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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 157782 times)
JayJuanGee
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August 27, 2018, 10:47:45 PM
 #4981

Yes.  Some members advocate for demerits, but it really seems an unnecessary and petty kind of practice, and there seems to be other ways to punish bad posts/posters by 1) not giving merits, 2) substantively responding to the posts, 3) use the trust system 4) report the member (perhaps banning or suspension might be applied if egregious)

Yeah i dont know why they are really want some features like demerit. This place will be a battlefield since day 1 demerits introduced, if that ever happens. I agree with JJG, not giving merit is already a punishment for the bad posters. We just need to add some rules to mae the punishment hit even harder, like making a 1-5 merits requirement to be Jr. Member.

Likely after a bit more than 6 months of implementation, active members are kind of getting a hang for how this new merit system is playing into other forum systems such as activity level and quality of posts, and sure theymos had even mentioned the possibility of getting rid of the trust system or causing the forum's trust system to play less importance.  

IT seems likely that in the early stages of the merit system, some forum members made mistakes with the use of their merits or were a bit unclear about how to earn merits.. what kind of posting or where to post in order to increase the likelihood to earn merits.

Surely, I agree with any complaint or concern from newer members that the momentum of having merits increases a members ability to earn merits, but that is also kind of the way of the world, and many systems advantage folks who are either early contributors or if they earned value under earlier standards.. and when the rules change, sometimes there can be discrepancies based on the earlier rewarding of value.

I believe that if any member is active in the forum and wants to earn merits, and that member explores various areas of the forum that are of interest of that member, the member will figure out ways to earn merits - perhaps not earning merit as quickly as the assumptions of the system, such as averaging the earning of 1 merit per day, but even earning a few merits per week is going to allow for some decent and meaningful progress in ranking up with the passage of time.

I doubt that demerits would cause progress towards increasing substantive and meaningful forum postings, contributions and participation.

Of course, we have to deal with ESG, KYC & AML, but each of them are attack vectors on Bitcoin to be avoided or minimized.

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
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cryptofarid10
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August 28, 2018, 01:45:07 AM
 #4982

I support merit system , just now need to work for receive merit , only spam posts already not actual.
Merit must be of support.Because the Merit system makes everyone Efficient.

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Elqui
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August 28, 2018, 04:50:44 AM
 #4983

its really hard to earn merits now, how i wish a was active here from the moment i joined.  Cry

Actually nowadays it is more difficult to obtain merit and in my opinion this is due to several reasons:
- the merit airdrop is over, or is ending and people do not have any more merit, so they can't +merit even if a message deserves to be rewarded;
- the sources seem less and less active, as the number of sources increases, the number of merit decreases, it should be the opposite;
- some people do not read messages from random people but only from "most popular people";
- some people do not use the merits received but know they keep them in the grave.

the last part made me laugh Cheesy like what i experienced here lately, i want to give someone merit because of his post that helped me a lot and someone that inspire me more to pursue crypto but i dont have any merit. I guess they should have more merit sources, the ones who were always active and appreciate people, not only those famous ones.

thanks for my first ever merit  Shocked Smiley
athanz88
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August 28, 2018, 05:18:47 AM
 #4984


Likely after a bit more than 6 months of implementation, active members are kind of getting a hang for how this new merit system is playing into other forum systems such as activity level and quality of posts, and sure theymos had even mentioned the possibility of getting rid of the trust system or causing the forum's trust system to play less importance.  

I saw Theymos wants to change the trust system, not completely remove it, but i forgot the link to his post.

IT seems likely that in the early stages of the merit system, some forum members made mistakes with the use of their merits or were a bit unclear about how to earn merits.. what kind of posting or where to post in order to increase the likelihood to earn merits.

Surely, I agree with any complaint or concern from newer members that the momentum of having merits increases a members ability to earn merits, but that is also kind of the way of the world, and many systems advantage folks who are either early contributors or if they earned value under earlier standards.. and when the rules change, sometimes there can be discrepancies based on the earlier rewarding of value.

