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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 160211 times)
DdmrDdmr
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June 26, 2018, 05:43:14 AM
Last edit: June 26, 2018, 07:34:46 AM by DdmrDdmr
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #4621

<...>
what kind of data do you need in particular? Some data is public and other has been collected through community effort to integrate it.You can get access to it if needed.
<...>
It is not unusual to see people complain that there is a lack of data here and the wonders they would do with it. The first step in that direction should be to perform a thorough search and see what data and analysis has already been made, by what means and based on what information. The will to complain on this issue and not search seems not to be a good starting point to someone willing to do data analysis.

What has been shown around here in terms of analysis and derived tools, are not a result of some privileged insider information, but of having a certain wit, and above all, will to find the data. The only exception to this are the official stats which are derived by the Forum and logically have tighter relation to the original database source. The forum itself will have it’s own inner ring on information, but a lot has been achieved from users on the forum with what is available or derivable.

To sum it up very simply:
- merit transactions are made public by the forum every Friday by means of a flat file (limited to last 120 days of txs).
- trust data is also published every Friday, although exploited less in analysis.
- anything else needed (user profile data, forum names, message names, etc.) needs to be scraped from the web, or wait for a Good Samaritan to publish it and work from there on.

I’ve deliberately omitted linking the official data files above mentioned, or detailing the file structure, as a minimum effort should be made by searching on the forum and understanding what is available, what is not, and how some additional data can be derived. Spoon feeding should not be necessary for people that are capable, just searching a bit should suffice as we often recriminarte the newbies for not using.

Valuable assets to this regard, whose threads should be looked into are, but not limited to: LoyceV, zentdex, Piggy, sncc, coinlocket$, Vod and perhaps myself.

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yakovs
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June 26, 2018, 05:50:24 AM
 #4622

Don't worry a very too much about merit guys , he will not break your life.

Never knew that merit was some guy.
fillippone
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June 26, 2018, 06:17:17 AM
 #4623

What if a newbie on the forum produces good and meaningful posts?
Maybe he's new on the forum and trying to contribute from start.
Can he get merit?
Asking for a friend of course.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4545628.msg40921522#msg40921522

Thanks!
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June 26, 2018, 08:13:49 AM
 #4624

What if a newbie on the forum produces good and meaningful posts?
Maybe he's new on the forum and trying to contribute from start.
Can he get merit?
Yes, someone else's rank has nothing to do with receiving merits (a quality post, is always a quality post [merit worthy]).

Yeah right (that's why you linked it to your own post)!

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June 26, 2018, 08:48:18 AM
 #4625

What if a newbie on the forum produces good and meaningful posts?
Maybe he's new on the forum and trying to contribute from start.
Can he get merit?
Yes, someone else's rank has nothing to do with receiving merits (a quality post, is always a quality post [merit worthy]).

Yeah right (that's why you linked it to your own post)!
You know, just to give you the opportunity to give me an opinion if this kind of post deserve merit.

Ronaldobaban17
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June 26, 2018, 10:05:34 AM
 #4626

I hope merit could spread out to those active and low rank in the forum.
athanz88
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June 26, 2018, 12:20:32 PM
 #4627

I hope merit could spread out to those active and low rank in the forum.

Only if they are a merit-worthy person, then it will.
JayJuanGee
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June 26, 2018, 12:41:45 PM
 #4628

I hope merit could spread out to those active and low rank in the forum.

Only if they are a merit-worthy person, then it will.

Exactamente, Athanz.... Under this current merit system by design, merit spreading throughout the forum, including to the lower ranks will be based upon perceptions of merit worthiness of the merit senders rather than some kind of random chance...   Let the chips fall will they will...     Wink Cheesy

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
Dukjila
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June 26, 2018, 12:53:58 PM
 #4629

When will the merits be canceled, which were simply distributed from the introduction?
I'm for what would be a fair approach to the rank. There are accounts that do not score any merit and rank "Sr. Member", write heresy and this should be fixed!! Sad
JayJuanGee
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June 26, 2018, 01:11:55 PM
 #4630

When will the merits be canceled, which were simply distributed from the introduction?
I'm for what would be a fair approach to the rank. There are accounts that do not score any merit and rank "Sr. Member", write heresy and this should be fixed!! Sad

Cancelling this merit system has about a snowball's chance in hell of happening, so if you are hoping for that kind of an outcome, you are likely barking up the wrong tree.

