Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[kano]

Kano and cklovis... hopefully Jupiters #1 and #2 will be on your doorstep soon 

No, read between the lines
Their comment was "stuff you we aren't doing what we contacted you about at the start and told you we would do - we'll save a ... small amount of money not having to send out some hardware ... yay we got off that scott free"
I'm not surprised.
Maybe in my case they never liked the fact that their "In a few months" and "Summer" of their first post seemed rather shifty to me and I made comment about that ...

Anyway look on the bright side: you "may" all get your devices a few months earlier coz they didn't have to write a miner and got to use the code base of the best one ... though no idea what old version of it they will be using. I wonder if I'll have another "Where's the source code" thread

[amencon]

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.

Then you're just not looking very hard.

Refunds would cause customers to experience exchange losses. Someone who paid 39 Bitcoins for a Saturn two months ago would at most get 32 Bitcoins back, a loss of over $800.

But more importantly, if something gains value and then loses that value, you cannot argue that nobody was harmed. There can be people who bought in the middle, at the inflated price, who now are stuck with much less than they paid. Pro-orders have gained value. Someone who bought the right to a Saturn ordered two months ago for 45 Bitcoins today (which is reasonable) would be out the value of the expected profits that he had paid for, getting 32 Bitcoins back for the 45 Bitcoins he spent.

Loss of future expected value *is* a real present loss because expected values can be sold, traded, borrowed against, and so on. Of course part of the nature of future expected values is that they're accompanied by risk -- lots of risk. Everyone who has a pre-order has future expected value at risk.

C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair.

Your response seems out of place based on what Joel said.  As far as I can tell he was only responding to the statement that there is no risk.  He's correct that there is risk, however I don't see any judgments about those risks in his post at all.  I don't think his message had anything to do with what he thinks you should or should not do.  Only that risk exists.  You can leave the "big boy pants" posts to others I think.

[kano]

Kano and cklovis... hopefully Jupiters #1 and #2 will be on your doorstep soon 

No, read between the lines
Their comment was "stuff you we aren't doing what we contacted you about at the start and told you we would do - we'll save a ... small amount of money not having to send out some hardware ... yay we got off that scott free"
I'm not surprised.
Maybe in my case they never liked the fact that their "In a few months" and "Summer" of their first post seemed rather shifty to me and I made comment about that ...

Anyway look on the bright side: you "may" all get your devices a few months earlier coz they didn't have to write a miner and got to use the code base of the best one ... though no idea what old version of it they will be using. I wonder if I'll have another "Where's the source code" thread

Strange, wonder if they would have seen that 30% increase if they had let you do it?

I guess that means the hash rate on them with be 30% better?

If they are referring to the code itself, well ckolivas made major head roads into CPU usage ... maybe they just copied ... some ... of his >30% changes

[Ytterbium]

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.

Then you're just not looking very hard.

Refunds would cause customers to experience exchange losses. Someone who paid 39 Bitcoins for a Saturn two months ago would at most get 32 Bitcoins back, a loss of over $800.

But more importantly, if something gains value and then loses that value, you cannot argue that nobody was harmed. There can be people who bought in the middle, at the inflated price, who now are stuck with much less than they paid. Pro-orders have gained value. Someone who bought the right to a Saturn ordered two months ago for 45 Bitcoins today (which is reasonable) would be out the value of the expected profits that he had paid for, getting 32 Bitcoins back for the 45 Bitcoins he spent.

Loss of future expected value *is* a real present loss because expected values can be sold, traded, borrowed against, and so on. Of course part of the nature of future expected values is that they're accompanied by risk -- lots of risk. Everyone who has a pre-order has future expected value at risk.

C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair.

Your response seems out of place based on what Joel said.  As far as I can tell he was only responding to the statement that there is no risk.  He's correct that there is risk, however I don't see any judgments about those risks in his post at all.  I don't think his message had anything to do with what he thinks you should or should not do.  Only that risk exists.  You can leave the "big boy pants" posts to others I think.

