Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack

[zhoutong]

I believe so. He handled this matter very professionally and I'm going to continue recovering the fiat money from the hackers.

Why the plural? Is this just a Freudian slip or are there more hackers involved besides Chen?

Sorry. It was a typo.

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[Phinnaeus Gage]

There is more than a single person behind the user zhoutong. There is a ghost writer following the instructions of another person which dictates every answer. A single person could not express such astonishing English skills so well garnished with technical details.

There is enough contradictions in every response from zhoutong which indicates the information is consistently fictional.

Not one single character or description is factual.

A script is in place and the user behind the zhoutong avatar is only following the lines.

FTFY

[sarpar]

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.

If later found out that the recoverable stolen funds exceed $140K in total, then it will be my personal liability to deal with Bitcoinica directly. In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

In the situation you are in I forbid you to retain anything at all as long there are liabilities to Bitcoinica customers. Your personal liabilities come second and I personally don't care.
In case you are behind all that (And I want to keep this option open) that move is just a smart way of circumventing AML-investigations. You also wouldnt be responsible to prove the legitimacy of these funds anymore. Comparing the total amount of returned vs. stolen funds that leaves still the possibility of you making a profit in this hack (hypothetical situation)
Also moving the risk of goverment seizure of your friends funds or lengthy unblocking procedure to Bitcoinica customers is just unfair. We as customers were not involved in money laundering YOUR FRIEND WAS so he has to take the risk!

[repentance]

Seriously? You would send your friend stolen funds? If I were your friend I would not accept them. If an investigation took place he would become involved since the stolen funds would be traced to him. You say he is reading this thread so he should be well aware of what's going on.

If Zhou's friend had a large amount of LR he wanted to convert then presumably he has the funds to retain a lawyer who can advise him about the wisdom of agreeing to such an arrangement.  His friend should certainly be made aware that his funds are now the subject of an AML investigation, though, before he's asked to agree to them being moved anywhere else or to receiving them back through an indirect means.  The more roundabout, intervening transactions there are between him giving the funds to Zhou to exchange and him receiving his funds back, the more it's going to look like money laundering to any investigator (especially if the source from which the funds are being returned can't be confirmed).

In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

Neither you nor I know whether AurumXchange can release funds which are the subject of an AML investigation and if so under what circumstances and to whom.  Whatever persuasive arguments you may believe you have for them releasing those funds, the only people they should be listening to regarding that are their own legal advisors and their AML regulator.  There is no reason whatsoever they should risk legal fall-out themselves for the convenience of others.  They most certainly didn't create this clusterfuck and the have every right to protect themselves first and foremost from the legal risks which the money launderer brought to their door step.

It does taint your account to receive funds from an account linked to criminal activity, and this taint can be linked to real, established charges.

And often the whole account will be frozen until the legitimacy of all the funds in the account can be established.

[IIOII]

Chen Jianhai is reading this thread. He just made a screenshot. Proof:



 

[muyuu]

Fiat money is not Bitcoin. Your one dollar and my one dollar are identical. A scammer sending you $0.01 by mistake shouldn't taint your entire bank account. I just have to make sure the sums are correct and Bitcoinica gets everything Chen Jianhai promised to pay back.

It does taint your account to receive funds from an account linked to criminal activity, and this taint can be linked to real, established charges.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Please, be rational.

Of course...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1062656#msg1062656

Currently I can recover at most 20,000 BTC and $140,000 from Chen Jianhai.

(...)

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but we don't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point we are short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.

(...)

"We" means community?

Who is short $42,000? The thief is never "short" of any money. It must be Bitcoinica customers.

AFAIK he used Blockchain's mixing service, but the community doesn't expect the fees to be returned because it's impossible to identify the funds anyway. (Also Blockchain has offered a 0.5% bonus for those people who facilitated the laundering.)

The average price he sold at should be around $7.2, including the exchanging fees. At this price point the community is short $42,000. I'll see if it's possible to get this from Chen Jianhai, but quite unlikely. I doubt the effectiveness of Chinese police as well, because he's very likely to have "Guanxi" to deal with his financial activities (which I can't decide whether legal or not). In any case, he has been acting in a very naive way and I assume he still has freedom today because of his guanxi, not technical sophistication.

