Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[Anenome5]

I was recently talking with someone who'd attended the Bitcoin conference 2013 and mentioned something I found interesting, and something that I've never heard or seen anyone else talk about, about achieving further efficiency improvements by moving to DC away from AC.

Apparently there are in existence now datacenters that offer straight-up DC, and if you had hardware setup to accept this--what sort of setup changes this would imply I have little idea--you could increase efficiency significantly by ditching AC-conversion losses.

I assume that such a setup would be quite attractive where one is building bespoke arrays of machines for a specific purpose, where thus power draw becomes a significant long term factor.

I think the profitability envelope may be too short for bitcoin mining machines to worry about that for now, but I could imagine someone like Asicminer going that route.

Good idea but the infrastructure for a DC plant inside a data center is a HUGE cost. I guess if you can find one that will host your stuff that is fine. At work we have about 20 node locations that are on DC systems. The walls of batteries are insane.

There is one near me, actually. Sounds like you know something about it. Would it be possible to actually run a miner like the Jupiter on DC? How does that work. Does it replace the PSU? Pin directly into the PCB or what. Or is it something a device needs to be planned for from the start.

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[Ytterbium]

i dont think the psu really matters honestly. dont waste money on anything crazy. just get a decent well priced unit and you will be fine, just wait for KNC to tell us the specs first.

It's an $8k device. And not only that, a high efficiency PSU will probably pay for itself in electricity in less then a month.

Really, do you have a particular brand/series in mind. I was reading about certain platinum-efficiency rated PSUs lately, curious what you guys would put your eye on.

I don't know if the brand matters that much. Probably not that big of a difference between gold/platinum ratings either.

Also, there probably isn't going to be any harm in waiting for their actual recommendations.

____

And what if when they test the chips it turns out to be well over estimates?

Well, first of all if it's really over 1kW, they should really use a dual PSU design (one PSU for two of the four chips)

Second of all I don't know why so many think the fact that BFL fucked up means everyone else will fuck up too. Bitcoin was around $6 when these guys started and around $100 when KnC got started. That means the total value of all mined coins is a lot higher, which means a much larger mining industry overall.

That larger industry is going to attract people who know what they're doing as opposed to amateurs who have never designed a chip before.

Bitsyncom has obviously had customer service issues, however most people who bought batch 1 and 2 got their units. And unlike BFL they not only matched specs the performance is about 33% faster (80 Gh/s vs. an advertised 60). Their systems work fine with normal PSUs so they were likely within their power estimates.

Laughing all the way to the bank with batch 1 and 2 buyer's  bitcoins who still don't have units?

Most did get their units.  Avalon customers are certainly a lot happer then BFL customers, that's for sure.

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical, maybe there are issues involved with bitcoin chips that aren't involved with other types of ICs.  However, lots of other people have been able to produce chips without anywhere near the problems that BFL has had.

[Xian01]

I just had to troll the thread a la BFL to raise sales and guarantee more pre-orders!

 I'm sorry. I seem to be missing something. Not sure what you are referring to. 

[Ytterbium]

There is one near me, actually. Sounds like you know something about it. Would it be possible to actually run a miner like the Jupiter on DC? How does that work. Does it replace the PSU? Pin directly into the PCB or what.

It uses a standard ATX power supply, so if you can get one that runs off of DC you should be fine. I think they're typically way more expensive.  Here's a 300W DC-DC power supply. It's $140, though.  And here's a 250 watt.  That one can take input anywhere from 6 to 30v.

You might be able to run them in parallel in order to boost the output to 1000W. Those might be useful if you were going to go with a solar powered system - you wouldn't need an inverter to convert the power to AC before using the PSU to convert it back to DC.

If you could get an exact 12VDC input power then the power supply would be really simple (Assuming KnC devices mostly use the 12v input anyway)

[Kuroth]

I just had to troll the thread a la BFL to raise sales and guarantee more pre-orders!

 I'm sorry. I seem to be missing something. Not sure what you are referring to. 

Shhhhhhhhhh   Dont feed the Troll dude..  You might scare him away..   

[minternj]

I was recently talking with someone who'd attended the Bitcoin conference 2013 and mentioned something I found interesting, and something that I've never heard or seen anyone else talk about, about achieving further efficiency improvements by moving to DC away from AC.

Apparently there are in existence now datacenters that offer straight-up DC, and if you had hardware setup to accept this--what sort of setup changes this would imply I have little idea--you could increase efficiency significantly by ditching AC-conversion losses.

I assume that such a setup would be quite attractive where one is building bespoke arrays of machines for a specific purpose, where thus power draw becomes a significant long term factor.

I think the profitability envelope may be too short for bitcoin mining machines to worry about that for now, but I could imagine someone like Asicminer going that route.

