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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805139 times)
User705
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August 18, 2014, 08:25:16 PM
 #10801

You might be interested to read the discussion Vitalik came over and had with the nxt developers where he comes to the conclusion that nxt does things much better then it looks on the surface

https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bounty-for-successful-nothing-at-stake-attack/msg60114/#msg60114

To quote vbuterin

"So basically you use transactions-as-proof-of-stake. That sounds reasonable; it's as good as I can think of at this point, although it has the moderately-serious-but-not-fatal flaws that I described in my On Stake article. I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics."



Also Nxt cannot be forked back more then 720 blocks so that alone would thwart the attack mentioned in your paper. Not to mention the economic clustering feature and transparent forging that's in development...

Just like with bitcoin, I'd thought you be more aware that systems evolve. Just looking at their surface and taking them at face value is incredibly short sighted.



like i've said before, Vitalik's understanding of "fairness" doesn't impress me.  so how does he apply his view of the world into Ethereum and now NXT?  probably the same way.

you talk like NXT is a guaranteed success and everyone who disagrees with you is shortsighted.  you may be right; but again you may be wrong.
you talk like bitcoin is a guaranteed success.  PoW is either bitcoins greatest strength or it's greatest weakness.   
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August 18, 2014, 08:33:49 PM
 #10802

Hahah btc getting bitchslapped as usual.

Gold is money, everything else is a fad. Remember that, kiddo !
smoothie
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August 18, 2014, 08:34:28 PM
 #10803

Lots of bias-ness in this thread.  Roll Eyes

I'm pro Bitcoin and pro Litecoin. I hold both so I am biased for those two for sure.

███████████████████████████████████████

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 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
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     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

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User705
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August 18, 2014, 08:37:50 PM
 #10804

Hahah btc getting bitchslapped as usual.

Gold is money, everything else is a fad. Remember that, kiddo !
yep. The internet is a fad too.  Maybe we should just use pigeons to send each other fractions of gold dust.  That's much better then bitcoin.
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August 18, 2014, 08:39:34 PM
 #10805

Hahah btc getting bitchslapped as usual.

Gold is money, everything else is a fad. Remember that, kiddo !

Nevertheless I believe we are going to a 1000 based on market analysis

Oh, i dont doubt it's going up. Way up. But, not before it dips one more time to 35 bucks lol i dont want to get suckered on my first coin purchase.

I now understand your negative attitude. You're still waiting for $35.

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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August 18, 2014, 08:46:39 PM
 #10806

Hahah btc getting bitchslapped as usual.

Gold is money, everything else is a fad. Remember that, kiddo !
yep. The internet is a fad too.  Maybe we should just use pigeons to send each other fractions of gold dust.  That's much better then bitcoin.

As if commodities cant be digitized ? Nice try, Shill.

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August 18, 2014, 08:49:16 PM
 #10807

Hahah btc getting bitchslapped as usual.

Gold is money, everything else is a fad. Remember that, kiddo !
yep. The internet is a fad too.  Maybe we should just use pigeons to send each other fractions of gold dust.  That's much better then bitcoin.

As if commodities cant be digitized ? Nice try, Shill.


ROFL
Who would I be shilling for? 
Mr scientist please tell us how we can digitize gold.  Perhaps a Star Trek transporter is in order. 
Melbustus
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August 18, 2014, 08:54:08 PM
 #10808

...
The perspective is skewed as we are comparing Bitcoin which is over 5 years old to Litecoin which is less than 3 years old. Uneven metric for comparison.
...


Invalid. As I noted on page 530:

...
Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?
...


No. You said that further upthread too, and I let you get away with it, but this is the 2nd time, so...no! You cannot compare the time-since-inception independently for each since Bitcoin CREATED the entire crypto-currency ecosystem from scratch and had to fight that nasty battle solo. All cryptos are basically coat-tailing on the interest and groundbreaking that bitcoin has done.