Modification or tweaking of the merit system might happen, but instead of wishing for modification and tweaking, it could be a better pursuit to just figure out ways to work within the new merit system, if you are trying to earn merits, then attempt to post good and even better.  If you don't care about earning merits and you just want to read the forum posts, then you are free to do that too. This merit system does not stop you from reading posts.

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
TheQuin
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June 26, 2018, 01:17:05 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #4631

When will the merits be canceled, which were simply distributed from the introduction?
I'm for what would be a fair approach to the rank. There are accounts that do not score any merit and rank "Sr. Member", write heresy and this should be fixed!! Sad

Cancelling this merit system has about a snowball's chance in hell of happening, so if you are hoping for that kind of an outcome, you are likely barking up the wrong tree.

I don't think that's what they meant.

They were asking when the initial distribution Merits would be cancelled. That isn't going to happen either as theymos has stated he would not make a change that would result in accounts getting de-ranked.
I understand the frustration of seeing so many high ranked accounts that were already in the hands of spammers when the system was introduced, but that isn't going to be the solution.

freebitcoin.TO WIN A  LAMBORGHINI!..

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Forward_Thinking
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June 26, 2018, 04:39:50 PM
 #4632


...


So...I'm not really skilled at all the inline responses thing on here, but I will figure it out because that is the most detailed passionate response I think I've ever received on here and so, it deserves a detailed response. Plus I'm interested in this topic.

The short response to the theme of your more finger pointing questions/comments about me personally, my ideas, maybe whatever you were doing with all that, like trying to dismiss my ideas? - my short response to that is I would suggest you read all of my posts on this topic if you really want to critique me and my ideas, which you seem interested in doing so here they are...

These are in chronical order and a handful are not really that valuable. But some are pretty detailed and specific.

The first on was on 2/14/2018
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30489106#msg30489106
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30489361#msg30489361
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30489498#msg30489498
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30490238#msg30490238
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30490314#msg30490314
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30641476#msg30641476
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30722292#msg30722292
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30722582#msg30722582
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg32368333#msg32368333
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg32368964#msg32368964
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg39184630#msg39184630
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg40901438#msg40901438

I would also like to say that just because I've been predicting the (since failure is too strong of a word for you) lack of great success in the Merit system deployment....just because I've been predicting that for months does not also mean "then likely you are neither attempting to look at the matter objectively..." Really? Or...maybe I know what I'm talking about.

And to the rest of your statement "...or to attempt to see how matters play out." Yes...I don't think experimenting with BitcoinTalk is a good idea to just let play out. That's how you destroy something like BitcoinTalk. So I would absolutely not recommend the wait and see approach. I think enough data is there today. I think enough was there day 30...see my first post.

You brought up data, asked me to support my assertions with data. Man, I would love to! Give me access to the data and I will give you analysis that shows what is wrong with this Merit system (regardless of if that supports my preconceived ideas)...again, see my earlier posts. I told whomever reads these, where to look, and even what this or that analysis result would indicate. I don't know what data they track on here or who has access, but there are a lot of smart Tech people involved here and I'm just assuming access to data for the people touching the servers is not a problem.

Again...I would be happy to run the analysis if anyone cared enough to let me have access to the type of data I would need. But believing that would happen is ridiculous.

I'm not sure what you have against people with professional industry training or years of experience who are trying to apply those skills/experience to helping the crypto world, but that's 100% what I am attempting to do with my many, many posts above.


Hi,

what kind of data do you need in particular? Some data is public and other has been collected through community effort to integrate it.You can get access to it if needed.

How would you go using that information to expose patterns, i mean which models or methodology would you use?

Well here is some data I would like: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.msg30722582#msg30722582 Is any of this public? If so, can you please let me know how to access it? Thanks.
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June 26, 2018, 04:49:57 PM
 #4633

Instead of looking at ranks, and merit awarding stats, I think it is more productive to look at merited posts. LoyceV very kindly created a merit history list of my activities, and you can read that here - http://talkmerit.com/projects/merit-history.html

Don't forget that the sMerits that I award are subjective, and reflect my opinions and attitudes, they are not an indication of board policies.

