Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia.

[Rassah]

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/09/russian-channel-ntv-demonizes-right-sector/
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/09/dmytro-yarosh-strategic-plan-for-the-general-population/

Right Sector is a known neo-nazi organisation and they are supported by the Ukrainian government. They don't even hide it, using symbles like the Wolves Angle and the black red flag, which were used by nazi's in WWII. Their leader is Dmytro Yarosh who said that the Ukrainian government is riddled with traitors in the second article and the people should take a stand against them. Guess it's hard to keep a good nazi in line.

Don't forget that Dmytro Yarosh got 0.7% of the vote in Ukraine, and is opposed by the majority of Ukrainians, thus is very unlikely to be supported by the currently ruling party in Ukraine. And if the government supports him or his ideas in any way, Ukrainians have already demonstrated their ability to kick out corrupt politicians at least twice.

[RoadTrain]

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/09/russian-channel-ntv-demonizes-right-sector/
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/09/dmytro-yarosh-strategic-plan-for-the-general-population/

Right Sector is a known neo-nazi organisation and they are supported by the Ukrainian government. They don't even hide it, using symbles like the Wolves Angle and the black red flag, which were used by nazi's in WWII. Their leader is Dmytro Yarosh who said that the Ukrainian government is riddled with traitors in the second article and the people should take a stand against them. Guess it's hard to keep a good nazi in line.

Don't forget that Dmytro Yarosh got 0.7% of the vote in Ukraine, and is opposed by the majority of Ukrainians, thus is very unlikely to be supported by the currently ruling party in Ukraine. And if the government supports him or his ideas in any way, Ukrainians have already demonstrated their ability to kick out corrupt politicians at least twice.

So it's ok for you that neo-nazis participate in official elections, that they are operating freely, have guns? In fact, they are nazi gangs. Don't you think that in a civilized country they should be outlawed and fought against?

[Rassah]

Brilliant article:

Russia and the Menace of Unreality

In today’s Russia, by contrast, the idea of truth is irrelevant.

...

http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-putin-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/

Brilliant propaganda. Starts with a bold statement, then tries to prove it by talking about non-related stuff. Suggesting that media in any way relates to truth is naive at best.
There's strong propaganda, but in no way you can draw a conclusion that "in today’s Russia, the idea of truth is irrelevant". The idea of truth doesn't have anything to do with media and propaganda.

So you admin that in Russia, media no longer "in any way relates to truth," and that "truth doesn't have anything to do with media?" Good to know, since that's what we've been claiming all along. Here in "the west," out media still tries to present the truth, and is shamed when it gets caught lying.

[Rassah]

Shouldn't that be 880 - 2014?

[Rassah]

The NAF has retreated from the village of Chervonepole, thereby lifting the siege of Mariupol. I just hope that the Kiev junta does not use this opportunity to move more troops and hardware to that city.

Why not? The majority of the people in that city obviously want to stay with Ukraine. Do you want NAF to forcefully take it over and force the people to be a part of Russia (Novorussia)? Wouldn't that make the NAF just as bad as the evil Ukrainian junta?

[RoadTrain]

Brilliant article:

Russia and the Menace of Unreality

In today’s Russia, by contrast, the idea of truth is irrelevant.

...

http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-putin-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/

Brilliant propaganda. Starts with a bold statement, then tries to prove it by talking about non-related stuff. Suggesting that media in any way relates to truth is naive at best.
There's strong propaganda, but in no way you can draw a conclusion that "in today’s Russia, the idea of truth is irrelevant". The idea of truth doesn't have anything to do with media and propaganda.

So you admin that in Russia, media no longer "in any way relates to truth," and that "truth doesn't have anything to do with media?" Good to know, since that's what we've been claiming all along. Here in "the west," out media still tries to present the truth, and is shamed when it gets caught lying.

You've twisted my words. I didn't claim it the way you're trying to show. I didn't mean Russia exclusively, I meant all media. They are all lying and spreading propaganda, just on different scales and to different beneficiaries.
The second sentence is a bit naive, but here in Russia people also don't like feeding them bullshit.

