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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804781 times)
justusranvier
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August 23, 2014, 05:46:34 PM
 #11061

The point is, privacy has to be as automated and perfect as the surveillance in order to be effective.

Right now doing everything right means doing it manually, which means sooner or later you will make a mistake.
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Peter R
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August 23, 2014, 05:50:06 PM
 #11062


Did you miss that Coinbase is doing blockchain analysis to identify which of their customers are using gambling sites?
...

I think this is just CYA from Coinbase's perspective.  They want to be able to show that they don't accept funds directly from sites of questionable legality.  And I'd do the same thing if I were in their position.

Furthermore, what they are doing adds helpful pressure to implement better mixing/anonymity by default, as evident by your concerns.  The gambling sites, users, and wallet devs are all reacting to the pressure in positive ways.  If "due diligence" for tracking coins from gambling sites is "1 hop" then the coins can be sent using 2 hops, etc.  It's just a game to pacify the regulators--Coinbase pretends to care and so implements a coin-tracking policy, and we route around it (becoming stronger in the process).

I am no longer worried about a bitcoin "fungibility crisis."

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
Hunyadi
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August 23, 2014, 05:54:01 PM
 #11063


Did you miss that Coinbase is doing blockchain analysis to identify which of their customers are using gambling sites?
...

I think this is just CYA from Coinbase's perspective.  They want to be able to show that they don't accept funds directly from sites of questionable legality.  And I'd do the same thing if I were in their position.

Furthermore, what they are doing adds helpful pressure to implement better mixing/anonymity by default, as evident by your concerns.  The gambling sites, users, and wallet devs are all reacting to the pressure in positive ways.  If "due diligence" for tracking coins from gambling sites is "1 hop" then the coins can be sent using 2 hops, etc.  It's just a game to pacify the regulators--Coinbase pretends to care and so implements a coin-tracking policy, and we route around it (becoming stronger in the process).

I am no longer worried about a bitcoin "fungibility crisis."

Don't you guys think that Darkwallet will solve anonymity concerns?

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justusranvier
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August 23, 2014, 05:54:59 PM
 #11064

Furthermore, what they are doing adds helpful pressure to implement better mixing/anonymity by default, as evident by your concerns.  The gambling sites, users, and wallet devs are all reacting to the pressure in positive ways.  If "due diligence" for tracking coins from gambling sites is "1 hop" then the coins can be sent using 2 hops, etc.  It's just a game to pacify the regulators--Coinbase pretends to care and so implements a coin-tracking policy, and we route around it (becoming stronger in the process).
I agree that the pressure is good for Bitcoin in the long run.

We don't actually disagree. See what I originally wrote:

But first we better get to work on better privacy techniques.

Bitcoin isn't any good to anyone in its current state.

The gambling sites, users, and wallet devs are all reacting to the pressure precisely because the status quo is in adequate.
negafen
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August 23, 2014, 05:56:11 PM
 #11065


Did you miss that Coinbase is doing blockchain analysis to identify which of their customers are using gambling sites?
...

I think this is just CYA from Coinbase's perspective.  They want to be able to show that they don't accept funds directly from sites of questionable legality.  And I'd do the same thing if I were in their position.

Furthermore, what they are doing adds helpful pressure to implement better mixing/anonymity by default, as evident by your concerns.  The gambling sites, users, and wallet devs are all reacting to the pressure in positive ways.  If "due diligence" for tracking coins from gambling sites is "1 hop" then the coins can be sent using 2 hops, etc.  It's just a game to pacify the regulators--Coinbase pretends to care and so implements a coin-tracking policy, and we route around it (becoming stronger in the process).

I am no longer worried about a bitcoin "fungibility crisis."

Don't you guys think that Darkwallet will solve anonymity concerns?

There is no technology that will solve privacy permanently.

