Bitcoin Forum
March 19, 2024, 10:54:11 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 26.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 [549] 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 ... 1557 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2032123 times)
rpietila
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 05:31:53 PM
 #10961

for all my former subs, what do u see here?  answer: a series of L translated cycles:



If it cracks that triple bottom at around 18.5...

Yeah. All I see is a tremendous support.

Silver is not a stock. It does not go to zero.

HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
1710845651
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710845651

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710845651
Reply with quote  #2

1710845651
Report to moderator
1710845651
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710845651

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710845651
Reply with quote  #2

1710845651
Report to moderator
1710845651
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710845651

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710845651
Reply with quote  #2

1710845651
Report to moderator
Remember that Bitcoin is still beta software. Don't put all of your money into BTC!
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1710845651
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1710845651

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1710845651
Reply with quote  #2

1710845651
Report to moderator
Ivanhoe
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 841
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 05:33:35 PM
 #10962

for all my former subs, what do u see here?  answer: a series of L translated cycles:



If it cracks that triple bottom at around 18.5...

Yeah. All I see is a tremendous support.

Silver is not a stock. It does not go to zero.
Don't the lower high's worry you then?
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 06:26:59 PM
 #10963

http://mcalvanyweeklycommentary.com/

Ambrose Pritchard Evans @ 44min:

"major, major dollar rally".
rpietila
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 06:32:28 PM
 #10964

Don't the lower high's worry you then?

Well I am in general the type of person that honestly does not care how much things are valued in $hitpaper.

Proudly. Ever since 2006.

HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
adamstgBit
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037


Trusted Bitcoiner


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2014, 06:39:22 PM
 #10965

Don't the lower high's worry you then?

Well I am in general the type of person that honestly does not care how much things are valued in $hitpaper.

Proudly. Ever since 2006.

and for that reason i pray for 16$ silver b4 its all said and done.

cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 06:54:15 PM
 #10966

Don't the lower high's worry you then?

Well I am in general the type of person that honestly does not care how much things are valued in $hitpaper.

Proudly. Ever since 2006.

Paging Melbustus.
Lowryder
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 30
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:05:28 PM
 #10967

no change here.  Bitcoin has devastated this asset:

https://i.imgur.com/dLlQyi1.png

https://www.goldbroker.com/en/news/paper-silver-market-250-times-size-physical-silver-market-526

What would you think happens when the 'tie' breaks, real is real, paper is worthless.

Think of  a scenario, let's say a position of metric ton of pure silver. Will have some value  Smiley
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:08:26 PM
 #10968

no change here.  Bitcoin has devastated this asset:



https://www.goldbroker.com/en/news/paper-silver-market-250-times-size-physical-silver-market-526

What would you think happens when the 'tie' breaks, real is real, paper is worthless.

Think of  a scenario, let's say a position of metric ton of pure silver. Will have some value  Smiley

They can always paper over the paper with more paper.  Besides, silver is mostly worthless other than as a speculation.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
Lowryder
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 30
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:15:01 PM
 #10969

no change here.  Bitcoin has devastated this asset:

https://i.imgur.com/dLlQyi1.png

https://www.goldbroker.com/en/news/paper-silver-market-250-times-size-physical-silver-market-526

What would you think happens when the 'tie' breaks, real is real, paper is worthless.

Think of  a scenario, let's say a position of metric ton of pure silver. Will have some value  Smiley

They can always paper over the paper with more paper.  Besides, silver is mostly worthless other than as a speculation.

You havent do your homework dude.
https://images.angelpub.com/2014/08/23250/silver-usage-pie-chart.png

Most of the silver used in industry cannot be recycled.
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:16:59 PM
 #10970

no change here.  Bitcoin has devastated this asset:



https://www.goldbroker.com/en/news/paper-silver-market-250-times-size-physical-silver-market-526

What would you think happens when the 'tie' breaks, real is real, paper is worthless.

Think of  a scenario, let's say a position of metric ton of pure silver. Will have some value  Smiley

Think of it this way.

