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Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
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Author Topic: [40+ PH] SlushPool (slushpool.com); World's First Mining Pool  (Read 3855480 times)
rsbriggs
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May 01, 2013, 04:13:43 AM
 #7321

Well, OK.  

Regrettably, it seems that I need to move over to another pool.
  
I can't see much point in cranking away here with my current tiny 184 Mh/s for hours and hours without reward.  From the looks of things after mining on EclipseMC for a few hours, I can still pull down about .016 BTC per day there.

I do have a box coming with a pair of HD7990's which should be here early next week.  That ought to fix up my hash rate at least a little - maybe I'll try back here after I get it going...

Це́рковь бли́зко, да идти́ скли́зко, каба́к далеко́, да идти́ легко́.
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rsbriggs
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May 01, 2013, 04:18:59 AM
 #7322

No - there is definitely something wrong here.  I'm not being paid for any blocks anymore

17774   2013-04-30 20:25:35   2:03:23   14233698   132   0.00000000
17775   2013-04-30 23:59:52   3:34:17   24772020   145   0.00000000
17776   2013-05-01 02:25:35   2:25:43   16453036    13   0.00000000

I have moved over to another pool, and I'm not having problems there with zero returns per block, even if my share counts are low.

The problem here is that these are fairly long blocks, and the scoring system works in such a way that shares done towards the end count more than at the beginning, but the flip to this is that with slow share submission at the end it could look like you were not sending anything and your score would be decaying faster than you were adding shares.  Even if this was done with the simple calc of (your shares / total shares) * 25 * 0.98, you only be looking at 0.0002.  And and average submission rate of a bit more than 1 share per minute.  While slush's pool is pretty nice for most people, I don't think it is a great solution for such a low hash rate.  You're just getting unlucky with score decay and too steep of a curve at the end.

But this didn't start happening until the change in difficulty.  I haven't encountered this problem here before now, even if I just got a few dozen shares in on a two hour block I'd end up with at least something around 1/2 the PPS rate for that number of shares.  Then today, 4 blocks in a row, no payout...

Це́рковь бли́зко, да идти́ скли́зко, каба́к далеко́, да идти́ легко́.
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May 01, 2013, 06:15:02 AM
 #7323

No - there is definitely something wrong here.  I'm not being paid for any blocks anymore

17774   2013-04-30 20:25:35   2:03:23   14233698   132   0.00000000
17775   2013-04-30 23:59:52   3:34:17   24772020   145   0.00000000
17776   2013-05-01 02:25:35   2:25:43   16453036    13   0.00000000

I have moved over to another pool, and I'm not having problems there with zero returns per block, even if my share counts are low.

41  DGM  0 PPS   0.00108057
136 DGM 0 PPS   0.00110942
464 DGM 0 PPS   0.00132832
6    DGM 0 PPS   0.00068256


I also discovered some very low payout on long blocks, and I moved over to other pool


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May 01, 2013, 06:26:10 AM
 #7324

I can't see much point in cranking away here with my current tiny 184 Mh/s for hours and hours without reward.  From the looks of things after mining on EclipseMC for a few hours, I can still pull down about .016 BTC per day there.

184 is fast enough for luck not to be such big factor... But then again if you are saying you have 184 there should be much more shares in in this time. There must be something wrong. But there are more possibility.

1. You stop mining
2. Internet went out for you
3. Counting shares on Slush side fail

EDIT: but there agen I also noticed that I'm getting paid less for long blocks. It was usuly other way around since pool hoppers take part of the earnings... So Slush might take a look at the system....
organofcorti
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May 01, 2013, 06:32:13 AM
 #7325

There's no point guessing how the score method works. You'll just get confused - the score method seems simple enough, but it really isn't.

I posted this a few pages back and not.you did a great job summarising, but I guess you missed it:


Probably shouldn't comment since I haven't had a chance to read those yet, but I did mention above about how I thought the system was outdated.
Judging by the hash rates in the top of those they aren't very recent.
If im wrong, please dont hang me! I'll apologise for my ignorance once I have had time to look at things properly.

