ak49er
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May 07, 2014, 11:32:46 PM |
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I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.
The corollary to what you said is that they still got paid for performing shoddy work which was worth exactly nothing. That doesn't sound right to me, even if it was an honest mistake. Read the BTCGuild small print. Oh right, there isn't any. I think the best "we", (meaning Eleuthria), can do is figure out exactly what happened, and work to make sure it doesn't happen again. Live and learn as they say. If it's cost someone thousands in lost earnings it's all proportional to the couple of hundred bucks it might have cost me. |
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-ck
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Ruu \o/
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May 07, 2014, 11:58:20 PM |
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I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially. As I said a few days ago, an act of malice cannot be ruled out. If you are a large enough miner on a large enough pool, you can sacrifice finding a few blocks to still make profit and prevent contributing to diff rise.. |
Developer/maintainer for cgminer, ckpool/ckproxy, and the -ck kernel
2% Fee Solo mining at solo.ckpool.org
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kendog77
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May 08, 2014, 12:08:25 AM |
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I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially. As I said a few days ago, an act of malice cannot be ruled out. If you are a large enough miner on a large enough pool, you can sacrifice finding a few blocks to still make profit and prevent contributing to diff rise.. That argument makes zero economic sense. Suppose a miner is large enough to make up 10% of BtcGuild, and suppose BtcGuild is 10% of the network for simplicity sake. The miner would be sacrificing 10% of their earnings to keep the overall BTC difficulty from going up an additional 1%. I don't buy it. I could see a very large miner doing this if they wanted to kill a PPS pool and direct users to their own pool (ghash.io???). |
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Entropy-uc
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May 08, 2014, 12:09:36 AM |
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I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.
This must have been a very large farm in order to hurt BtcGuild by 10 to 15%, so it's very unlikely that they would also want to reduce their own earnings by that amount on purpose.
eleuthria, is there any reliable way to flag and deal with this type of issue sooner in the future? I assume it must be fairly obvious for very large farms.
The probability this was an honest mistake is zero. You have a group with more than a petahash that suddenly decided to pool mine and they solve no blocks for a month. A petahash is not brought online overnight. There were certainly mining solo before this, and discovered problems with solo mining. There is absolutely no reason for such a large operation to pay pool fees. Further, Michael since you are listening now, you should realize that cockroaches never appear alone. Dig deeper and you will find more problems. We pulled out of your pool over a month ago because the bad luck was statistically unbelievable then. This is not the only cheater in play. |
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Minor Miner
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Merit: 1020
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May 08, 2014, 12:20:08 AM |
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I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially. As I said a few days ago, an act of malice cannot be ruled out. If you are a large enough miner on a large enough pool, you can sacrifice finding a few blocks to still make profit and prevent contributing to diff rise.. That argument makes zero economic sense. Suppose a miner is large enough to make up 10% of BtcGuild, and suppose BtcGuild is 10% of the network for simplicity sake. The miner would be sacrificing 10% of their earnings to keep the overall BTC difficulty from going up an additional 1%. I don't buy it. I could see a very large miner doing this if they wanted to kill a PPS pool and direct users to their own pool. The only way it makes sense to be malicious is if michael is wrong and there is not just a simple software fix to allow the freerider to start solving blocks again. Personally, I find it hard to believe they did not know their machines were firing blanks. I though that some dark miner (likely solo mining) found out their equipment was not solving blocks but generating valid hashes. So, they went to the largest pools where they could hide and still get money from their useless hashes. In my scenario, we all need to worry and that is why I want to know who it is and I want to see some type of proof that they fixed their firmware. |
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kendog77
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May 08, 2014, 12:31:59 AM |
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I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.
This must have been a very large farm in order to hurt BtcGuild by 10 to 15%, so it's very unlikely that they would also want to reduce their own earnings by that amount on purpose.
eleuthria, is there any reliable way to flag and deal with this type of issue sooner in the future? I assume it must be fairly obvious for very large farms.