He's right! I plugged in community and it now makes perfect sense. I can't believe I have been so wrong on this issue. Will everybody forgive me? BlowBobs on the house.

~Bruno~ (ain't cackling!)

[zhoutong]

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.

If later found out that the recoverable stolen funds exceed $140K in total, then it will be my personal liability to deal with Bitcoinica directly. In any case, AurumXchange shouldn't be holding the funds forever. $40K is only a small part of my total liability (this becomes my "liability" to Bitcoinica once I recover full amounts from Chen Jianhai), so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

In the situation you are in I forbid you to retain anything at all as long there are liabilities to Bitcoinica customers. Your personal liabilities come second and I personally don't care.
In case you are behind all that (And I want to keep this option open) that move is just a smart way of circumventing AML-investigations. You also wouldnt be responsible to prove the legitimacy of these funds anymore. Comparing the total amount of returned vs. stolen funds that leaves still the possibility of you making a profit in this hack (hypothetical situation)
Also moving the risk of goverment seizure of your friends funds or lengthy unblocking procedure to Bitcoinica customers is just unfair. We as customers were not involved in money laundering YOUR FRIEND WAS so he has to take the risk!

If you are worried about getting your money back from Bitcoinica. You should write to Patrick, Amir and Donald immediately. They are blocking the refunding process, and not anyone else.

The fund transfers are personal dealings with Patrick Murck, who represents multiple major creditors in Bitcoinica. I have never received any official communication from Bitcoinica since the hack. The 15,000 BTC returned is being held in escrow and it's not yet Bitcoinica's or Bitcoinica customers' money. The point of transferring the funds to a trusted third party is to provide safe and legal withholding of stolen properties and facilitate refunding process in the future.

AurumXchange blocked my funds only because of the suspicion of me being involved in the hack. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, the money either belongs to me, or Bitcoinica. If it belongs to Bitcoinica it should be transferred to Patrick Murck, and if it belongs to me it should be transferred to me. However here I make a public authorization that AurumXchange can transfer to Patrick Murck if it belongs to me. This means that AurumXchange doesn't have to continue holding the funds because of their inability to determine the rightful owner of the funds.

My personal interest is that AurumXchange should not be holding the funds for more than 5 days even if they refuse the exchange service. I stand on the side of Bitcoinica customers so obviously I will (and I have demonstrated my good faith to) settle efficiently with Bitcoinica customers.

No matter how you think, this issue has not yet reached a legal level of resolution. Bitcoinica still owes you 100% of your claimed amount and I personally (or even Chen Jianhai) owe everyone 0% like always. Only when Bitcoinica officially recognize and identify their stolen properties, the liability status will change.

The best way to get your money as soon as possible is to contact Bitcoinica immediately and ask them to take actions. Money is not a problem here because I will definitely transfer whatever I can recover.

[zhoutong]

I think all parties involved (except for Bitcoinica) have already posted all the information that should be made publicly available (and even some information that shouldn't).

If you need me to clarify any statement or evidence, please contact me directly at bitcoin@zhoutong.com. I will not post anything on this forum if I feel unnecessary or uncomfortable. Also I can concentrate on getting the money to refund Bitcoinica customers with minimal delays.

From this point you should not expect any explanation from me on this forum. However you are free to make my email replies public if you wish (please state this in your email). Any non-response should be treated as "no comment".

Also any official/legal correspondence can be mailed to:

po.box.zhoutong.com
PO Box 465
Carlton South VIC 3053
Australia

(Yes, please address it with "po.box.zhoutong.com" instead of my name.)

[sarpar]

AurumXchange posted that there are AML-investigations going on, so just sending these funds into the trust wont be so easy. Therfore you are unfair by retaining 40.000 from Chen and avoid further investigation of your personal actions.

Suggestion:

1. send all of Chens funds to the Trust
2. support the aurumXchange investigations including AML investigations
3. If you can prove they are legally your fund you get them returned
4. If you cant prove that they will get into the Bitcoinica Trust Fund
5. If the Trust fund exceeds the amount stolen in the hack you get it returned anyhow

Thats how it works and in no other fishy way. Your friend has to wait - but if he can trust your words shouldnt be afraid of anything

[sarpar]

@AurumXchange : Did Zhou so far provide evidence that these 40.000 "for a friend" are legitimate? Is he cooperative in that point?