Yeah, it is kind of the way of the world. They just can not go on meta rampaging about how this is unfair and want an equality, it does not work that way.

I believe that if any member is active in the forum and wants to earn merits, and that member explores various areas of the forum that are of interest of that member, the member will figure out ways to earn merits - perhaps not earning merit as quickly as the assumptions of the system, such as averaging the earning of 1 merit per day, but even earning a few merits per week is going to allow for some decent and meaningful progress in ranking up with the passage of time.

I doubt that demerits would cause progress towards increasing substantive and meaningful forum postings, contributions and participation.

I guess so too. We can also add some punishment fro a really low quality post by clicking that report to moderator button.
cryptofarid10
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August 28, 2018, 09:35:51 AM
 #4985

Merit system is a very good system. Now it's hard to achieve Merit.Because of which the disqualification does not up their rank.The reason for this is decreasing the amount of spamming has increased user experience.

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avtandil
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August 28, 2018, 12:54:08 PM
 #4986

Merit system is a very good system. Now it's hard to achieve Merit.Because of which the disqualification does not up their rank.The reason for this is decreasing the amount of spamming has increased user experience.

I completely agree with you, the merit system cleared the forum of spam and bots.  Long live the great system of merit  Wink
LogitechMouse
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August 28, 2018, 01:07:34 PM
 #4987

Merit system is a very good system. Now it's hard to achieve Merit.Because of which the disqualification does not up their rank.The reason for this is decreasing the amount of spamming has increased user experience.

I completely agree with you, the merit system cleared the forum of spam and bots.  Long live the great system of merit  Wink
I disagree with what you said. The merit system didn't cleared the bots and spams here in the forum. Lessen will be a better word to use I think. Even the merit system is implemented, spam and bots are still there.

Long live the great system of merit  Wink
Is the merit system the new KING already  Cheesy

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Bitchef2112
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August 28, 2018, 01:38:45 PM
 #4988

Merit system is a very good system. Now it's hard to achieve Merit.Because of which the disqualification does not up their rank.The reason for this is decreasing the amount of spamming has increased user experience.

I completely agree with you, the merit system cleared the forum of spam and bots.  Long live the great system of merit  Wink
I disagree with what you said. The merit system didn't cleared the bots and spams here in the forum. Lessen will be a better word to use I think. Even the merit system is implemented, spam and bots are still there.

Long live the great system of merit  Wink
Is the merit system the new KING already  Cheesy

I guess it's a slight improvement since people are trying to make more quality posts because of that. (ironic since i have 0 lol)

The bots etc are still here and will continue to post as it's really difficult to discourage that, the good thing is it's easier to tell between bots and actual posters since the attitude must've changed a bit.
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August 28, 2018, 03:41:59 PM
 #4989

its really hard to earn merits now, how i wish a was active here from the moment i joined.  Cry
its really hard to get the merits now but it is hard not impossible to do
The forum offers such rules to increase the quality of each article and that is good for us
I daily still try to find out, actively interact with other posts to earn merit first and hope to be up rank soon
Fighting!!!
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August 28, 2018, 07:17:10 PM
Last edit: August 28, 2018, 08:01:16 PM by coinlocket$
Merited by d5000 (1), DdmrDdmr (1), Kvanko (1)
 #4990

Long time for this kind of update, keep in mind we can assune right now 80% of merit is given from merit source and 80% of merit source has the rank legendary, so the majority of the merit from the higher ranks is from sources!
For a perfect graph we need to remove sources.
I've removed data for admin, founder, mods, Vip and brand new since they have less than 0.0xxx % circulation of total merit.
Datas are from DdmrDdmr datas.


MERIT FROM -> TO






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d5000
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August 28, 2018, 07:53:12 PM
 #4991

It's interesting to see that users tend to favour users with a similar rank when they give out Merits. It seems defintively there's a kind of "division" between higher-ranked and lower-ranked users.