The probability this was an honest mistake is zero. You have a group with more than a petahash that suddenly decided to pool mine and they solve no blocks for a month. A petahash is not brought online overnight. There were certainly mining solo before this, and discovered problems with solo mining. There is absolutely no reason for such a large operation to pay pool fees. Further, Michael since you are listening now, you should realize that cockroaches never appear alone. Dig deeper and you will find more problems. We pulled out of your pool over a month ago because the bad luck was statistically unbelievable then. This is not the only cheater in play. I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it. |
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-ck
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Ruu \o/
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May 08, 2014, 12:33:57 AM |
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Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Great quote, but we've already seen enough stupidity in bitcoin and we're about due for some more malice... |
Developer/maintainer for cgminer, ckpool/ckproxy, and the -ck kernel
2% Fee Solo mining at solo.ckpool.org
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ak49er
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May 08, 2014, 12:47:38 AM |
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I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it. Very possible. In which case it was with ill intent that they moved their hash power to pools from solo mining. And now that they know the fix they'll simply thank us and go back to solo mining.  Either way I think there's little that can be done. And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter. |
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eleuthria (OP)
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May 08, 2014, 12:53:04 AM |
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I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it. Either way I think there's little that can be done. And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter. What kind of bitcoiner are you? Don't you know that in these parts, everybody is all pro-anonymity...until you don't like them, in which case it's only reasonable to demand that a user's information be given out publicly to an angry mob? |
RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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ak49er
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May 08, 2014, 01:01:42 AM |
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I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it. Either way I think there's little that can be done. And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter. What kind of bitcoiner are you? Don't you know that in these parts, everybody is all pro-anonymity...until you don't like them, in which case it's only reasonable to demand that a user's information be given out publicly to an angry mob? Maybe I should switch from bitcoin miner to pitchfork manufacturer?  |
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-ck
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Activity: 4298
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Ruu \o/
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May 08, 2014, 01:04:40 AM |
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I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it. Either way I think there's little that can be done. And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter. What kind of bitcoiner are you? Don't you know that in these parts, everybody is all pro-anonymity...until you don't like them, in which case it's only reasonable to demand that a user's information be given out publicly to an angry mob? Maybe I should switch from bitcoin miner to pitchfork manufacturer? So long as you take preorders for forks at a price that never allow you to pick up enough hay to... |
Developer/maintainer for cgminer, ckpool/ckproxy, and the -ck kernel
2% Fee Solo mining at solo.ckpool.org
-ck
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ak49er
Sr. Member
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Activity: 672
Merit: 250
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May 08, 2014, 01:09:08 AM |
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I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it. Either way I think there's little that can be done. And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter. What kind of bitcoiner are you? Don't you know that in these parts, everybody is all pro-anonymity...until you don't like them, in which case it's only reasonable to demand that a user's information be given out publicly to an angry mob? Maybe I should switch from bitcoin miner to pitchfork manufacturer? So long as you take preorders for forks that never allow you to pick up enough hay to... Promise two tines and only deliver one? And not until winter.  |
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IYFTech
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May 08, 2014, 01:14:21 AM |
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Or the winter after........  |
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jedimstr
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May 08, 2014, 01:15:32 AM |
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Or the winter after........ But still promise it in.... Two weeks. |
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stan258
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May 08, 2014, 02:07:48 AM |
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Or the winter after........ But still promise it in.... Two weeks. And Its ok If we are late because we have a Fork protection plan for added value |
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PatMan
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May 08, 2014, 02:23:40 AM |
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An extra prong upgrade.......
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not.you
Legendary
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Merit: 1018
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May 08, 2014, 02:25:55 AM |
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I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.
This must have been a very large farm in order to hurt BtcGuild by 10 to 15%, so it's very unlikely that they would also want to reduce their own earnings by that amount on purpose.
eleuthria, is there any reliable way to flag and deal with this type of issue sooner in the future? I assume it must be fairly obvious for very large farms.
The probability this was an honest mistake is zero. You have a group with more than a petahash that suddenly decided to pool mine and they solve no blocks for a month. A petahash is not brought online overnight. There were certainly mining solo before this, and discovered problems with solo mining. There is absolutely no reason for such a large operation to pay pool fees. Further, Michael since you are listening now, you should realize that cockroaches never appear alone. Dig deeper and you will find more problems. We pulled out of your pool over a month ago because the bad luck was statistically unbelievable then. This is not the only cheater in play. I'm not sure I have caught every post on this issue but I believe I saw a ways back that it was said that this miner had moved from eligius to BTCguild and as a person who has been mining on eligius for months I can say that the luck hasn't looked so good over there for a while. It's too early to say if it is turning around but it sounds like whoever this is had to know before they moved here. If they really can't fix it, then I imagine they will move to another pool and keep on scamming. |
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ak49er
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May 08, 2014, 02:42:41 AM |
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I'm not sure I have caught every post on this issue but I believe I saw a ways back that it was said that this miner had moved from eligius to BTCguild and as a person who has been mining on eligius for months I can say that the luck hasn't looked so good over there for a while. It's too early to say if it is turning around but it sounds like whoever this is had to know before they moved here. If they really can't fix it, then I imagine they will move to another pool and keep on scamming.
That would be my guess. Which pool should we refer them to? |
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MoreBloodWine
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May 08, 2014, 02:50:29 AM |
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I'm not sure I have caught every post on this issue but I believe I saw a ways back that it was said that this miner had moved from eligius to BTCguild and as a person who has been mining on eligius for months I can say that the luck hasn't looked so good over there for a while. It's too early to say if it is turning around but it sounds like whoever this is had to know before they moved here. If they really can't fix it, then I imagine they will move to another pool and keep on scamming.
That would be my guess. Which pool should we refer them to? Ghash |
To be decided...
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calichomp
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May 08, 2014, 03:16:45 AM |
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I have heard that Spondoolies is testing their miners in pools right now. I have also heard buzzing about the fact that they are not yielding as many solved shares as should be theoretically possible. Could this be because of a hardware bug in their chips?
I have requested a refund on my miners for them and have swapped to buying up miners on eBay and buying coins at the current low price.
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