[Bitcoin Oz]

You are really going to send your friend stolen funds ? huh

[blueberry]

AurumXchange blocked my funds only because of the suspicion of me being involved in the hack. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, the money either belongs to me, or Bitcoinica. If it belongs to Bitcoinica it should be transferred to Patrick Murck, and if it belongs to me it should be transferred to me. However here I make a public authorization that AurumXchange can transfer to Patrick Murck if it belongs to me. This means that AurumXchange doesn't have to continue holding the funds because of their inability to determine the rightful owner of the funds.

My personal interest is that AurumXchange should not be holding the funds for more than 5 days even if they refuse the exchange service. I stand on the side of Bitcoinica customers so obviously I will (and I have demonstrated my good faith to) settle efficiently with Bitcoinica customers.

AurumXchange blocked your funds because of suspicion of you being involved in the hack AND suspicion of money laundering. Because of this AurumXchange is obliged to report this to police and hold the funds pending an AML investigation. AurumXchange cannot simply release the funds until the AML investigation is completed and the source of funds are identified as legitimate. I do not know how long the process would take to complete, but I'd imagine it could take weeks.

[sarpar]

@AurumXchange : Did Zhou so far provide evidence that these 40.000 "for a friend" are legitimate? Is he cooperative in that point?

I can imagine they will not say anything in public during what is now in progress behind the scenes.

This could also be the reason why ZT is suddenly so cooperative: FEAR

Y/N is enough for me - it shows whether Zhou is somehow right to retain 40.000 or not and just tries to save his ass by bringing his tuition fee for next year into a save harbour.

[aq]

ZT being the hacker or not, he is still the only one that acts sort of professional here.
Have a look at the consultancy:
Patrik/Intersago is in Vegas gambling with pirate
Amir/Genjix doesn't seem to care too much lately
Donald, one can only hope that he stopped delaying the payouts
So I guess that Roger is on the right track, ZT will be the fast track for getting back the funds

[repentance]

AurumXchange posted that there are AML-investigations going on, so just sending these funds into the trust wont be so easy. Therfore you are unfair by retaining 40.000 from Chen and avoid further investigation of your personal actions.

Suggestion:

1. send all of Chens funds to the Trust
2. support the aurumXchange investigations including AML investigations
3. If you can prove they are legally your fund you get them returned
4. If you cant prove that they will get into the Bitcoinica Trust Fund
5. If the Trust fund exceeds the amount stolen in the hack you get it returned anyhow

Thats how it works and in no other fishy way. Your friend has to wait - but if he can trust your words shouldnt be afraid of anything

Users might be able to pressure Bitcoinica into accepting this arrangement or pressure other users into not taking legal action, but they have no power whatsoever to stop an AML investigation.  That will continue to its natural conclusion whether or not the funds are recovered because, although related, the theft and the money laundering are separate crimes.  

A money laundering investigation does not require a police report by the victims of the theft.  A money laundering investigation won't just look at this one suspicious transaction, either.  It will look for other suspicious transactions involving the same people and originating and destination accounts - the LR records may reveal further information which neither MtGox nor AurumXchange possess and which links to other people and accounts.

While passing the returned funds through a lawyer's trust account will help obscure their true origin, it's not going to help conceal the AurumXchange and Liberty Reserve transaction trails.

[Gareth Nelson]

Even though as a community we can determine Chen Jianhai to be the hacker,

No we cannot. You have provided no evidence of this person's existence at all, let alone their actions/implication in this theft. I invite you to do so now.

he hasn't been proven guilty legally yet. That will only happen when he faces a criminal charge.

He hasn't been proven to exist or guilty in any way either. You have invented this person to deflect blame from yourself. Again, I invite you to prove me wrong.

So intuitively I feel that the more the community criticizes me, the more I deserve to actually take possession of the funds and run away (because they penalized me like I did steal the funds, and I didn't).

This is a pathetic attempt of blackmail and to silence your critics without justification, with the retained promise of refund.

I believe so. He handled this matter very professionally and I'm going to continue recovering the fiat money from the hackers.