You said that merit sources are mostly Legendary Members, but then they give out most merits to Legendaries too. This may be related to the fact that some Legendaries are among the top quality posters, regularly earning big amounts of merits (e.g. with guides or posts about technical topics).

Interesting that Heros seem a bit more "egalitarian" than Legendaries, while lower ranked members prefer to give merits to other lower-ranked members.

The preference of lower-ranked members for other lower-ranked users may be related to the fact that many of them live mostly in the altcoin forums where merit sources and higher-ranked members are relatively scarce. But I'm only speculating.

My conclusion: Higher-ranked members who like the Merit system, should think about giving more merits to lower-ranked users to combat this "division". Maybe there is influence of some inconscient "group mentality"; that's counterproductive, I think.

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August 28, 2018, 08:33:34 PM
Merited by d5000 (1)
 #4992

<...>
Just a few comments to help contextualize the data and conclusions that may be derived:

- Rank is derived from the user profile, and is in a sense a snapshot of the user’s current profile. The ideal would be to have the implied ranks at the moment of the merit being awarded. Since we do not have that detail, what is used is the next best thing.
Nevertheless, this does imply, for example, that all sMerit to and from @Jet Cash are attributed to the Legendary rank, which is his current rank. In truth, he ranked-up a couple of weeks ago, so to be precise, most of his merit TXs should be really attributed to a Hero rank.

- The graphs cover all sMerit TXs since the Merit System start. Since there was more merit at the beginning, the initial TXs wheigh more than recent TXs.

- Both the above can be mitigated largely by delimiting the data to, let’s say, last running month or so (this can be done on the Merit Dashboard by narrowing the Date Range using the slider). This would be representative of what goes on "now" in the Merit System, kill initial TX wheight, and mitigate the change of rank effect mentioned above.
If the graph were to be redone with this criteria, the percentages would move up to 10 points in some cases, although I believe @d5000’s observations apply just the same.

LoyceV
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August 28, 2018, 08:52:45 PM
 #4993

My conclusion: Higher-ranked members who like the Merit system, should think about giving more merits to lower-ranked users to combat this "division".
I disagree. Merit is meant to highlight good posts, no matter what the rank of the user is. That's why I give Merit to Legendary users too.
On the other hand, if you're a Member and have only a few sMerit to give, I can imagine they don't give them to a higher rank user, as it's "analogous to spitting over the railing at Niagara Falls".

d5000
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August 28, 2018, 09:02:50 PM
 #4994

My conclusion: Higher-ranked members who like the Merit system, should think about giving more merits to lower-ranked users to combat this "division".
I disagree. Merit is meant to highlight good posts, no matter what the rank of the user is. That's why I give Merit to Legendary users too.
I agree with that, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I also give a substantial part of my merits to other Legendaries. But maybe there's an effect that we Legendaries unconsciously value other Legendaries' posts higher than those that come from low-ranked members, even if they were of similar quality.

It's only an invitation to reflect on the practice. Not to propose to merit low-quality posts.


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August 28, 2018, 09:47:32 PM
 #4995

Long time for this kind of update, keep in mind we can assune right now 80% of merit is given from merit source and 80% of merit source has the rank legendary, so the majority of the merit from the higher ranks is from sources!
For a perfect graph we need to remove sources.
I've removed data for admin, founder, mods, Vip and brand new since they have less than 0.0xxx % circulation of total merit.
Datas are from DdmrDdmr datas.


First diagram is really bad, very hard to read, don't use this style, please. Liked other staff and the data itself tho. Keep it up.
coinlocket$
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August 29, 2018, 12:03:35 AM
 #4996

Just a few comments to help contextualize the data and conclusions that may be derived:

- Rank is derived from the user profile, and is in a sense a snapshot of the user’s current profile. The ideal would be to have the implied ranks at the moment of the merit being awarded. Since we do not have that detail, what is used is the next best thing.
Nevertheless, this does imply, for example, that all sMerit to and from @Jet Cash are attributed to the Legendary rank, which is his current rank. In truth, he ranked-up a couple of weeks ago, so to be precise, most of his merit TXs should be really attributed to a Hero rank.

