggested, right?

No, we don't agree. ik2013's approach is correct.

The original price of the chips from Bitsyncom is 0.078, if you refund you get back 0.0817 so clearly steamboat is paying back some of his 10% markup. To be precise, around 47.4% of his markup, or as close as makes no difference to "half of the original 10%".

[driksson]

incredible how simple math is so difficult for a lot of people in this room.
there will be a 5% markup only, not 10% as previously agreed. Well done steamboat.
I managed to submit the refund form, i hope i did it correctly.
Will look further for posts from you following this matter.
Thanks.

[driksson]

The original price of the chips from Bitsyncom is 0.078, if you refund you get back 0.0817 so clearly steamboat is paying back some of his 10% markup. To be precise, around 47.4% of his markup, or as close as makes no difference to "half of the original 10%".

It could not be put simpler than this. If we get back more than the bitsyncom price. How can steamboat then charge us above that?
Its 5% his charges. nothing more..

[alfabitcoin]

Have another question.
On what email we should reply refund request? On his personal what is accident or original e-mail where we sent all purchase details, or maybe both just to be sure.

[cpengr]

Have another question.
On what email we should reply refund request?

Don't reply.

To process your refund, please fill out the refund request form found at the bottom of this email in its entirety.

If you have trouble viewing or submitting this form, you can fill it out online:
[link redacted]

[bigbeninlondon]

…and 10% + 5% = 15% total markup.

You don't do maths so good.

If 100% = .078 per chip from Yifu, then .086 ~= 110%.  If we get back .081 per chip, we're getting back 104% of the chip cost, or 95% of our final cost.

Where do you get 15%?

[mastahofdesastah]

Anyone get a answer/verification, from refund request?

[driksson]

Anyone get a answer/verification, from refund request?

Yeah, was a post like this:
Avalon ASIC chip Refund Form
Your response has been recorded.

When successfully submitted. (no email).

[eroxors]

Frankly, I'm surprised SB has put up with this much trashing. If I were him, I would make use of the "refusal of service" provision in his terms. Good lord, a few more days and someone would have likely called the FL Attorney General or worse. I don't know if money or the prospect of it brings out the worst in people or if these forums are full of cranky teenagers or what, but PLEASE give SB the benefit of the doubt. He has continually posted substantial weekly/bi-monthly updates and has demonstrated a deep (rather unwarranted, IMHO) commitment to this community and his customers.

5% is generous, I expected the full 9% to be non-refundable, since the terms of the sale state that the ENTIRE purchase is non-refundable. The two operations (chips and assembly) are intertwined because of Yifu's terms (that he has now broken).

I'm going forward with my 50-chip w/assembly purchase. I do have 2 extra chips that I would like to do something with, assuming I don't have a dud. I think that ROI will not be met, but it was never guaranteed. I'm hoping some of the other projects are delayed (probable, given history) and I will recoup approximately three quarters of my costs.

As for refunding the assembly costs... I understood these to be non-refundable as well (it was explicitly stated and implicitly understood.) It's hard to expect SB to now completely change his business model because of Yifu's reversal on refunds. He needed the assembly money to establish the processes to make the assembly house work. Refunds from this would likely drive up costs or bankrupt SB.

Breathe. Relax. There are better things to do than troll this thread because you (may have) made a bad investment in Avalon.

[Xian01]

I purchased chips.
I didn't want miners built or hosted or anything.
I wanted chips and chips only.

 So ask for a refund, and get back 95% of your money. You agreed to a 10% purchasing fee. What's the problem here considering Steamboat is trying to make the best out of a situation that is literally beyond his control ?

[bigbeninlondon]

Everyone here who is doing so, needs to stop BLURRING the lines.

I purchased chips.
I didn't want miners built or hosted or anything.
I wanted chips and chips only.

How is it fair that profits from a groupbuy of chips are now being spent on covering the losses and risks of Steamboat's hardware operation? His Hardware customers should have been covering that. If he is taking a loss on that business then why punish his groupbuy customers by taking money for a product never delivered, and using it to cover losses on a business risk that went sour.

The money for the Chips is one issue.

The money he spent on hardware is another completely separate issue that he should address with people who want his hardware or hosting (not me).

This is foul, and the stench will last for a very very long time.

To know that most/all other groupbuys are getting a 100% refund and we are not... This is extremely telling.

Pretty sure they are separated.  Steamboat charged a 10% fee for his services.  He felt his services were worth 10%.  He has provided his services.  His services were to organize a group buy and deliver chips.  He has fulfilled his side of the bargain thus far and is entitled to some compensation for tracking the chip purchases and dealing with everyone's bullshit.  95% of your cost is being refunded to you in direct contradiction of the stated terms that you agreed to.  The assembly service is separate and is being treated as such.

Fuck I hate most of you people.  I think I'm going to comb through these threads when I get some time and ignore all of the people who can't read, can't do math, and can't control their tempers.  There should be a bitcointalk for grown ups; this has turned into the kiddie table.

[alfabitcoin]

I have also expected that steamboat will keep his original fee (10%) and I would not mind at all. He has clearly spent a lot of time and effort so 5% is more then fair.