Speculators leveraged up free fiat from the Fed and bid up the silver market into the May 2011 peak. Now that the market has reversed, leverage is being margin called out of the silver market. Prices are collapsing as a result.
Lowryder
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 30
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:51:36 PM
 #10971

no change here.  Bitcoin has devastated this asset:

https://i.imgur.com/dLlQyi1.png

https://www.goldbroker.com/en/news/paper-silver-market-250-times-size-physical-silver-market-526

What would you think happens when the 'tie' breaks, real is real, paper is worthless.

Think of  a scenario, let's say a position of metric ton of pure silver. Will have some value  Smiley

Think of it this way.

Speculators leveraged up free fiat from the Fed and bid up the silver market into the May 2011 peak. Now that the market has reversed, leverage is being margin called out of the silver market. Prices are collapsing as a result.

And?
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:08:26 PM
 #10972


You havent do your homework dude.


Most of the silver used in industry cannot be recycled.


So 50% industrial/photography, the rest is investment related (people desire jewelry because it is valuable, same with actual silver silverware).  Also, way to go giving me a graphic with no source information and no details about what timeframe the numbers are from.  Maybe I should bust out excel and "prove" you wrong with my own graph.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:22:13 PM
Last edit: August 22, 2014, 09:37:42 PM by cypherdoc
 #10973

@ cypher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmi_3Q0w9kE&feature=youtu.be&t=15m49s  (total 6 min)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ea79w/at_the_end_of_the_day_currency_language/

The above Naval Ravikant - you-tube, from Reddit I think sums up nicely the common ground that Bitcoin will always be the base reserve and the opportunity for alts or support services like OT.

i disagree with some of Naval's concepts.

1. @ 5min he talks about a Dropbox appcoin where instead of POW it uses Proof of Storage.  WTF is that?  he goes on to say that the appcoin derives its supply and demand from trading btwn those who provide and those who request storage. that's fine. but what happened to the POW security mechanism for the appcoin?
2. he advocates for the appcoin networks-the problem is they all have identifiable creators (Satoshi stayed anonymous for a reason) and they are premining coins.  creators can be thrown in prison and the premining would be a problem for me.  are Satoshi's coins a problem for me?  no, b/c he kick started his own mining after releasing the open source Bitcoin software and everyone was free to have mined back then if they had the foresight and the luck to have heard about Bitcoin.  at this point, the general concensus is that he may never sell his coins or if he does, it will be when Bitcoin is @ $10000-100000. good for him.  but everyone else who starts an appcoin w/o a POW security mechanism or a decent chance at developing a network effect isn't for me.
3. i view these appcoins as nothing more than the same business structures we have today in fiat.  and they're just complicating things with an appcoin that actually might make things worse since they don't necessarily have a rational POW security mechanism for their coins.
4. these appcoins networks are just specialized closed source communities serving a defined function. they will never reach the size of a money system like Bitcoin.  
5. money affects everyone round the world.  this is why we have global participation in Bitcoin and this is critical to it's security.  no one gvt can shut it down b/c gvt's disagree over the long run.  their varied interests is what assures the game theory Nash equilibrium that keeps each of them in check as they each worry that the other might just be building secrets mines and support for Bitcoin.  this is why we have the network effect we do.
6. as far as allowing these appcoins to merge mine onto the Bitcoin network?  i view that as leeching.  Namecoin, ok. it was an early merged coin and the DNS function could serve a valuable purpose in the future.  but other appcoins/shitcoins?  no way.  i'm not a dev but from my understanding there does need to be some special code inserted into the mining software to allow merged mining and i doubt there is zero cost to that.  also, why should we as Bitcoiner's allow an appcoin distract from what Bitcoin is trying to do?  Bitcoin itself is not out of the woods yet so i will seriously resist any appcoin/altcoin/2.0 that tries to leech off our network.
cypherdoc (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:25:28 PM
 #10974

no change here.  Bitcoin has devastated this asset:



https://www.goldbroker.com/en/news/paper-silver-market-250-times-size-physical-silver-market-526

What would you think happens when the 'tie' breaks, real is real, paper is worthless.

