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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 143766 times)
TMAN
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January 25, 2018, 03:15:58 PM
 #761

I checked a lot of topics again, and didn't noticed any received merits for a good posts, although I have noticed a lot of merits received for the high rank member posts like "You want some merit bro? Here you go hehehe" and responses to such posts like "Oh, thank you, I have sent some merits for you as well hehehe". What can I say about it, I don't think, that this system will stop spam and shit posting, and I'm pretty sure, that high quality posts will be rewarded with a merit, although I have already found a telegram groups, where merits are sold for 1$. Why do you need to send your merits for free if you can sell it, right? So this system is not solving the problem, but it already added some corruption and it gave many advantages for a senior members, and gave a lot of disadvantages to the newbies. This forum is not facebook, why it is necessary to have "likes"? And I'm just curious, what was the motivation to put such ranking system - to get a full member rank, you need to gain 10x more merit, than for a member. I don't think it will stop creation of multiple accounts, as some strange activities were noticed already:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2439743.msg28861940#msg28861940 - 7 merit points were received for the question "How much merit points newbie need to receive, before he can post in other section?"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2770539.msg28896442#msg28896442 - 50 merits for "Right, yesterday he told, that he saved 9% of coins"

High quality posts, huh?

I have few thoughts regarding this. First of all, this could be implemented with purpose to raise the price on the accounts with senior ranks. Admin informed us, that moderators will not moderate merits, than why do we need this? I find it quite suspicious. Secondly, it will help hero/legendary members to save their profits in the bounty campaigns. Now it will be difficult to reach senior ranks, and new rivals will rarely appear. That's my point regarding this new system. Embarrassed

all these people will run out of merits pretty soon! Ive chucked 10 about for a laugh.. the rest I will be serious with

there will always be a bedding in period.. this will take months, then the positive results will be seen.

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tbct_mt2
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January 25, 2018, 03:19:56 PM
 #762

I checked a lot of topics again, and didn't noticed any received merits for a good posts, although I have noticed a lot of merits received for the high rank member posts like "You want some merit bro? Here you go hehehe" and responses to such posts like "Oh, thank you, I have sent some merits for you as well hehehe". What can I say about it, I don't think, that this system will stop spam and shit posting, and I'm pretty sure, that high quality posts will be rewarded with a merit, although I have already found a telegram groups, where merits are sold for 1$. Why do you need to send your merits for free if you can sell it, right? So this system is not solving the problem, but it already added some corruption and it gave many advantages for a senior members, and gave a lot of disadvantages to the newbies. This forum is not facebook, why it is necessary to have "likes"? And I'm just curious, what was the motivation to put such ranking system - to get a full member rank, you need to gain 10x more merit, than for a member. I don't think it will stop creation of multiple accounts, as some strange activities were noticed already:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2439743.msg28861940#msg28861940 - 7 merit points were received for the question "How much merit points newbie need to receive, before he can post in other section?"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2770539.msg28896442#msg28896442 - 50 merits for "Right, yesterday he told, that he saved 9% of coins"

High quality posts, huh?

I have few thoughts regarding this. First of all, this could be implemented with purpose to raise the price on the accounts with senior ranks. Admin informed us, that moderators will not moderate merits, than why do we need this? I find it quite suspicious. Secondly, it will help hero/legendary members to save their profits in the bounty campaigns. Now it will be difficult to reach senior ranks, and new rivals will rarely appear. That's my point regarding this new system. Embarrassed
Totally agree with most of the ideas. The current merit system will tie up the opportunities to be Members, Full Members and Senior Members. Those old accounts dont worry about that, but the new ones have to face harshly with those new rules, with merit ranking.
Personally, I think admin and moderators of the forum should focus on how to release new, more strictly screening system for investigating spamming accounts, which post non-sense, shit posts most of the time. After that, banning those accounts permanently. That's rule might be better than the current merit system.