It has and will always be a cat and mouse game.
cypherdoc
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August 23, 2014, 05:59:29 PM
 #11066

Furthermore, what they are doing adds helpful pressure to implement better mixing/anonymity by default, as evident by your concerns.  The gambling sites, users, and wallet devs are all reacting to the pressure in positive ways.  If "due diligence" for tracking coins from gambling sites is "1 hop" then the coins can be sent using 2 hops, etc.  It's just a game to pacify the regulators--Coinbase pretends to care and so implements a coin-tracking policy, and we route around it (becoming stronger in the process).
I agree that the pressure is good for Bitcoin in the long run.

We don't actually disagree. See what I originally wrote:

But first we better get to work on better privacy techniques.

Bitcoin isn't any good to anyone in its current state.

The gambling sites, users, and wallet devs are all reacting to the pressure precisely because the status quo is in adequate.

perhaps you should consider rephrasing "Bitcoin isn't any good to anyone in its current state" to "Bitcoin's ancillary services aren't any good to anyone in its current state"?
rpietila
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August 23, 2014, 06:15:55 PM
 #11067

perhaps you should consider rephrasing "Bitcoin isn't any good to anyone in its current state" to "Bitcoin's ancillary services aren't any good to anyone in its current state"?

I am sure you have heard about Monero, which is anonymous, and can already work as a BTC mixer, and in the future as a standalone coin.

_mr_e
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August 23, 2014, 06:28:41 PM
 #11068

perhaps you should consider rephrasing "Bitcoin isn't any good to anyone in its current state" to "Bitcoin's ancillary services aren't any good to anyone in its current state"?

I am sure you have heard about Monero, which is anonymous, and can already work as a BTC mixer, and in the future as a standalone coin.

Actually James from Nxt, an absolute beast of a developer, is also currently deving on Bitcoin Dark to integrate his new Teleport system. It is built on TOP of Nxt technology but will be first integrated into BTCD but will be capable of teleporting ANY coin. This will be a complete breakthrough in anonymizers. http://www.flipgorilla.com/p/23023990364728535/show#/23023990364728535/0
Melbustus
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August 23, 2014, 06:42:31 PM
 #11069

I honestly don't know if bitcoin's non-perfect privacy is an ultimate bug or ultimate feature in terms of adoption. JR is right that bitcoin leaks, and that govs will get better at exploiting leaks, as well as more actively and completely demanding identity ties that will stick with coins to some degree.

And that's why govs are likely to, in the longer run, embrace bitcoin without a hugely aggressive battle (as in, "hey merchants, if you accept bitcoin, you go to jail"). They do (or will) realize that because perfect privacy is far from easy to achieve with bitcoin, they can live with it. Further, the inevitable rise of built-in-privacy coins (eg, Monero, as rpietila suggests), will potentially catalyze this viewpoint pretty quickly. Govs will actively *promote* bitcoin at the expense of whatever full-native-privacy coin starts to gain some visible traction.

Heck, Lawsky is already aware of this dynamic. Anyone else catch his comment in the hearings earlier this year, where he pondered: "...maybe we need to require that all virtual currencies have a transparent blockchain."?


Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
rpietila
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August 23, 2014, 06:51:36 PM
 #11070

I agree that the best way to leave Monero et al to the dust would be to lift the lid from Bitcoin price appreciation. The trendline allows for 10+ times higher price, which would mean that alts are destroyed (since they are priced in bitcoins).

Ultros
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August 23, 2014, 06:59:09 PM
 #11071

I honestly don't know if bitcoin's non-perfect privacy is an ultimate bug or ultimate feature in terms of adoption. JR is right that bitcoin leaks, and that govs will get better at exploiting leaks, as well as more actively and completely demanding identity ties that will be stick with coins to some degree.