As for assambly refunds we are expexting steamboat other update... his assambly service is funded after all with customers money and not his and should be refundable when work did not taken place, for whatever reason, so buyers should have something to say about it.

Even so, I am strongly consider to get those klondike deliver and start to hash. Life is short and not all is in the money!

edit
And I would like that LSD inc stay in business and offer mining hardware in the future!

[evilscoop]

problem with assembly is he will have had to order the parts a while ago, and pay for the pick/place setup etc etc...

I dont expect there will be a full refund on assembly....and as Im batch 1, with assembly my chances of any refund are slim...
So ill wait for my board and either mine it or ebay (or both)

[d0qtrx]

The service fee has been reduced to 5%, which seems fair.  Thanks for the update.

Still curious to hear about assembly, parts and shipping.

Seems fair?  This is absolute bullshit.  Steamboat already made 10% on each chip order.  Why does he deserve another 5% for essentially filling out a refund form from Yifu.  Granted he will have to deal with all the paperwork but that was what he signed up for when he organized this group buy - total control.

Why was every other group buy organizer able to provide a 100% chip refund?

This is absolutely outrageous.

Show me any other investment opportunity where you get 95% of your money back when it goes south.

[bigbeninlondon]

The service fee has been reduced to 5%, which seems fair.  Thanks for the update.

Still curious to hear about assembly, parts and shipping.

Seems fair?  This is absolute bullshit.  Steamboat already made 10% on each chip order.  Why does he deserve another 5% for essentially filling out a refund form from Yifu.  Granted he will have to deal with all the paperwork but that was what he signed up for when he organized this group buy - total control.

Why was every other group buy organizer able to provide a 100% chip refund?

This is absolutely outrageous.

Another 5%?  What the fuck are you smoking?  He's refunding 95% of your purchase price.  That's 100% of the chip cost PLUS around 50% of his surcharge.  That means he's ONLY keeping 50% of his surcharge, or around 5% of your total cost.  How can you be a miner and be this bad at math?  Maybe a mutual fund would be better for you, no?

[bigbeninlondon]

What's the problem here considering Steamboat is trying to make the best out of a situation that is literally beyond his control?

The problem is that other groupbuys are getting a 100% Refunds.

This is because these other groupbuy operators want to have future successful groupbuys and maintain a reputation as being an extremely honest and fair operator.

Other groupbuys are not this group buy.  You agreed to terms of service.  If you did not like the terms, why didn't YOU participate in THEIR group buys instead of this one?

Wahh!  They got ice cream!  I want ice cream!

Quit your bitching.  Things are looking up for those who want refunds.

[kostagr33k]

As those who keep saying he did nothing to deserve his markup, everyone does know he organized this whole group buy, terms, etc. etc. Seeing that he only is taking 5% reflects that he is not charging his full fee % given that he does not have to finalize those orders.

I've stated this before, and will again. If your willing to invest money in such a changing environment (BTC in general asics even more since there so new) don't get your self overwound when things don't go your way.

Everyone bought into ASICs in general because people think by doing so, you could Triple (If not 10x+) your money in a few months time (early adopters of Avalon for example). Now that difficulty is going so high, and delays keep happening, people aren't happy with their "Risk" anymore.

Relax yourselves

In the next Year, there will be Several ASIC providers , with various board designs. Each iteration will hash a multiple of what was released previously, with more hash/s and less Watts used. In other words, this market will change rapidly. You can't b*tch because someone else got that 2014 Corvette, when you only have a 2013 Corvette. Be glad you even know about Bitcoin and are involved so early!!!


[/rant]


Kosta

[kostagr33k]

lol  @sneef. Let me fall on my sword, so you can survive.


SB is not Avalon. SB was not the one that failed us here and should be compensated for his time spent on this.

For example, I just had to pay someone to Inspect a house I wanted to buy, and after the inspection, and several hundred dollars later, Had to back out of my contract with the Homeowner.


Should I now tell the Inspector, well I didn't get the house so Im not going to pay you? Absolutely not. If I did that, He would be suing me!


SB was acting as a broker of sorts. We wanted to buy from Yifu, but none of us wanted to buy 10,000 chips at once.


kosta

[alfabitcoin]

If yifu has announced chip delay I am sure steamboat and other would reestimate assambly project and parts purchase. Yifu has announced begining of Semptember that chips are shipping by mid of Sept (lie) and then dissapeared till end of August! He has clearly fucked up and only one word and post from yifu of mostlikely delay would save steamboat a lot of money (funded with assambly preorder) and effort! And now does he offer anything to diy comunity? What about our chi, sb chi, all the buyers chi?

[kostagr33k]

Sorry alfabitcoin, but not sure I follow? Do you mean if Yifu stated this Delay when the orders went in? IF thats what your saying, then yes I agree with you. Things could have been scheduled more appropriately and could have perhaps allowed ourselves to get better refund options from SB.

I wish that was the case too, as I was expecting to be hashing already and cleaned out my damn office for my boards (I'm a linux engineer and tend to be messy)