Please consider about the idea. Tie up spamming discovering system, and more strict banning rules (permanently bans)

hilariousandco
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January 25, 2018, 03:22:22 PM
 #763

I checked a lot of topics again, and didn't noticed any received merits for a good posts, although I have noticed a lot of merits received for the high rank member posts like "You want some merit bro? Here you go hehehe" and responses to such posts like "Oh, thank you, I have sent some merits for you as well hehehe". What can I say about it, I don't think, that this system will stop spam and shit posting, and I'm pretty sure, that high quality posts will be rewarded with a merit, although I have already found a telegram groups, where merits are sold for 1$. Why do you need to send your merits for free if you can sell it, right? So this system is not solving the problem, but it already added some corruption and it gave many advantages for a senior members, and gave a lot of disadvantages to the newbies. This forum is not facebook, why it is necessary to have "likes"? And I'm just curious, what was the motivation to put such ranking system - to get a full member rank, you need to gain 10x more merit, than for a member. I don't think it will stop creation of multiple accounts, as some strange activities were noticed already:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2439743.msg28861940#msg28861940 - 7 merit points were received for the question "How much merit points newbie need to receive, before he can post in other section?"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2770539.msg28896442#msg28896442 - 50 merits for "Right, yesterday he told, that he saved 9% of coins"

High quality posts, huh?

I have few thoughts regarding this. First of all, this could be implemented with purpose to raise the price on the accounts with senior ranks. Admin informed us, that moderators will not moderate merits, than why do we need this? I find it quite suspicious. Secondly, it will help hero/legendary members to save their profits in the bounty campaigns. Now it will be difficult to reach senior ranks, and new rivals will rarely appear. That's my point regarding this new system. Embarrassed


infazan is possibly a bought/hacked account. Password recently changed and woke up from a long period of inactivity.

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January 25, 2018, 03:24:54 PM
 #764

The system just started today and I already see so many trying to abuse it in the best possible way and I feel that these people can be reported and their Smerits can just be nullified so that they can't abuse it. And if not, hope so signature campaigns think before adding merits earned as a criteria for any candidate unless they feel the candidate is eligible. Is there any way to find how which post has earned the user the merits? I see that once merits are given, they can't be undone unlike trust.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit


Not only mine but can we see other users' merit stats? I tried adding different uids but I can't see anything change. It still mentions my merits sent and received.

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suchmoon
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January 25, 2018, 03:27:11 PM
 #765

The way I understand is that if you give merits to someone you lose that merit yourself am I right in thinking this? If this is true you could potentially derank by going below the rank requirements by giving people merits.

No, you don't lose your merits and you can't "derank". You're sending merits from a separate pool of sMerit points. You're earning them the same way like your rank merit points, just at a lower rate (0.5 sMerit per merit received).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit

Not only mine but can we see other users' merit stats? I tried adding different uids but I can't see anything change. It still mentions my merits sent and received.

AFAIK - no. I would like to see that implemented.

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January 25, 2018, 03:27:52 PM
 #766

And why are getting users still red tags for post quality?
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January 25, 2018, 03:29:13 PM
 #767

and there you go, its getting more complicated for me and the newbies to rank up , high quality post to get merit? lucky for those brainy heads.
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Found my post helpful ? click "merit" please ;)


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January 25, 2018, 03:29:27 PM
 #768



if this system is here to stop people trying to climb the scale up, then it is an absolute success.

It probably is. It is essentially freezing the rankings.




you nailed it : it will FREEZE rankings.

what the admin doesn't get, is that if the majority of people are still posting directly or non- directly, to get a better ranking.


when the majority will be tired of these too harsh rules or whatever, they simply lose patience and move somewhere else.

if theymos has a made a full life / earning from the forum, he has to understand, not everybody here is in such situation.

and people may not be willing to farm so hard to get some small and incredibly slow reward.

if i was about to launch a new crypto i would not waste so much time and energy on this forum anymore, and i'm sure tons of new people might start to think this way.

discouraging is easy especially when better alternatives exists.

just like bitcoin, this forum is aging, and sooner or later it will get replaced by some other community.

this is very sad, but such rules might make the end of this forum sooner than later.
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January 25, 2018, 03:31:05 PM
 #769

For current members, your initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for your rank. Of that, a certain amount (less than the usual half) is spendable. The spendable amount was calculated based on your current rank and the number of activity points you earned in the last year. A Legendary member who hasn't posted in the last year would still be Legendary, but would not have any spendable merit.
I don't agree with this, this is just like giving the "old members" (including me) a head start. I'm not saying that earning merits is a race but giving us a head start also means giving us a free reputation out of nothing. That does not necessarily mean we need to rebuild our reputation from zero, I mean there are so many members that have earned a good reputation on this forum.
So I think the merit points for old members have to be given based on their reputation now and without affecting the rank.