Think of  a scenario, let's say a position of metric ton of pure silver. Will have some value  Smiley

Think of it this way.

Speculators leveraged up free fiat from the Fed and bid up the silver market into the May 2011 peak. Now that the market has reversed, leverage is being margin called out of the silver market. Prices are collapsing as a result.

And?

and what?  Bitcoin?  are u kidding me?  we're still in a large consolidation phase and the successive lows are still higher over a short 8 mo time period.  this is just the pause before the next ramp.
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:27:33 PM
 #10975

@ cypher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmi_3Q0w9kE&feature=youtu.be&t=15m49s  (total 6 min)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ea79w/at_the_end_of_the_day_currency_language/

The above Naval Ravikant - you-tube, from Reddit I think sums up nicely the common ground that Bitcoin will always be the base reserve and the opportunity for alts or support services like OT.

i disagree with Naval's concepts.

1. @ 5min he talks about a Dropbox appcoin where instead of POW it uses Proof of Storage.  WTF is that?  he goes on to say that the appcoin derives its supply and demand from trading btwn those who provide and those who request storage. that's fine. but what happened to the POW security mechanism for the appcoin?

Not defending it, but here is some more info.
https://storj.io
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIf5QsYrCb0

Quote
2. he advocates for the appcoin networks-the problem is they all have identifiable creators (Satoshi stayed anonymous for a reason) and they are premining coins.  creators can be thrown in prison and the premining would be a problem for me.  are Satoshi's coins a problem for me?  no, b/c he kick started his own mining after releasing the open source Bitcoin software and everyone was free to have mined back then if they had the foresight and the luck to have heard about Bitcoin.  at this point, the general concensus is that he may never sell his coins or if he does, it will be when Bitcoin is @ $10000-100000. good for him.  but everyone else who starts an appcoin w/o a POW security mechanism or a decent chance at developing a network effect isn't for me.
3. i view these appcoins as nothing more than the same business structures we have today in fiat.  and they're just complicating things with an appcoin that actually might make things worse since they don't necessarily have a rational POW security mechanism for their coins.
4. these appcoins networks are just specialized closed source communities serving a defined function. they will never reach the size of a money system like Bitcoin.  
5. money affects everyone round the world.  this is why we have global participation in Bitcoin and this is critical to it's security.  no one gvt can shut it down b/c gvt's disagree over the long run.  their varied interests is what assures the game theory Nash equilibrium that keeps each of them in check as they each worry that the other might just be building secrets mines and support for Bitcoin.
6. as far as allowing these appcoins to merge mine onto the Bitcoin network?  i view that as leeching.  Namecoin, ok. it was an early merged coin and the DNS function could serve a valuable purpose in the future.  but other appcoins/shitcoins?  no way.  i'm not a dev but from my understanding there does need to be some special code inserted into the mining software to allow merged mining and i doubt there is zero cost to that.  also, why should we as Bitcoiner's allow an appcoin distract from what Bitcoin is trying to do?  Bitcoin itself is not out of the woods yet so i will seriously resist any appcoin/altcoin/2.0 that tries to leech off our network.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3920
Merit: 2347


Eadem mutata resurgo


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:34:56 PM
 #10976

@ cypher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmi_3Q0w9kE&feature=youtu.be&t=15m49s  (total 6 min)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ea79w/at_the_end_of_the_day_currency_language/

The above Naval Ravikant - you-tube, from Reddit I think sums up nicely the common ground that Bitcoin will always be the base reserve and the opportunity for alts or support services like OT.

... this guy is GETTTING IT.

Bitcoin combined with cryptofinancial technologies like an openTXS layer will let value information rip asunder all the BS lawyering and institutionalised graft intermediators incessantly stack on top of anything productive from its inception.

The writing is on the wall ... money, banks, corporations, States ... everything will now inevitably be renegotiated in the new language of value technologies, eventually.

Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:56:53 PM
Last edit: August 22, 2014, 10:25:33 PM by Peter R
 #10977

Today's appcoins are disingenuous.  

Ripple, Ethereum, Maidsafe, Storj, etc talk about their tokens as "postage stamps" or as "fuel" necessary to run their networks, yet there's this underlying feel of "yeah, but we can't stop people from speculating with them…ahem..ahem."  I feel that appcoins are thinly-disguised attempts to profit from investor naïveté.  

So what is the equilibrium value of an appcoin?  If the appcoin is "fuel" to run the network, and if participating in the network is open and competitive, then the value of fuel needed to use the app will approach the cost of running the app.  As technology improves, the value should drop.  

Moreover, does it not make more sense to run decentralized apps using bitcoin as fuel (or tokens pegged to bitcoin), and something like m-of-n oracles as the gateway between the networks?  Oracles and the app networks would compete for these bitcoins, and the cost of using these services would constantly drop in price due to innovation and competition.  Apps payable directly in bitcoin will thus become cheaper and better than closed-network "appcoins" like Storj or Ethereum, stealing the latter's market share.  Appcoins that aren't pegged will devalue to zero (unless they somehow develop "money-like" properties but I highly doubt this).  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3920
Merit: 2347


Eadem mutata resurgo


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:33:39 PM
 #10978

Today's appcoins are disingenuous.  

Ripple, Ethereum, Maidsafe, Storj, etc talk about their tokens as "postage stamps" or as "fuel" necessary to run their networks, yet there's this underlying feel of "yeah, but we can't stop people from speculating with them…ahem..ahem."  I feel that appcoins are thinly-disguised attempts to profit from investor naïveté.  

So what is the equilibrium value of an appcoin?  If the appcoin is "fuel" to run the network, and if participating in the network is open and competitive, then the value of fuel needed to use the app will approach the marginal cost of running the app.  As technology improves, the value should drop.  

Moreover, does it not make more sense to run decentralized apps using bitcoin as fuel (or tokens pegged to bitcoin), and something like m-of-n oracles as the gateway between the networks?  Oracles and the app networks would compete for these bitcoins, and the cost of using these services would constantly drop in price due to innovation and competition.  Apps payable directly in bitcoin will thus become cheaper and better than closed-network "appcoins" like Storj or Ethereum, stealing the latter's market share.  Appcoins that aren't pegged will devalue to zero (unless they somehow develop "money-like" properties but I highly doubt this).  

I'm inclined to agree somewhat about the disingenuity but are they really much different to some of the super speculative penny stocks that are out there? I mean one of these appcoins could actually become the next Google or Facebook or Dropbox or iTunes type app and it that case they are probably hugely undervalued. What their speculative value represents right now is the 0.1% chance that they could become a multi-billion dollar DAC (in effect). It helps to think of these "coins" as shares in a distributed corporation that is providing the service ... a corporation that does not need seed funding (lawyering/accountants), VC's (more lawyering/accountants) and IPO (even more lawyering/accountants)market makers, etc, etc ... they are a very efficient share/asset/ownership delivery mechanism.

Maybe we need to expand out minds past the *coin suffix perception into the digital realm where a "coin" is anything that represents digital value ... shares, property rights, digital keys to houses, cars, services.

Carlton Banks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3430
Merit: 3068



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:56:51 PM
 #10979

Moreover, does it not make more sense to run decentralized apps using bitcoin as fuel (or tokens pegged to bitcoin), and something like m-of-n oracles as the gateway between the networks?  Oracles and the app networks would compete for these bitcoins, and the cost of using these services would constantly drop in price due to innovation and competition.  Apps payable directly in bitcoin will thus become cheaper and better than closed-network "appcoins" like Storj or Ethereum, stealing the latter's market share.  Appcoins that aren't pegged will devalue to zero (unless they somehow develop "money-like" properties but I highly doubt this).  