Good idea but the infrastructure for a DC plant inside a data center is a HUGE cost. I guess if you can find one that will host your stuff that is fine. At work we have about 20 node locations that are on DC systems. The walls of batteries are insane.

There is one near me, actually. Sounds like you know something about it. Would it be possible to actually run a miner like the Jupiter on DC? How does that work. Does it replace the PSU? Pin directly into the PCB or what. Or is it something a device needs to be planned for from the start.

Sure but you would probably have to pay the DC to wire it in. In our datacenters we are required to use union electricians to do all the wiring. You cant just connect to the main, you will need some sort of overcurrent protection for your rack and of course some sort of dc-dc power supply that will split out your 6pin connectors(edit - keep in mind most dc implementations in datacenters are 48v). it all depends on the datacenter you choose they will have their own requirements.

[arbitrage001]

Anyone know the expected deliver date if I pay today?


Thank you

[ASIC-K]

Anyone know the expected deliver date if I pay today?


Thank you

Www.kncminer.com

October.

[webjoe]

Anyone know the expected deliver date if I pay today?
Thank you

[erk]

Anyone know the expected deliver date if I pay today?
Thank you

We know already 5390.png has been posted numerous times in this thread!

[Bamdad]

This is what I get when I want to checkout   https://i.imgur.com/WGNCDUe.png

[Anenome5]

This is what I get when I want to checkout  

What browser are you using? Try Chrome dude.

[Nemo1024]

Or try manually changing your encoding. Looks like IE's botched attempt at guessing the encoding of the page, when that information is missing on the page itself.

[Bamdad]

This is what I get when I want to checkout   https://i.imgur.com/WGNCDUe.png

What browser are you using? Try Chrome dude.

Its chrome mate

[Bamdad]

Or try manually changing your encoding. Looks like IE's botched attempt at guessing the encoding of the page, when that information is missing on the page itself.

Its UTF-8

[HyperMega]

But of course, BFL did something so silly where they apparently failed to do optical proximity correction, and this is, apparently, why their power drain doubled.

Are you saying this as a fact? If so please link source.

No, that's why I qualified the statement with 'apparently,' obviously. However it would explain why their power targets are off by an order of magnitude. And it's one of the more charitable explanations other than outright incompetence.

I don't expect Orsoc to pull such a rookie move.

Bitfury also missed original power goals. You saying hes a rookie too?

They're not off by an order of magnitude. It's not quite in the same ballpark therefore, is it.

A: Rookie mistake.

B: Estimate proved optimistic.

Sorry, as somebody who already executed the one or the other 65nm/40nm/28nm tape-out including direct contact to foundries, I like to mention that BFL and its design enablement partner for layout generation/sign off (Chronicle Tech?) were for sure not responsible for the OPC.

OPC is a task of the mask preparation, which is normally done at the mask house related to the foundry before wafer manufacturing can start. The responsibility for this step has the foundry, which was Globalfoundries in case of BFL.

An order of magnitude? Do you mean 10x? When I remember right, BFL targeted below 1 J/GH and reached 3.2 J/GH.  Should be 3.2x.

Anyway, a missed OPC would result in a very bad yield, maybe even in no yield. The influence at power should not be that strong.

From my point of view, the reason for missing the power target, was the design methodology of the BFL ASIC. It's impossible to run detailed accurate power analysis (e.g. for calculation of a complete hash) during design phase for this kind of design sizes, if you do a full-custom design (hand layout). The reason for this is, that these kind of analysis have to be done at transistor level in case of a full-custom design. I doubt that there is a spice simulator, which can simulate a complete pipelined hash core. If there is one, such a power analysis would take weeks.

So I assume, that BFL did power analysis only for small parts of one hash core and than they tried to scale it up (if they did at all). With respect to power consumption they were a kind of blind till late in the implementation phase. I also think that they realized that they have a problem shortly before tape-out. That was the reason why they change the package from a simple wire-bond QFN to a flip-chip BGA late in 2012 to be able to handle the much higher power consumption.

[Gyrsur]

will be there a trade in advantage for the 2nd generation of your products starting to ship in March 2014?

[Bitcoinorama]

will be there a trade in advantage for the 2nd generation of your products starting to ship in March 2014?

I asked this ages back, because of the European WEEE directive, and was told no trade-ins. That's not to say they may or may not give a discount, or preferential treatment to those that have supported them, but they won't handle disposal of hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive

[Gyrsur]

will be there a trade in advantage for the 2nd generation of your products starting to ship in March 2014?

I asked this ages back, because of the European WEEE directive, and was told no trade-ins. That's not to say they may or may not give a discount, or preferential treatment to those that have supported them, but they won't handle disposal of hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive

ok, thanks! a discount would be fair to get, I hope. there is also the question how to proceed if competitors flood the market with devices in Dec13, Jan14 and Feb14. the plan is to sell then devices as competitively priced they can. does this mean it is possible to get a device "at half the price" then?