So if Litecoin has any merit at all, it *should* show A LOT more relative interest/market-cap/whatever 2.75yrs into its lifecycle versus bitcoin 2.75yrs in. Litecoin has the benefit of letting something else pioneer the space; and that was the actual hard work.

Using any metric about Litecoin 2.75yrs-in versus Bitcoin 2.75yrs-in in order to supposedly demonstrate some sort of comparative long-run litecoin validity is just broken...



Perhaps you are somewhat right but at the same time comparing 5.5 year Bitcoin to less than 3 year old Litecoin is also skewed no matter which way you try to debunk it.

It is the same as trying to compare as I said previously a Bill Gates to a newly created 18 year old millionaire. You can't compare them as one has had much more time and exposure.

As is the same as Bitcoin which has had much more time and exposure.

"scratch and had to fight that nasty battle"?...lol you make as if Bitocin consciously fought anything. Bitcoin is a protocol and payment network and it doesn't have a conscious to "scratch" and "fight" anything.

A math problem does not fight to keep its absolute truth of its value by just being what it is....2 + 2 will always equal 4 and it doesn't have to fight to be anything but 4 as the answer.

Please stop trying to attempt to make Bitcoin out to be a self-conscious system that had to do such things and should be given credit when it also benefited by the exposure it has had and over the time it has been around.

To say otherwise is also a broken argument.  Grin


I used "scratch" as a noun, not a verb. I think you skimmed my post. I stand by argument, finding nothing new in yours.



Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
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August 18, 2014, 09:08:26 PM
 #10809

You might be interested to read the discussion Vitalik came over and had with the nxt developers where he comes to the conclusion that nxt does things much better then it looks on the surface

https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bounty-for-successful-nothing-at-stake-attack/msg60114/#msg60114

To quote vbuterin

"So basically you use transactions-as-proof-of-stake. That sounds reasonable; it's as good as I can think of at this point, although it has the moderately-serious-but-not-fatal flaws that I described in my On Stake article. I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics."



Also Nxt cannot be forked back more then 720 blocks so that alone would thwart the attack mentioned in your paper. Not to mention the economic clustering feature and transparent forging that's in development...

Just like with bitcoin, I'd thought you be more aware that systems evolve. Just looking at their surface and taking them at face value is incredibly short sighted.



like i've said before, Vitalik's understanding of "fairness" doesn't impress me.  so how does he apply his view of the world into Ethereum and now NXT?  probably the same way.

you talk like NXT is a guaranteed success and everyone who disagrees with you is shortsighted.  you may be right; but again you may be wrong.
you talk like bitcoin is a guaranteed success.  PoW is either bitcoins greatest strength or it's greatest weakness.   

true, but who has a better chance at being right, mrE or me?
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August 18, 2014, 09:09:50 PM
 #10810

Hahah btc getting bitchslapped as usual.

Gold is money, everything else is a fad. Remember that, kiddo !

haha, gold bug troll.  look further up in the thread for record of over 10000% swing trade of gold for BTC! 

Boy!
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August 18, 2014, 09:12:51 PM
 #10811


true, but who has a better chance at being right, mrE or me?
No clue.  But do you disagree that if working correctly PoS would be better then PoW or no?  This is OT to this thread anyways.  Maybe a different thread is better.  Your opinion on the subject is valuable.
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August 18, 2014, 09:23:21 PM
 #10812


true, but who has a better chance at being right, mrE or me?
No clue.  But do you disagree that if working correctly PoS would be better then PoW or no?  This is OT to this thread anyways.  Maybe a different thread is better.  Your opinion on the subject is valuable.

i don't really think so.

if you go back thru the last 2d of postings btwn mrE, kodtycoon, and the rest of us POS naysayers, you'll see all the arguments as well as the paper posted by JR explaining why POS won't work.
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August 18, 2014, 09:31:11 PM
 #10813


true, but who has a better chance at being right, mrE or me?
No clue.  But do you disagree that if working correctly PoS would be better then PoW or no?  This is OT to this thread anyways.  Maybe a different thread is better.  Your opinion on the subject is valuable.

i don't really think so.

if you go back thru the last 2d of postings btwn mrE, kodtycoon, and the rest of us POS naysayers, you'll see all the arguments as well as the paper posted by JR explaining why POS won't work.
It's natural for people to want to get the properties Bitcoin provides without needing to expend the energy to produce proof of work, insofar as the desire to get something for nothing is completely natural and common to living things.