4.2 and 4.3 are the important ones - 4.1 is just background. They are from last year, but the score method is the same now as it was then.

Very good read indeed. I wonder how many of the forum members will take the time to read & understand (!) it. I see a rather wide spectrum of skills and attitude and many reoccurring questions that makes me assume the majority will just skip anything longer than a few paragraphs. Anyway, congratulations, I really recognize the full worth of these quality articles.

Cheers,
   T


Yes I found those the other day and thought they were excellent as well.  (When is the next one coming out?)

I kept seeing blocks that had under-calculated (by a lot) and it was bugging me until I found those.

The TL;DR version is that in order to prevent pool hopping Slush's scoring mechanism rewards shares found later in the round more than shares found earlier in the round.  This mechanism as implemented also introduces variance in the pay out.  Sometimes you get more than expected for a block and sometimes you get less as compared to a purely proportional payout system.  To check, look at your highest and lowest rewards over time and you should find some lower and some higher than the value calculated by this formula: (Block Value * 0.98 * your shares) / total shares

If you are a full-time miner however, the long term effect of the variance will disappear and your long term reward will look almost identical to what it would if that formula above were actually being used.  The end result is that pool hopping from Slush's pool is only profitable to a very, very tiny degree and full time miners are not losing much reward to pool hoppers. 

Slush could lower that pool hopping profitability even more but it would raise the payout variance even more which would make some blocks look even worse.


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May 01, 2013, 07:21:28 AM
 #7326

OVH CEO confirms the security flaw by which slush's pool was compromised:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5632479

they even say it in plain text:
Quote
We have found 3 active ids which had a password reset done by brute-force. These three occurences were targeted attacks against a part of the "bitcoin" community that uses ovh

Really? Just 3 clients? And ALL of them bitcoin-related? Wow, what a coincidence!
And I'm pretty sure the hacker randomly guessed the emails and usernames of those very specific 3 users. Yup, no inside info necessary. At all.

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May 01, 2013, 07:31:16 AM
 #7327

Hi,

just filled in a NMC wallet address yesterday, but so far nothing happened there in my slush account. Are NMC still mined? Or did I do something wrong? Just typed a walled address from my coin exchange - or do I really need the NMC server tool running?
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May 01, 2013, 07:31:58 AM
 #7328

I can't see much point in cranking away here with my current tiny 184 Mh/s for hours and hours without reward.  From the looks of things after mining on EclipseMC for a few hours, I can still pull down about .016 BTC per day there.

184 is fast enough for luck not to be such big factor... But then again if you are saying you have 184 there should be much more shares in in this time. There must be something wrong. But there are more possibility.

1. You stop mining
2. Internet went out for you
3. Counting shares on Slush side fail

EDIT: but there agen I also noticed that I'm getting paid less for long blocks. It was usuly other way around since pool hoppers take part of the earnings... So Slush might take a look at the system....

Yes, it seems to be some problem at your side, because for the same blocks i have ~300 shares and 0.00032 reward on average with just 150MH/s

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KNK
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May 01, 2013, 07:34:05 AM
 #7329

Hi,

just filled in a NMC wallet address yesterday, but so far nothing happened there in my slush account. Are NMC still mined? Or did I do something wrong? Just typed a walled address from my coin exchange - or do I really need the NMC server tool running?

You'll find the answer by reading the last few pages

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May 01, 2013, 07:38:52 AM
 #7330

Oh, thanks.
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May 01, 2013, 07:46:30 AM
 #7331

No - there is definitely something wrong here.  I'm not being paid for any blocks anymore

17774   2013-04-30 20:25:35   2:03:23   14233698   132   0.00000000
17775   2013-04-30 23:59:52   3:34:17   24772020   145   0.00000000
17776   2013-05-01 02:25:35   2:25:43   16453036    13   0.00000000

I have moved over to another pool, and I'm not having problems there with zero returns per block, even if my share counts are low.

41  DGM  0 PPS   0.00108057
136 DGM 0 PPS   0.00110942
464 DGM 0 PPS   0.00132832
6    DGM 0 PPS   0.00068256

I also discovered some very low payout on long blocks, and I moved over to other pool

I'm also seeing on average between 5% and 8% lower payment than what it should be (and rarely a 1-2% more than that).