Well what a wonderful white knight you are. Please, tell me how you, a 14/15/16/17 year old:
1. Were able to gain audience with a prolific and dangerous criminal.
2. Prove his guilt and gain a confession.
3. Strip him of his latest theft.
4. Gain permission to publish his name and incriminate him publicly.
5. Still be able to walk.

I'm just going to comment here to say "Yes, this really is our attorney at BitInstant, and he is a trustworthy guy".... any creditors should feel free to call up his firm at Engage Legal if they have any concerns.

Please provide contact details for this firm and the specific people involved. Also please tell us how much of the recovered funds will be used to pay for whatever legal services have been contracted.


BB.

edit: Patrick's home address was mistakenly posted here, removed by his request - I ask that anyone who quoted my post please likewise remove it as the phone number etc are suitable means of contact

[BitBuster]

No. I would simply retain $40K from those recovered from Chen Jianhai, and convert that to Singapore Dollar and send back to my friend.

So you will handle stolen goods and then launder it to a "friend" who is happy to be incriminated?

so there's no reason to not trust and co-operate with me when I can deliver my promise of the $100K and 20,000 BTC.

You appear to be a pathological liar, are heavily implicated and have returned very little. There is no reason to trust or co-operate with you.

Unfortunately, my friend (the source of legitimate LR funds) does not wish to be involved in this disaster because he is supposed to be irrelevant. He's fine with providing information to the authorities, but definitely not to the Bitcoin community after he has read this thread.

Can any legal entity confirm that this person does exist and that they are co-operating with investigations?

My only priority right now is to refund Bitcoinica customers, which should have finished 2 months ago.

This is only now a priority because you have been found out.

Doing anything else will not help this process.

No, doing anything else will not help you. You expect to just part-pay back some funds under the guise of a biblically inconsistent and suspicious story, without being tried and imprisoned for your theft.

The hacker didn't steal from me. Why should I file a police report?

Indeed, why are you so involved in this whole matter? You either stole the funds yourself or are heavily responsible for the theft. That is why you don't contact the authorities.

I'm sure Bitcoinica itself has helped the community to grow (by providing a way to hedge and facilitate trading through the interest system), otherwise I wouldn't have been involved in the first place.

I'm sure that Bitcoinica itself helped your personal wealth grow and this is why you started it in the first place.

The point of transferring the funds to a trusted third party is to provide safe and legal withholding of stolen properties and facilitate refunding process in the future.

So you say that Engage Legal have deliberately and knowingly received stolen funds from you? That incriminates both of you for handling and laundering stolen goods without any (stated) legal authority or court order.

Bitcoinica still owes you 100% of your claimed amount and I personally (or even Chen Jianhai) owe everyone 0% like always. Only when Bitcoinica officially recognize and identify their stolen properties, the liability status will change.

How convenient. True, the identity of the theif has not been legally proven, but this does not mean that you will not be. Again, if you have no liability (which is laughable, considering your deep implication in this), why are you so involved in the clear-up?

If there is any investigation I would respond that the originally legitimate funds of $40k (which I can show proof to police) were transferred to Bitcoinica instead.

And the Police would not care one bit. Stolen goods are stolen goods.

Fiat money is not Bitcoin. Your one dollar and my one dollar are identical.

Wrong.

If you need me to clarify any statement or evidence, please contact me directly at bitcoin@zhoutong.com. I will not post anything on this forum if I feel unnecessary or uncomfortable.

From this point you should not expect any explanation from me on this forum.

Predictably, you are now trying to end the dialogue because you STILL REFUSE TO ANSWER THE MANY LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT TO YOU, because they relate to your lies catching up with themselves. Running away won't help you, until you're in the prison showers, of course.

I give you one last chance to answer the many questions I and others have directly put to you.

   Patrick Murck
   7541 32nd Ave NW
   Seattle, Washington 98117
   United States

Thanks, could you point me to any additional email/website addresses and telephone numbers?


BB.

[Gareth Nelson]

Patrick's contact details:

website: engagelegal.com
email: patrick@engagelegal.com
tel: US 703.608.8864

[Clipse]

I believe if this was a game, we would all be at about 90.1% of completion based on the scurry of posts coming from Zhou Tong.

The end is nigh, the end is nigh.