[
Offgrid campers allow you to enjoy life and preserve your health and wealth.
Forward_Thinking
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June 26, 2018, 05:01:06 PM
 #4634


I don't doubt that theymos is continuing to assess the extent to which the actual behavior is playing out as a failure or a success, and likely the assessment is going to come out somewhere in the middle rather than your seeming presumption that the system has been a failure and that some goals have not been reached.
A bunch of assumptions there. But let me ask you to assume something real quick…do you believe they set metric based goals that they have been assessing all along and seeing how things are going? Meaning, they said We expect X% of Y Account will do Z 20% more often after the deployment of Merit? That’s how I would have managed this.

Well, I would imagine that there is an attempted measurement of account farming and shit posting, so these kinds of measures might not be precise to verify whether the merit system implementation is causing movement in the preferred direction.  Furthermore, there could be issues with merit sources not spending their smerits or engaging in borderline abusive use of their source merits that might need to be measured to decide whether to change merit source incentives.   Some behaviors are going to be easier measured than others, and there could even be some considerations about changing the measurement tools based on kinds of behaviors that are detected.
 


I am guessing you are saying they may have set vague goals? I really don't see an answer to my question. Since you are setting yourself up as some sort of Merit system defense counsel, and you don't know what metric based goals they set, it seems they may not have set any. If that is the case, that's a botched job.

This is a really an important point as the likelihood of success or failure absolutely is impacted by goal setting. First, if they have no metric based goals, they will never be able to determine if they actually achieved their goals. Second, if they have no metric based goals, they will not know how to make course corrections (which are pretty much always needed because with people, things never go perfectly as planned).

When you launch some major intervention impacting thousands of people and don't have any metric based goals, you know what that is called? It is called guessing. If they are guessing, they are playing with fire.
JayJuanGee
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June 26, 2018, 07:58:44 PM
 #4635

Instead of looking at ranks, and merit awarding stats, I think it is more productive to look at merited posts. LoyceV very kindly created a merit history list of my activities, and you can read that here - http://talkmerit.com/projects/merit-history.html

Don't forget that the sMerits that I award are subjective, and reflect my opinions and attitudes, they are not an indication of board policies.


I personally believe that it would be helpful (and more transparent) if the full histories of member merit sending/receiving would be accessible, rather than merely the past 120 days.

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
JayJuanGee
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June 26, 2018, 08:16:31 PM
 #4636


I don't doubt that theymos is continuing to assess the extent to which the actual behavior is playing out as a failure or a success, and likely the assessment is going to come out somewhere in the middle rather than your seeming presumption that the system has been a failure and that some goals have not been reached.
A bunch of assumptions there. But let me ask you to assume something real quick…do you believe they set metric based goals that they have been assessing all along and seeing how things are going? Meaning, they said We expect X% of Y Account will do Z 20% more often after the deployment of Merit? That’s how I would have managed this.

Well, I would imagine that there is an attempted measurement of account farming and shit posting, so these kinds of measures might not be precise to verify whether the merit system implementation is causing movement in the preferred direction.  Furthermore, there could be issues with merit sources not spending their smerits or engaging in borderline abusive use of their source merits that might need to be measured to decide whether to change merit source incentives.   Some behaviors are going to be easier measured than others, and there could even be some considerations about changing the measurement tools based on kinds of behaviors that are detected.

I am guessing you are saying they may have set vague goals?

Your "guess" is just that.  You can read through posts from theymos that articulates some of the goals, and you can see discussions of goals, frequently goals are not articulated as mandates.. so there can be some subjective interpretation about meaning and there can be shifting of the goals.  Again, it is your job to describe and to show evidence about what you believe are the goals and or what they should be based on evidence and reasonable inferences.  You seem to have a tendency to try to shift some kind of burden onto me when you are the person who is criticizing deficiencies in the system and what you propose changes, such as abolishing such system.



I really don't see an answer to my question.