Well that is correct in that there are exchange rate risks.  That's obviously something that BFL customers got completely screwed over by.

However, the price of bitcoin has been all over the place since KnC started taking orders.  You could have ordered when btc was $120 and asked for a refund when btc was $90.

There's no risk if you purchase with USD, I should say.

Otherwise there's currency risk just buying the machine in a non-pre-order fashion, you could order and see the price of bitcoin shoot up 20% while you're waiting for delivery.

[xstr8guy]

Kano and cklovis... hopefully Jupiters #1 and #2 will be on your doorstep soon 

No, read between the lines
Their comment was "stuff you we aren't doing what we contacted you about at the start and told you we would do - we'll save a ... small amount of money not having to send out some hardware ... yay we got off that scott free"
I'm not surprised.
Maybe in my case they never liked the fact that their "In a few months" and "Summer" of their first post seemed rather shifty to me and I made comment about that ...

Anyway look on the bright side: you "may" all get your devices a few months earlier coz they didn't have to write a miner and got to use the code base of the best one ... though no idea what old version of it they will be using. I wonder if I'll have another "Where's the source code" thread

I was being facetious.  You fellas should be getting a free Jupiter for all of your hard work!

[creativex]

There's no risk if you purchase with USD, I should say.

Of course there's risk. There's the lost opportunity cost associated with buying mining equipment that will return less BTC than you'd have if you'd simply exchanged the fiat for BTC directly.

Otherwise there's currency risk just buying the machine in a non-pre-order fashion, you could order and see the price of bitcoin shoot up 20% while you're waiting for delivery.

The same is true of a pre-order and the more time that elapses between placing the order and finally having it delivered the more likely this scenario is to come to pass.

[vulgartrendkill]

Just seen the videos on youtube of one of the machines hashing. Looks good.  anyone known if its a usb plug n play or resp pi etc?

[amencon]

There's actually zero risk so long as they stick by their refund policy, and I'm sure at this point they've made way more then enough money to refund every single person who orders for November delivery.  So I don't see much risk.

Then you're just not looking very hard.

Refunds would cause customers to experience exchange losses. Someone who paid 39 Bitcoins for a Saturn two months ago would at most get 32 Bitcoins back, a loss of over $800.

But more importantly, if something gains value and then loses that value, you cannot argue that nobody was harmed. There can be people who bought in the middle, at the inflated price, who now are stuck with much less than they paid. Pro-orders have gained value. Someone who bought the right to a Saturn ordered two months ago for 45 Bitcoins today (which is reasonable) would be out the value of the expected profits that he had paid for, getting 32 Bitcoins back for the 45 Bitcoins he spent.

Loss of future expected value *is* a real present loss because expected values can be sold, traded, borrowed against, and so on. Of course part of the nature of future expected values is that they're accompanied by risk -- lots of risk. Everyone who has a pre-order has future expected value at risk.

C'mon man currencies fluctuate, you know that, and the fact Bitcoin is an emerging currency means that inherent risk is omnipresent until mainstream acceptance and regularatory outlines are more concrete. People need to acknowledge that and factor that into their own risk tolerance, wear big boy pants and assume responsibility for their own actions, no one is forcing them to spend coins, it' not the company's fault, or problem, it's' their own decision to make and standby. If BTC dropped, they sure as hell wouldn't want the coins back, it's a two way street and peeps need to grow a pair.

Your response seems out of place based on what Joel said.  As far as I can tell he was only responding to the statement that there is no risk.  He's correct that there is risk, however I don't see any judgments about those risks in his post at all.  I don't think his message had anything to do with what he thinks you should or should not do.  Only that risk exists.  You can leave the "big boy pants" posts to others I think.

Well that is correct in that there are exchange rate risks.  That's obviously something that BFL customers got completely screwed over by.

However, the price of bitcoin has been all over the place since KnC started taking orders.  You could have ordered when btc was $120 and asked for a refund when btc was $90.