Anyway, I think this is gonna be the end of account farming.

The new system is surely better than the previous one, even though it is over-rewarding "old members". I guess nobody who has joined Bitcointalk in the past six months will EVER manage to become Legendary Member, at least not in less than one or two decades. Fine, this could be a price to pay to avoid the forum getting even more trashy, I fully agree. But I think that the implementation of this new system could be done in a more fair way. The fact that initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for one's rank is not a big deal for Newbies or Juniors, but for higher ranked members, like Senior or Hero Members, it can create big inequalities. For example a freshly ranked Senior Member is now getting the same merit score as someone who has already been a Senior Member for almost half a year and is about to become a Hero. Even more dramatic would be the case of a Hero who has already the activity to be a Legendary but the random system did not grant him the rank yet. A more fair way to distribute the inital merit would be to calculate it proportionally to the actual activity. This would avoid that people like me (I don't want to make it personal but I'm the first example which comes to my mind) who is missing only 4 points of activity (and 5 days) to the rank of Hero Member, instead of getting, let's say 470-480 merits (instead of the 500 of people who already are Heroes), is getting only 250 merits like someone who has just ranked Senior Member 10 days ago, and instead of 5 days it may now suddenly take me years before I can become a Hero - how many very good posts has one to do before he gets 250 merits? If you receive one merit every 4 post you do (on average you are likely to get less IMO) it will take you 1000 more posts to rank up from Senior to Hero, and if you like me were only 4 points of activity from that target, and now suddenly you need another 1000 posts, to say that this is becoming extremely frustrating is a big understatement. On the other side, with a more proportional and balanced initial distribution of merits I think nobody would feel that the system is penalizing them more than it penalizes others - which means people would be more inclined to recognize its substantial fairness, or at least that every effort has been done to achieve the maximum possible fairness.
It's game of luck, game of randomly chances. You will depend upon someone, and their time, their generosity to get merits. That sounds credible!
As I mentioned above, we need a new ranking system, definitely. However, this one should focus on stricter banning rules, and allows users have the rights to do something by themselves, for themselves in order to be automatically upgraded when they satisfied requirements for each higher member ranks. They don't have to depend on someone. That's approach will be more fairly for all users, particularly for lower-ranked users.

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January 25, 2018, 03:32:26 PM
 #770

Not only mine but can we see other users' merit stats? I tried adding different uids but I can't see anything change. It still mentions my merits sent and received.

theymos said he will add that soon.

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January 25, 2018, 03:32:29 PM
 #771

I checked a lot of topics again, and didn't noticed any received merits for a good posts, although I have noticed a lot of merits received for the high rank member posts like "You want some merit bro? Here you go hehehe" and responses to such posts like "Oh, thank you, I have sent some merits for you as well hehehe". What can I say about it, I don't think, that this system will stop spam and shit posting, and I'm pretty sure, that high quality posts will be rewarded with a merit, although I have already found a telegram groups, where merits are sold for 1$. Why do you need to send your merits for free if you can sell it, right? So this system is not solving the problem, but it already added some corruption and it gave many advantages for a senior members, and gave a lot of disadvantages to the newbies. This forum is not facebook, why it is necessary to have "likes"? And I'm just curious, what was the motivation to put such ranking system - to get a full member rank, you need to gain 10x more merit, than for a member. I don't think it will stop creation of multiple accounts, as some strange activities were noticed already:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2439743.msg28861940#msg28861940 - 7 merit points were received for the question "How much merit points newbie need to receive, before he can post in other section?"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2770539.msg28896442#msg28896442 - 50 merits for "Right, yesterday he told, that he saved 9% of coins"

High quality posts, huh?