It appears that miners with high GH/s machines are at an advantage here as they always have the very latest shares (which are paid more) than average miners (with just a few hundred MH/s). The average low-MH/s miner probably sends a share every 5-10sec, so even in the ideal case he's always towards the losing end as shares decay exponentially. The only way to get a "fair share" is if YOU are the one that found the block, and then everyone else who sent shares before you is on the losing end.

The main issue is that there is no grace period - like let's say the last 5min where all shares are equal, and then older shares start to decay and be paid less.

I don't know if there is any point in proposing a change in the payout scheme, so here are my 2 cents just in case : (I'll put it in a more descriptive way and not necessarily as a formula)
- Shares in the last X minutes (5-10) are all equal and do not decay (get 100% share value)
- Shares older than that decay until they hit the lower-limit (let's say a share's value should never be less than 25%)
- Very old shares (let's say more than 30min or 1hr) still keep 25% of their value and get some (lower) payment. That way even if you had some connectivity issues or a power outage your effort doesn't go to a complete waste. And we don't have the situation with 0.000000000 being paid.

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May 01, 2013, 08:12:02 AM
 #7332

Hi,

just filled in a NMC wallet address yesterday, but so far nothing happened there in my slush account. Are NMC still mined? Or did I do something wrong? Just typed a walled address from my coin exchange - or do I really need the NMC server tool running?

You'll have to wait for it a while. A Namecoin block has to be mined first, and then at the next Bitcoin block mined by our pool you should see some NMC waiting for you.

14FfG7TC7yWP86xyRQXCtC1sBmici5avvi
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May 01, 2013, 09:41:30 AM
 #7333

I just checked the Slush stats, and I can't stop wondering why Slush with 8Ths is making dozens of times less nmc blocks than bitminter pool with its 5.8Ths: https://bitminter.com/blocks?commodity=NMCHuh

I think he explained that earlier... 

Quote
Stratum pool don't have support for Namecoin (yet), so around 30% of hashpower isn't mining for Namecoin. Still you should have higher namecoin income than on other pools, because quite a lot people didn't filled NMC address...

I'm considering to drop of NMC support, because this project is basically dead and current merged mining sources are incompatible with latest bitcoin development (no support for merged mining over getblocktemplate etc). There's no project development since merged mining has been introduced in last October...

Thanks for the info  Smiley. I couldn't find that information on the website. Profit wise its better to support nmc, as it gives ~8% extra profit, at no expense. So when pool OP says that he's not going to support something that gives profit, while its a known fact that most pools are barely making any profit to stay competitive, it doesn't make any sense. Anyway, I wish Slush low CDF to make enough btc for a good website UI =).

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May 01, 2013, 09:49:47 AM
 #7334

I just checked the Slush stats, and I can't stop wondering why Slush with 8Ths is making dozens of times less nmc blocks than bitminter pool with its 5.8Ths: https://bitminter.com/blocks?commodity=NMCHuh

I think he explained that earlier... 

Quote
Stratum pool don't have support for Namecoin (yet), so around 30% of hashpower isn't mining for Namecoin. Still you should have higher namecoin income than on other pools, because quite a lot people didn't filled NMC address...

I'm considering to drop of NMC support, because this project is basically dead and current merged mining sources are incompatible with latest bitcoin development (no support for merged mining over getblocktemplate etc). There's no project development since merged mining has been introduced in last October...

Thanks for the info  Smiley. I couldn't find that information on the website. Profit wise its better to support nmc, as it gives ~8% extra profit, at no expense. So when pool OP says that he's not going to support something that gives profit, while its a known fact that most pools are barely making any profit to stay competitive, it doesn't make any sense. Anyway, I wish Slush low CDF to make enough btc for a good website UI =).