[titomane]

FYI, just a bit of info on ev'day resident expert(shill), Bitcoinorama who was throwing his weight around.

Figured seeing as the forum user kncminer registered on April 07, 2013, 08:18:32 PM and participated actively in this forum up to April 11, 2013, 07:18:58 AM.

Then on April 23, 2013, 11:36:38 AM Bitcoinorama registered his profile, just few minutes after a message left by kncminer on April 23, 2013, 11:14:27 AM, and proceeded to post actively in the topic Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com from April 26, 2013, 01:33:45 AM.

On June 26, 2013, 10:23:52 PM Bitcoinorama answered a question which just the owners of the kncminer.com Internet page should know the answer:

Interesting  I just noticed on my orders detail page it shows a kind of grayed out 34 right under my order Qty of 1 of a Jupiter...

Wonder what the 34 means?  (...)

SKU code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_keeping_unit

Doesn't inspire me with confidence...

Second hardware spec’s

   You are all correct we will publish stats on working prototypes with clear and unquestionable evidence (Video/ photograph/youtube/ newspaper reviews/personal checks) that we have working products. We will first publish this to the people who have registered on our site. They and only they (who have registered before publication date) will be given the ability to complete their preorders. Devices will then ship in the weeks after as they are made tested and sent.

Sam

Hi Guys

We would like to say that. Yes....we did tape-out of the ASIC some time ago. The exact details of the ASIC schedule, volumes, vendor etc. is kept internal since it's very sensitive information towards competitors. The product development tasks are on-track."

We are still on schedule to begin shipping in September.

Thanks
KnCMiner Team

This message is before than message of bitcoinorama

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=236402.msg2504404#msg2504404
& this
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226011.msg2390641#msg2390641

Honestly, I do not think Bitcoinorama are the person impartial forum. He is a little Fanboy of  KNC. But as I said in some earlier post that you can not accuse a scammer user here. You must do it in acusations scam.

Hold on, where the hell do you get off calling me a shill, or a scammer? On what evidence?? Stop feeding the troll.

I have never, ever given anything but common sense advice. I have absolutely always stated explicitly to do your own research, it is not my fault people are too damn lazy to read through the thread, specifically the earlier parts where upon the KnC story unfolded. The latter crap with people asking the same stuff again and again because they won't research elements for themselves can be skipped. I'd damn well start from scratch if I had no prior knowledge at this point.

Firstly any research I've shared is either publicly available from the web w.r.t. LinkedIN profiles, blogs, official Swedish company records etc., or from the openday I attended, where I was not alone, there were other members of the forum present. Yes I've continued to keep up with the custom forum child board subsequent as I have an interest in Bitcoin mining and the developments in the ASICrace. Other information I shared from emailing KnC, there was no insider knowledge or wizardry on my part, I just freakin' emailed them. Guess what happened when others emailed them, they got direct answers. Some shared, some didn't. I choose to share as the more solid info peeps share, the better decisions can be made. Don't trust the info, follow it up yourself, guess what's happened everytime someone's questioned what I've had to post and followed it up, it checked out, why? Because there is nothing underhand. Seriously anyone can call anyone a shill, but the reason anyone does without any evidence is because it's easy, it fit's with their naive assumptions and their too damned lazy to do any groundwork themselves. Couple that with the fact people are willing to throw large sums cash at 'investments' they don't do the groundwork on is moronic. Ffs anyone can go visit KnC at anytime, they have an open door policy, just give them a heads up prior.

Secondly I have always, always insisted you don't 'bet' more than you can afford to loose. Why? And why 'bet', because make no mistake this is a race with the winners hopefully seeing a better return. Now the landscape is changing with more entrants it may well be wiser to hold out until the dust has settled, you'll be able to make a more solid decision, sure, but you won't be at the starting blocks, but whatever that's your choice to make based on your risk comfort level. That's not mine, and it's certainly not mine if things don't work out the way you want them to. Be an adult and make your own decisions. I haven't coerced or deceived anyone into anything.

Far from it I've insisted you pay by credit card and call your issuing bank and ensure they will cover your ass after the Paypal 45 day window shuts. Mine will. I rang Barclays and recorded the lady in the fraud department on loudspeaker to be super sure. If anything I was instrumental in ensuring KnC accepted card payments. Read the damn thread.

Calm down.

I did not say you are a scammer. Do not change my words. I said do not always accept KNC doubt. It is a reflection of a fanboy. I respect your position. Besides I said 2 times Augustus to not be accused of something without proof.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg2822084 # msg2822084