There's no risk if you purchase with USD, I should say.

Otherwise there's currency risk just buying the machine in a non-pre-order fashion, you could order and see the price of bitcoin shoot up 20% while you're waiting for delivery.

Right but the fact that the price has gone up and down does nothing to refute the statement that risk does exist which was the only message being delivered.  I'm not saying the risk isn't worth it or that it can't work out well for the investor.  In a non-pre-order fashion order the risk still exists but your exposure to the risk is diminished greatly.  Also holding BTC vs using it to buy a miner is roughly equivalent to the decision between buying BTC or using the USD to buy a miner, the risk still exists.

[FUKT]

Just seen the videos on youtube of one of the machines hashing. Looks good.  anyone known if its a usb plug n play or resp pi etc?

What machines hashing?

[vulgartrendkill]

Just seen the videos on youtube of one of the machines hashing. Looks good.  anyone known if its a usb plug n play or resp pi etc?

What machines hashing?

It was a video from the open day of knc. bitcoinorama put it up i believe.

[plasmoske]

What machines hashing?

Probably the prototype FPGA...

Oh and by the way, it's a standalone (linux) not usb plug and play.

[the-skeptic]

I just shot KNC an email, but I figure I might as well pose this here as well. KNC is offering to pre-configure our miners, right? I suspect that each miner will go through a burn-in test of some sort, like most computers do (or at least used too). Is KNC going to do the burn-in using the pool-of-choice, that you've entered on their website, or are they going to make a few BTC by using their own internal pool and pay directly to the wallet they've also asked for on the config page?

I would prefer they use my chosen pool, not their internal pool. But that's just me.

[vulgartrendkill]

What machines hashing?

Probably the prototype FPGA...

Oh and by the way, it's a standalone (linux) not usb plug and play.

Ok thanks,  so does that mean it has a built in linux distro?

[Rampion]

Mark my words: given the current circumstances, best case scenario is first miners ship at the very end of September (last week for sure), and the vast majority of those who hoped to receive their hardware in September will receive it in October. No working ASIC prototype on September 6th.

Best case.

[de_ixie]

I just shot KNC an email, but I figure I might as well pose this here as well. KNC is offering to pre-configure our miners, right? I suspect that each miner will go through a burn-in test of some sort, like most computers do (or at least used too). Is KNC going to do the burn-in using the pool-of-choice, that you've entered on their website, or are they going to make a few BTC by using their own internal pool and pay directly to the wallet they've also asked for on the config page?

I would prefer they use my chosen pool, not their internal pool. But that's just me.

they'll use your pre-settings for burn in

[Satobit]

Mark my words: given the current circumstances, best case scenario is first miners ship at the very end of September (last week for sure), and the vast majority of those who hoped to receive their hardware in September will receive it in October. No working ASIC prototype on September 6th.

Best case.

bullshit!

[FUKT]

I just shot KNC an email, but I figure I might as well pose this here as well. KNC is offering to pre-configure our miners, right? I suspect that each miner will go through a burn-in test of some sort, like most computers do (or at least used too). Is KNC going to do the burn-in using the pool-of-choice, that you've entered on their website, or are they going to make a few BTC by using their own internal pool and pay directly to the wallet they've also asked for on the config page?

I would prefer they use my chosen pool, not their internal pool. But that's just me.

they'll use your pre-settings for burn in

That would be interesting if they did, you could monitor your pool worker to see any shares been mined. This would indicate they are close to shipping.

[dhenson]

I just want the KNC pool site to come online so I can get signed up and pre-configure my settings.

[Meizirkki]

Mark my words: given the current circumstances, best case scenario is first miners ship at the very end of September (last week for sure), and the vast majority of those who hoped to receive their hardware in September will receive it in October. No working ASIC prototype on September 6th.

Best case.

It's wrong to assume they keep us up to date with everything.

[demonmaestro]

It would be nice if they did! I would think that it would drive up pre-orders!