As far as I know none of the pools have stratum support for NMC... And stratum gives you much less rejected shares so you get more without NMC... So this should be better then mining at getwork and getting NMC.
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May 01, 2013, 09:56:34 AM
 #7335

No - there is definitely something wrong here.  I'm not being paid for any blocks anymore

17774   2013-04-30 20:25:35   2:03:23   14233698   132   0.00000000
17775   2013-04-30 23:59:52   3:34:17   24772020   145   0.00000000
17776   2013-05-01 02:25:35   2:25:43   16453036    13   0.00000000

I have moved over to another pool, and I'm not having problems there with zero returns per block, even if my share counts are low.

41  DGM  0 PPS   0.00108057
136 DGM 0 PPS   0.00110942
464 DGM 0 PPS   0.00132832
6    DGM 0 PPS   0.00068256

I also discovered some very low payout on long blocks, and I moved over to other pool

I'm also seeing on average between 5% and 8% lower payment than what it should be (and rarely a 1-2% more than that).

It appears that miners with high GH/s machines are at an advantage here as they always have the very latest shares (which are paid more) than average miners (with just a few hundred MH/s). The average low-MH/s miner probably sends a share every 5-10sec, so even in the ideal case he's always towards the losing end as shares decay exponentially. The only way to get a "fair share" is if YOU are the one that found the block, and then everyone else who sent shares before you is on the losing end.

The main issue is that there is no grace period - like let's say the last 5min where all shares are equal, and then older shares start to decay and be paid less.

I don't know if there is any point in proposing a change in the payout scheme, so here are my 2 cents just in case : (I'll put it in a more descriptive way and not necessarily as a formula)
- Shares in the last X minutes (5-10) are all equal and do not decay (get 100% share value)
- Shares older than that decay until they hit the lower-limit (let's say a share's value should never be less than 25%)
- Very old shares (let's say more than 30min or 1hr) still keep 25% of their value and get some (lower) payment. That way even if you had some connectivity issues or a power outage your effort doesn't go to a complete waste. And we don't have the situation with 0.000000000 being paid.


I suggest you to check how DGM and other rewarding methods work. There are more sophisticated solutions than what you are suggesting. Just read up on the topic. A lot of useful links have been posted here recently, for example this one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39497.0

Cheers,
   T
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May 01, 2013, 11:46:49 AM
 #7336

As far as I know none of the pools have stratum support for NMC... And stratum gives you much less rejected shares so you get more without NMC... So this should be better then mining at getwork and getting NMC.
Both Bitminter and Bitparking pools offer NMC on stratum.

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May 01, 2013, 12:12:51 PM
 #7337

As far as I know none of the pools have stratum support for NMC... And stratum gives you much less rejected shares so you get more without NMC... So this should be better then mining at getwork and getting NMC.
Both Bitminter and Bitparking pools offer NMC on stratum.

Well if this is really the case then I don't get it why Slush didn't reimplement it... I know he believes it is dead but as long as someone is ready to pay for them I do not agree... And there are more coins that could be mined together... As far as I know the number is 8 but I can't remember names. There are p2p pools that are mining them... If we get just 10% extra that would be great...
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May 01, 2013, 01:14:04 PM
 #7338

As far as I know none of the pools have stratum support for NMC... And stratum gives you much less rejected shares so you get more without NMC... So this should be better then mining at getwork and getting NMC.
Both Bitminter and Bitparking pools offer NMC on stratum.

Well if this is really the case then I don't get it why Slush didn't reimplement it... I know he believes it is dead but as long as someone is ready to pay for them I do not agree... And there are more coins that could be mined together... As far as I know the number is 8 but I can't remember names. There are p2p pools that are mining them... If we get just 10% extra that would be great...
I don't get it either, but it has been mentioned in this thread several times now and even if it wasn't I'm sure slush is well aware of it. If he doesn't want / have the time to implement it, there's not much we can do. It's his pool after all.

A list of merged mineable coins is here: http://dustcoin.com/mining  Bitparking pool has them all.

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May 01, 2013, 02:13:47 PM
 #7339

Block 17788 isn't showing on my stats page, anyone else noticing this?

EDIT: being fixed as we speak...

K.
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May 01, 2013, 02:28:47 PM
 #7340

Block 17788 isn't showing on my stats page, anyone else noticing this?

K.
listed as processing on mine, just showed up within last two minutes or so

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