You can reduce the argument right down when you look at the broader economic context. Namely, why even use a service, however well it provides that service at a mechanistic level, that needs it's own special tokens? Unless the service fails as a concept without a built in currency, then the developers are adding friction to information services instead of continuing in satoshi's spirit of liberation as they claim to. It's all wrong from a plain information theory perspective, either you're a distributed TLD system or you're a currency. If you want to be both, expect inefficiency, confusion or conflict. Put another way, imagine if we all did this in commerce now? Shoecoin at footwear stores, foodcoin when you buy food but don't forget to keep some beercoin just in case you buy that at the same time. No beercoin? Hey, we convert at great rates! Doesn't take alot to see where that would end up... everyone who's not profiteering agreeing on something universal.

There will be a natural recognition that schizophrenic designs don't benefit users, and so Namecoin and Maidsafe will survive in their overall purpose as differentiated from bitcoin, but the token component cannot. If the tokens are not made optional or allow for direct access to the bitcoin protocol, then they won't compete well against rival systems that employ bitcoin as money and stick to addressing the actual problem they purport to solve.


Vires in numeris
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:04:16 PM
Last edit: August 22, 2014, 11:17:40 PM by Peter R
 #10980

Today's appcoins are disingenuous.  

Ripple, Ethereum, Maidsafe, Storj, etc talk about their tokens as "postage stamps" or as "fuel" necessary to run their networks, yet there's this underlying feel of "yeah, but we can't stop people from speculating with them…ahem..ahem."  I feel that appcoins are thinly-disguised attempts to profit from investor naïveté.  

So what is the equilibrium value of an appcoin?  If the appcoin is "fuel" to run the network, and if participating in the network is open and competitive, then the value of fuel needed to use the app will approach the marginal cost of running the app.  As technology improves, the value should drop.  

Moreover, does it not make more sense to run decentralized apps using bitcoin as fuel (or tokens pegged to bitcoin), and something like m-of-n oracles as the gateway between the networks?  Oracles and the app networks would compete for these bitcoins, and the cost of using these services would constantly drop in price due to innovation and competition.  Apps payable directly in bitcoin will thus become cheaper and better than closed-network "appcoins" like Storj or Ethereum, stealing the latter's market share.  Appcoins that aren't pegged will devalue to zero (unless they somehow develop "money-like" properties but I highly doubt this).  

I'm inclined to agree somewhat about the disingenuity but are they really much different to some of the super speculative penny stocks that are out there? I mean one of these appcoins could actually become the next Google or Facebook or Dropbox or iTunes type app and it that case they are probably hugely undervalued. What their speculative value represents right now is the 0.1% chance that they could become a multi-billion dollar DAC (in effect). It helps to think of these "coins" as shares in a distributed corporation that is providing the service ... a corporation that does not need seed funding (lawyering/accountants), VC's (more lawyering/accountants) and IPO (even more lawyering/accountants)market makers, etc, etc ... they are a very efficient share/asset/ownership delivery mechanism.

Maybe we need to expand out minds past the *coin suffix perception into the digital realm where a "coin" is anything that represents digital value ... shares, property rights, digital keys to houses, cars, services.

I'm a big advocate for disintermediation so I'm not questioning the value of decentralized services like Storj.  I'm questioning the value proposition of the app's token.  I don't think you can view them as shares.

Let's consider a decentralized DropBox service.  Nodes providing the service (storage) get paid for their work.  If the pay is good, more nodes will join the network, thereby reducing the cost of storage for users.  It's a competitive market.  You can acquire an x% share in the network by providing x% of the storage capacity, and thus earn x% of the network revenue.  So, you don't need to buy a share; you just join the network and you immediately have whatever share of the network that you're contributing!  It's beautifully simple!

Now consider Storjcoin as a share and I think we end up with a contradiction.  If I hold x% of the Storjcoins(shares), should I not earn x% of the revenue from the Storj network?  If they were shares then I should.  But I don't: the revenue flows to the nodes providing the service.  The nodes are the shareholders!  So Storjcoin is not a share.

What is Storjcoin then?  


Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
Pages: « 1 ... 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 [549] 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 ... 1557 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!