Consider that the degree to which people are so desperately trying to avoid PoW is the exactly why we know PoW is a good solution to the problem.
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August 18, 2014, 09:32:40 PM
 #10814


true, but who has a better chance at being right, mrE or me?
No clue.  But do you disagree that if working correctly PoS would be better then PoW or no?  This is OT to this thread anyways.  Maybe a different thread is better.  Your opinion on the subject is valuable.

i think that solving the BGP was a huge deal.  for the first time in history data can be secured on the internet and consensus achieved despite the presence of malicious attackers.  and yet the POS ppl come in here and diss the very essence of that POW accomplishment by Satoshi.

they have a helluva lot more to prove going forward than any of us who acknowledge said accomplishment.
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August 18, 2014, 10:25:25 PM
 #10815

PoW may be the right solution way but economically it presents it's own problems.  Currently all the holders are subsidizing the cheap transaction fees.  Once that goes away either transaction costs have to go way up or the system can be cheaply attacked.  Last block transactions fees were .06 BTC and the holders subsidized those low fees with 25 BTC inflationary block reward.  No matter which way you slice it no one can honestly know that PoW is working.  Currently it's block reward speculation that's keeping people mining not anything to do with transaction fee income or security of block chain.  Looking at PoW separately from bitcoin.  Either it has to be expensive and secure but for that fees have to be high or it is cheap but then it can't be secure.  It can't be both cheap and secure.  That's the downside of "tethering" to the real world of using resources on PoW.  Perhaps as you stated cypher bitcoin will evolve to be the reserve currency of the world but then it will likely look very different then what it it today.
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August 18, 2014, 10:46:24 PM
 #10816

Once that goes away either transaction costs have to go way up or the system can be cheaply attacked.
The transaction fee revenue needs to go up. Are you sure that increasing transaction fees is the only way to accomplish this?

Does McDonalds achieve their revenue by selling a small number of expensive items, or do they try to sell a large number of inexpensive items?
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August 18, 2014, 10:52:16 PM
 #10817

PoW may be the right solution way but economically it presents it's own problems.  Currently all the holders are subsidizing the cheap transaction fees.  Once that goes away either transaction costs have to go way up or the system can be cheaply attacked.  Last block transactions fees were .06 BTC and the holders subsidized those low fees with 25 BTC inflationary block reward.  No matter which way you slice it no one can honestly know that PoW is working.  Currently it's block reward speculation that's keeping people mining not anything to do with transaction fee income or security of block chain.  Looking at PoW separately from bitcoin.  Either it has to be expensive and secure but for that fees have to be high or it is cheap but then it can't be secure.  It can't be both cheap and secure.  That's the downside of "tethering" to the real world of using resources on PoW.  Perhaps as you stated cypher bitcoin will evolve to be the reserve currency of the world but then it will likely look very different then what it it today.

well now, that is Bitcoin's Tension isn' it?  we don't know for sure.  but all indications are it is, 5.5 yrs in.  sure the tx fees need to increase as block rewards go down to compensate miners.  i think they will.  personally, i don't care which way Bitcoin goes as either a reserve currency (huge fees tacked onto few tx's) or mainly as a transactional currency (small fees tacked onto a boatload of tx's).  it may not matter in the end.  what may only matter is that it's open source, transparent, and idealistically all inclusive for ppl worldwide.  as long as the average person feels they aren't getting screwed by The Man, that may be all that is necessary for success.
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August 19, 2014, 05:17:48 AM
 #10818

keep buying.

shorts getting overstretched:

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August 19, 2014, 05:20:32 AM
 #10819

keep buying.

shorts getting overstretched:



Buying now hopefully it keeps going up.
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August 19, 2014, 05:34:11 AM
 #10820

...
The perspective is skewed as we are comparing Bitcoin which is over 5 years old to Litecoin which is less than 3 years old. Uneven metric for comparison.
...