I have few thoughts regarding this. First of all, this could be implemented with purpose to raise the price on the accounts with senior ranks. Admin informed us, that moderators will not moderate merits, than why do we need this? I find it quite suspicious. Secondly, it will help hero/legendary members to save their profits in the bounty campaigns. Now it will be difficult to reach senior ranks, and new rivals will rarely appear. That's my point regarding this new system. Embarrassed
Totally agree with most of the ideas. The current merit system will tie up the opportunities to be Members, Full Members and Senior Members. Those old accounts dont worry about that, but the new ones have to face harshly with those new rules, with merit ranking.
Personally, I think admin and moderators of the forum should focus on how to release new, more strictly screening system for investigating spamming accounts, which post non-sense, shit posts most of the time. After that, banning those accounts permanently. That's rule might be better than the current merit system.

Please consider about the idea. Tie up spamming discovering system, and more strict banning rules (permanently bans)

Jesus Christ, “investigations”? Really? They don’t have time to do all of that. What you’re suggesting is the reason they’re trying the Facebook solution. Even taking into account all of the multiple users that belong to one person there’s still around a million members (1 to 7 thousand online at once) making thousands of new posts a day. Seriously dude, how is any group smaller than an army of mods supposed to do that. This is the automated system you want that can screen shitposters without automatically banning the wrong person by mistake.

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January 25, 2018, 03:32:36 PM
 #772

I wish there was a way to know who sent merits to who, kinda like the blockchain.  That way, we could somehow know who's gaming the system...

I bet there are some concerned individuals in the forum having a meeting right now thru Skype...  'This is bad for business...  How can we beat Theymos' merit system with our spammer horde and make money from it?'  Cheesy

Edit:  The spammers' first attempt to game the system is to become a 'merit source'.

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January 25, 2018, 03:33:00 PM
 #773

Certain users are designated as "merit sources". They can create new merit out of nothing, up to a limited number per month (which differs per source). I will not be posting a definitive list of merit sources (so that people don't bug them too much), though you'll soon figure out who they are if you pay attention.

Oh, just great. More abuse of power. Let me guess; Lauda, The Pharmacist and actmyname.

Besides, why would anyone outside the happy few give away his merit points if he needs them himself to move up in ranking?

Quote
The forum ranking system is a bit complicated now...

That's why I opted in the other thread, and here, for principal forum moderation. Everyone can understand principles. Nobody understands patched up constructions like this.

The forum is getting crazier and crazier. I wish there was an alternative. But alas, as long as Bitcointalk has the monopoly we'll have to deal with the power abuse over here...
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January 25, 2018, 03:33:45 PM
Merited by marlboroza (2)
 #774

There is no denying that something had to be done about the empty, meaningless posts.
They merely serve to disincentivize BitcoinTalk bounty programmes, who would want that?

With the merit system, the accounts that have a high rank are given the option to choose who gets to join the boat, instead of how long an account has been polluting the topics (be honest, which system is better?)


quote by TMAN
Quote
all these people will run out of merits pretty soon! Ive chucked 10 about for a laugh.. the rest I will be serious with

there will always be a bedding in period.. this will take months, then the positive results will be seen.

A perfect system does not exist, to all the negative posters, deal with it, do us a favour, do your own research and then post.
Your work will be noted and you will get there.

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing
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January 25, 2018, 03:33:56 PM
 #775

I do not know, I am not able to quote anyone in this forum.
But I saw that post and profile suggested by Dvach.

Some body have merits in profile, when just replying like "Good News"  , "Available in TradeSatoshi" , or some ramdom post of current market rates.

If people are judging the people post , then how it is guaranteed it will be fair. Might I like that post but for somebody else it was commonsense.

Better system I guess, We should do not allow any member to start any thread on there wish to stop scam.
When somebody wanted to start any thread, there should some proper requirement check for them.
Moderator on that thread should able to decide, to whom merit can rewarded or not. (Second level review can also be placed for the people who get merit to ensure that there  post were worthy or not).

I do not understand how the system help when person giving merit to another person without any good fixed guideline.

every person can have different taste and different criteria.

I am alive
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January 25, 2018, 03:36:12 PM
 #776

For current members, your initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for your rank. Of that, a certain amount (less than the usual half) is spendable. The spendable amount was calculated based on your current rank and the number of activity points you earned in the last year. A Legendary member who hasn't posted in the last year would still be Legendary, but would not have any spendable merit.
I don't agree with this, this is just like giving the "old members" (including me) a head start. I'm not saying that earning merits is a race but giving us a head start also means giving us a free reputation out of nothing. That does not necessarily mean we need to rebuild our reputation from zero, I mean there are so many members that have earned a good reputation on this forum.
So I think the merit points for old members have to be given based on their reputation now and without affecting the rank.