To me Bitcoin's relative transparency is the feature that will make it acceptable for banks and governments, they will gladly be able to "regulate" it and probably decrease its potential but as a necessary step into cryptocurrency's massive awareness. For everything else, you'll have Monero and alikes.
justusranvier
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August 23, 2014, 07:02:54 PM
 #11072

perhaps you should consider rephrasing "Bitcoin isn't any good to anyone in its current state" to "Bitcoin's ancillary services aren't any good to anyone in its current state"?
meh. Don't want anyone to get complacent.
Hunyadi
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August 23, 2014, 08:05:29 PM
 #11073

What do you think of this http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/6065/swiss-gold-initiative?

"Interest is beginning to build, awareness is growing and the date of the national referendum has been set. Later this year, on November 30, the good people of Switzerland will finally get an opportunity to make their voices heard. The Swiss Gold Initiative can be roughly stated in three parts:

 1   The halting of all Swiss gold sales
 2   The repatriation of all Swiss gold that is held in foreign vaults
 3   Resume backing the Swiss Franc with gold, at a minimum level of 20%"

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cypherdoc
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August 23, 2014, 08:38:03 PM
 #11074

perhaps you should consider rephrasing "Bitcoin isn't any good to anyone in its current state" to "Bitcoin's ancillary services aren't any good to anyone in its current state"?
meh. Don't want anyone to get complacent.

Respectable goal
cypherdoc
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August 23, 2014, 08:38:47 PM
 #11075

What do you think of this http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/6065/swiss-gold-initiative?

"Interest is beginning to build, awareness is growing and the date of the national referendum has been set. Later this year, on November 30, the good people of Switzerland will finally get an opportunity to make their voices heard. The Swiss Gold Initiative can be roughly stated in three parts:

 1   The halting of all Swiss gold sales
 2   The repatriation of all Swiss gold that is held in foreign vaults
 3   Resume backing the Swiss Franc with gold, at a minimum level of 20%"


Not much, obviously
Odalv
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August 23, 2014, 08:48:59 PM
 #11076


I am sure you have heard about Monero, which is anonymous, and can already work as a BTC mixer, and in the future as a standalone coin.

Bitcoin vs Monero anonymity

1) Bitcoin
Jim owns 10 BTC,
Bob 5 BTC
and Carol 2 BTC (this is in blockchain)

2) Monero
Jim, Bob and Carol own 17 XMR together,  Jim can spend 2 times more than Bob and 5 times more than Carol. (this is in blockchain .. or Carol can spend Jim's money?)

zeetubes
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August 23, 2014, 10:43:17 PM
 #11077

What do you think of this http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/6065/swiss-gold-initiative?

"Interest is beginning to build, awareness is growing and the date of the national referendum has been set. Later this year, on November 30, the good people of Switzerland will finally get an opportunity to make their voices heard. The Swiss Gold Initiative can be roughly stated in three parts:

 1   The halting of all Swiss gold sales
 2   The repatriation of all Swiss gold that is held in foreign vaults
 3   Resume backing the Swiss Franc with gold, at a minimum level of 20%"


Not much, obviously

A couple of things come to mind:

1) the price of gold will be crushed two days before the vote.

2) it must be interesting to live in a country which is somewhat democratic. On the rare occasion that other western countries hold a voter referendum, there are usually two choices, neither of which are attractive options.

Edit: it would also be very cool and great PR if someone offered up a blockchain based voting system for Swiss referenda.
cypherdoc
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August 24, 2014, 12:22:08 AM
 #11078

the idea continues to catch on:

Transport and Velocity: Could Bitcoin be a Replacement for Gold?

"People can hold stores of it, as well as spend it – a property that gold cannot compete with.

“It’s important to note that gold isn’t used as currency anywhere today,” said Ash."


http://www.coindesk.com/transport-velocity-bitcoin-replacement-gold/

cypherdoc
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August 24, 2014, 12:26:12 AM
 #11079

all these sub 500 dips are being bought; by me.
RobFordWotWot
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August 24, 2014, 12:30:51 AM
 #11080

“It’s important to note that gold isn’t used as currency anywhere today,” said Ash."

Wait so these gold dinars aren't really used in Libya now?

Horses in midstream.
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