I have no duty to answer your question(s), and I gave you responses that are sufficiently responsive and not evasive.  I did my part.  It's on you, now, to do some work, rather than getting caught in the weeds of irrelevance regarding alleged (and seemingly concocted) deficiencies in my response(s).

Since you are setting yourself up as some sort of Merit system defense counsel,

NOT.. another thing in your imagination.  I am just saying that you are failing and refusing to prove your case.  I am not engaged in any active defense of the merit system as you seem to want to present the matter in such a way in order to shift the burden of presentation and evidence from me to you.  Why don't you get a grip and take responsibility for the substance of your own presentation rather than continuing in irrelevant distractions?  Are you able to or competent enough in such direction?

and you don't know what metric based goals they set,

I don't need to know, but even with my not knowing, I seem to know more than you, and I am not even presenting a case, like you are... go figure?

it seems they may not have set any. If that is the case, that's a botched job.

Yeah right... use your imagination to come up with fantasies that are unlikely to be true... and even when there is decent evidence to the contrary... You are making a lot of "progress" here is your supposed "forward thinking" - which increasingly is seeming a bit backwards from my perspective.

This is a really an important point as the likelihood of success or failure absolutely is impacted by goal setting.

Yes.. If you create a strawman argument with made up facts, then it is much easier to win in that argument..

First, if they have no metric based goals, they will never be able to determine if they actually achieved their goals.

Repetition and made up.

Second, if they have no metric based goals, they will not know how to make course corrections (which are pretty much always needed because with people, things never go perfectly as planned).

Merely because goals might be unclear to you does not mean that either there are none or that theymos, for example, cannot figure out if he perceives progress.... which I am not even going to go along with your seemingly completely made up conjecture that there are no goals...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

When you launch some major intervention impacting thousands of people and don't have any metric based goals, you know what that is called? It is called guessing. If they are guessing, they are playing with fire.

The only one who seems to be guessing around here is you, and the more I read your bullshit, the more I am concluding that you are not even attempting to be genuine.. you are just making up shit, which is also a kind of trolling.

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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June 26, 2018, 08:29:47 PM
 #4637

Does anyone have any references to any stated metric based goals of this Merit system they can kindly post links to? I've been engaged with some people on thread who can't find them. I can't find them. If they exist, I would enjoy reading them. No one is required to reply to me and answer my question. I'm simply asking if anyone knows of written, metric based goals the Merit system was intended to achieve that they can help me find and read myself.

Some examples might look like this...

-The Merit system will reduce spam by 10% within the first 6 months.
-The Merit system will increase length of posts by 20% within the first 6 months.
-The Merit system will decrease the quantity of new user accounts by 30% within the first 6 months.

If anyone has seen any of these from an authoritative source, I would love to read more about them and read that post more thoroughly.

Thanks!
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June 26, 2018, 08:40:49 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #4638

Does anyone have any references to any stated metric based goals of this Merit system they can kindly post links to? I've been engaged with some people on thread who can't find them. I can't find them. If they exist, I would enjoy reading them.

Why wouldn't you just ask theymos directly instead of trollerizing this thread?

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June 26, 2018, 09:27:08 PM
 #4639

This thread should be stickied imo.
A lot of people will ask what's merit or  how to get merits point.

1 question to theymos, how if someone/people buying/selling merit points to ranked up faster?
I hope a permaban for that person/people.

Yea, merit is ought to be earned not bought.i don't like it when people are trying to run faster than their shadows.
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June 26, 2018, 09:27:52 PM
 #4640

Does anyone have any references to any stated metric based goals of this Merit system they can kindly post links to? I've been engaged with some people on thread who can't find them. I can't find them. If they exist, I would enjoy reading them.
Strategical and tactical goals are often set, but corporations do not go around with a full disclosure policy for everyone’s curiosity to be satisfied. This forum, while being rather transparent on conceptual goals, does not need to reveal them in quantitative terms, nor the degree to which they are met. That information tends to be limited to a board of direction, and external resources with access to such information are generally bound by a nda agreement.

As suchmoon stated, you can always ask theymos for full disclosure, but grab a confortable chair for the wait.

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