Invalid. As I noted on page 530:

...
Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?
...


No. You said that further upthread too, and I let you get away with it, but this is the 2nd time, so...no! You cannot compare the time-since-inception independently for each since Bitcoin CREATED the entire crypto-currency ecosystem from scratch and had to fight that nasty battle solo. All cryptos are basically coat-tailing on the interest and groundbreaking that bitcoin has done.

So if Litecoin has any merit at all, it *should* show A LOT more relative interest/market-cap/whatever 2.75yrs into its lifecycle versus bitcoin 2.75yrs in. Litecoin has the benefit of letting something else pioneer the space; and that was the actual hard work.

Using any metric about Litecoin 2.75yrs-in versus Bitcoin 2.75yrs-in in order to supposedly demonstrate some sort of comparative long-run litecoin validity is just broken...



Perhaps you are somewhat right but at the same time comparing 5.5 year Bitcoin to less than 3 year old Litecoin is also skewed no matter which way you try to debunk it.

It is the same as trying to compare as I said previously a Bill Gates to a newly created 18 year old millionaire. You can't compare them as one has had much more time and exposure.

As is the same as Bitcoin which has had much more time and exposure.

"scratch and had to fight that nasty battle"?...lol you make as if Bitocin consciously fought anything. Bitcoin is a protocol and payment network and it doesn't have a conscious to "scratch" and "fight" anything.

A math problem does not fight to keep its absolute truth of its value by just being what it is....2 + 2 will always equal 4 and it doesn't have to fight to be anything but 4 as the answer.

Please stop trying to attempt to make Bitcoin out to be a self-conscious system that had to do such things and should be given credit when it also benefited by the exposure it has had and over the time it has been around.

To say otherwise is also a broken argument.  Grin


I used "scratch" as a noun, not a verb. I think you skimmed my post. I stand by argument, finding nothing new in yours.




Yes you are correct I skimmed it. Sorry with as many posts I read every day I am bound to misread a part of one at some point. Forgive me.  Grin

You obviously did not address the word "fight" and how Bitcoin did that.

Nothing new? LOL yes please ignore the fact that you obviously said that Bitcoin fought a battle.

As if it has a conscience.

I would say that is pretty new information in our little debate about comparing Bitcoin and Litecoin and useful metric of comparing them on how "successful" they are. Hence why I said your argument was broken given using that statement.

Full Disclosure: I was one of the few who bought LTC when they were ~$0.005 each. So yes I would know how to call things pretty well (i.e. that it was a bargain back then) even when there was the same type of statements about LTC that are being spouted today (i.e. "Litecoin is dying" blah blah).

The obvious bias to Litecoin that some here have is fine as they are entitled to their opinion but it is somewhat funny when the same things happen to Bitcoin in terms of price suppression those same things are ignored.

Just so everyone is aware...

When bitcoin was 2.75 years old it was ~$4-$6.

and

When Litecoin was 2.75 years old it too was ~$4-$6...

So when I say that comparing them using a time metric of life span is less skewed than comparing them in today's terms (as if Litecoin is even competing against Bitcoin ...which it is not in my view)....I actually do have a point...

Given I asked the original question:

...
Where was Bitcoin when it was at 2.75 years old?
...

Did you even look up your facts before trying to debunk my thought process and argument with your "Bitcoin fought that battle" statement?

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                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA  PHYSICAL MONERO COINS 999 FINE SILVER.
 
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