Anyway, I think this is gonna be the end of account farming.

The new system is surely better than the previous one, even though it is over-rewarding "old members". I guess nobody who has joined Bitcointalk in the past six months will EVER manage to become Legendary Member, at least not in less than one or two decades. Fine, this could be a price to pay to avoid the forum getting even more trashy, I fully agree. But I think that the implementation of this new system could be done in a more fair way. The fact that initial merit score is equal to the minimum required for one's rank is not a big deal for Newbies or Juniors, but for higher ranked members, like Senior or Hero Members, it can create big inequalities. For example a freshly ranked Senior Member is now getting the same merit score as someone who has already been a Senior Member for almost half a year and is about to become a Hero. Even more dramatic would be the case of a Hero who has already the activity to be a Legendary but the random system did not grant him the rank yet. A more fair way to distribute the inital merit would be to calculate it proportionally to the actual activity. This would avoid that people like me (I don't want to make it personal but I'm the first example which comes to my mind) who is missing only 4 points of activity (and 5 days) to the rank of Hero Member, instead of getting, let's say 470-480 merits (instead of the 500 of people who already are Heroes), is getting only 250 merits like someone who has just ranked Senior Member 10 days ago, and instead of 5 days it may now suddenly take me years before I can become a Hero - how many very good posts has one to do before he gets 250 merits? If you receive one merit every 4 post you do (on average you are likely to get less IMO) it will take you 1000 more posts to rank up from Senior to Hero, and if you like me were only 4 points of activity from that target, and now suddenly you need another 1000 posts, to say that this is becoming extremely frustrating is a big understatement. On the other side, with a more proportional and balanced initial distribution of merits I think nobody would feel that the system is penalizing them more than it penalizes others - which means people would be more inclined to recognize its substantial fairness, or at least that every effort has been done to achieve the maximum possible fairness.

Fully agree with you! My rank of Sr.Member still young (2 months only) but for people who near of rank changes its a tragicly! Needs a corrections of initial merits!

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January 25, 2018, 03:39:09 PM
 #777

I feel that this merit thing is introduced just to solve the problems of spam and shit posting done my users having ranks hero or below. So I would suggest you to add Demerits as well inorder to make legendary members do the same .
Yes I had the same thought,the accounts having hero or Legendary ranks at the moment are at an advantage as they have a 500 and 1000 merit respectively as default.Introducing a demerit system may set all things at par.
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January 25, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
 #778

- if I know a member, think his quality is "OK" but not outstanding, can I send him 10 merits to any post as a reward for overall contribution (to help him rank up), or will this be seen as suspicious and potential merit-trading, for which I could get red-tagged?

If you merit a lot of shitty posts then someone might see a pattern. If you occasionally boost a shitty poster or your alt - unfortunately that's probably going to go unnoticed.

Quote
...There is no point in hoarding sMerit; keeping it yourself does not benefit you, and we reserve the right to decay unused sMerit in the future.

From any signature-camp participant perspective: not sharing points benefits me, as I make it harder for new ones to rank up and become a competition for me, making it easier to get the spot in campaign and could keep payment rates higher. It also increases the value of my account.

If someone is only concerned with sig campaigns and/or account trading then yes, there are probably ways to abuse the system. Hopefully the overall impact will reduce spam sufficiently to outweigh potential negatives but this may take a few weeks to settled down. Once the initial sMerit bonus is gone we'll start seeing how this actually works.

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January 25, 2018, 03:43:44 PM
Merited by stingers (1)
 #779

If nothing else, seeing people have gotten hundreds of merits in the first few hours of this rollout should make it pretty clear who is abusing multiple accounts on this forum. Smiley

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January 25, 2018, 03:44:49 PM
Merited by Real14Hero (2)
 #780

If nothing else, seeing people have gotten hundreds of merits in the first few hours of this rollout should make it pretty clear who is abusing multiple accounts on this forum. Smiley
Its actually good for catching alts of someone.
Stupid people will always indulge in sending merits to their alt accounts
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