- The graphs cover all sMerit TXs since the Merit System start. Since there was more merit at the beginning, the initial TXs wheigh more than recent TXs.

- Both the above can be mitigated largely by delimiting the data to, let’s say, last running month or so (this can be done on the Merit Dashboard by narrowing the Date Range using the slider). This would be representative of what goes on "now" in the Merit System, kill initial TX wheight, and mitigate the change of rank effect mentioned above.
If the graph were to be redone with this criteria, the percentages would move up to 10 points in some cases, although I believe @d5000’s observations apply just the same.

After months and months, do you think anything is changed? Can you elaborate now a new set of datas without the sMerit spend from knowed sources to get a more truthful graph in the end?
Do you think if we only remove the knowed source merit (instead of removing them all since we do not know them all) do will have a similar graph?

@kvanko I will try to change on next update, ty for feedback!


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Branko
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August 29, 2018, 06:48:34 AM
 #4997

How do you people scrap data from forum? Or is there some tools already built into
forum that do it automatically?

Btw, that application at

https://public.tableau.com/en-us/s/

is great find for me
Piggy
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Merit: 1415



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August 29, 2018, 07:49:57 AM
 #4998

How do you people scrap data from forum? Or is there some tools already built into
forum that do it automatically?

Btw, that application at

https://public.tableau.com/en-us/s/

is great find for me

The merits transactions are public: https://bitcointalk.org/merit.txt.xz

Then you can make your own script in any language(i don't know if there are ready tool, but i assume so) that grab the data from the forum profiles to get the rank or any other info you want.
LoyceV
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August 29, 2018, 08:03:48 AM
 #4999

Then you can make your own script in any language(i don't know if there are ready tool, but i assume so) that grab the data from the forum profiles to get the rank or any other info you want.
@scrapers: If at all possible, limit scraping to new data only, to reduce forum load and get the data faster (the forum only allows one pageview per second). Try to use existing data scraped by other users. If I can provide some data, let me know.

DdmrDdmr
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There are lies, damned lies and statistics. MTwain


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August 29, 2018, 09:48:10 AM
 #5000

<...>
Yes, data distribution does change overtime, although not significantly for all ranks nor combinations. For example, if you delimit the dates to last running month (25/07/2018..24/08/2018) and compare the data to the full history aggregate we can see that:

-   Legendary (From Rank) barely has a variation of over 2 points in the sMerit awarded to any rank (in an other context 2 points is massive-  i.e. sales, but not here).
-   Hero on the other hand goes from awarding 19,81% of its awarded sMerit to the Member rank (Overall historical view), to 11,69% (one month view). That’s over an eight point decrease there. Hero’s assignment to Jr. rank goes from 6,13% to 10,11%, nearly four points increase more.

The above shows that distribution shifts overtime, partly due to causes I pointed out before, and that is why I would favour a view of last running month as a more accurate view (more aligned to day to day nowadays awarding habits).


Recently I created a topic called sMerit Senders & Receivers – Weight of top 100 and 200 weekly contributors. There we saw that the weight of the top 100 sMerit senders is massive (between 60% and 65% of monthly awarded sMerit as of late). Merit sources are likely within that group for sure, so taking them off the equation only covers 35%.40% of awarded sMerit by non-Merit Sources. The weight of Merits Sources is unfortunately such, that not considering them in the from/to rank sMerit awarding scheme would be a massive reduction from reality in my opinion.
On the other hand, If there were to exists a 100% non-equivocal list of Merit Sources, we could consider creating a flag to allow them to be filtered in/out (although you cound not distinguish between personal sMerit and source sMerit being awarded). Nevertheless, I can guess from the top 100/200 some of them, but not all of them (I often appear on the list too, not being a Merit Source).

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