[RoadTrain]

The NAF has retreated from the village of Chervonepole, thereby lifting the siege of Mariupol. I just hope that the Kiev junta does not use this opportunity to move more troops and hardware to that city.

Why not? The majority of the people in that city obviously want to stay with Ukraine. Do you want NAF to forcefully take it over and force the people to be a part of Russia (Novorussia)? Wouldn't that make the NAF just as bad as the evil Ukrainian junta?

I like these untenable statements. How did you measure this?

[Rassah]

Crimes of Ukrainian Aidar battalion confirmed in Amnesty Int’l report - Russia
http://rt.com/news/186576-ukraine-battalion-war-crimes/

An Amnesty International report has confirmed that war crimes including abductions, executions and extortion were committed by the Ukrainian Aidar battalion in Lugansk region, eastern Ukraine, an official from Russia’s Foreign Ministry says.

“The report confirms large-scale crimes, including war [crimes] made routinely and under the aegis of Ukrainian law enforcement agencies, by the leaders and members of the Aidar battalion,” said Konstantin Dolgov, the Foreign Ministry’s commissioner for human rights.

“Amnesty International points only to some of these [crimes] – abductions, unlawful detention, ill-treatment, theft, extortion, including demanding ransom for abducted Ukrainians, and simple robbery from the civilian population,” Dolgov said.

Hmm. So both sides have volunteers that are crazy and are committing atrocities (See previous HRW article about Separatists doing the exact same things to people in towns they control). I'm not a big fan of fighting crazy with crazy. I do hope Ukrainian government condemns their actions, as I hope Russia and Ukraine condemn the actions of the Separatists.

[Rassah]

So it's ok for you that neo-nazis participate in official elections, that they are operating freely, have guns? In fact, they are nazi gangs.

You can't stop anyone from participating in official elections in a democracy. The most you can do is make sure to keep voting against them. Or you can be a dictatorship and ban everyone but "approved" parties from running (like Soviet Union did).

Don't you think that in a civilized country they should be outlawed and fought against?

I don't know, don't you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Russia

"In a country [Russia] that lost more people defeating the Nazis than any other country, there are now an estimated 50,000 to 70,000 neo-Nazis, half of the world's total."

Russian National Unity (RNE), founded in 1990 and led by Alexander Barkashov ... adopted the swastika as its symbol, and sees itself as the avant-garde of a coming national revolution. Historian Walter Laqueur calls RNE far closer to the Nazi model than the LDPR. RNE publishes several news sheets; one of them, Russky poryadok, claims to have a circulation of 150,000. Full members of RNE are called Soratnik (comrades in arms), receive combat training at locations near Moscow, and many of them work as security officers or armed guards.

Seems like it's a MUCH bigger problem in Russia than in Ukraine.

[Rassah]

You've twisted my words. I didn't claim it the way you're trying to show. I didn't mean Russia exclusively, I meant all media. They are all lying and spreading propaganda, just on different scales and to different beneficiaries.
The second sentence is a bit naive, but here in Russia people also don't like feeding them bullshit.

If you live in Russia, that's something you would be expected to believe. In Europe and US, we have some media that we know are lying and spreading propaganda, and some media that pride themselves on telling the truth, and actually compete against other media by exposing their propaganda. For instance, MSNBC often points out and debunks lies reported by Fox News, and in UK, BBC often points out and debunks lies reported by The Daily Mail and other propaganda news sources. There is a competition here for who can disprove the other's lies first, and present itself as the only truthful source you should listen to.

What are the competing media sources in Russia? When RT is owned by the government, and most other media sources are also owned by the government, or are heavily influenced by them, who is there to try to debunk RT?

[Rassah]

The NAF has retreated from the village of Chervonepole, thereby lifting the siege of Mariupol. I just hope that the Kiev junta does not use this opportunity to move more troops and hardware to that city.

Why not? The majority of the people in that city obviously want to stay with Ukraine. Do you want NAF to forcefully take it over and force the people to be a part of Russia (Novorussia)? Wouldn't that make the NAF just as bad as the evil Ukrainian junta?

I like these untenable statements. How did you measure this?

Very easy. Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YFBsXZJZpw
http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA4LzI4L2ExL1VrcmFpbmVNYXJpLmMyZTEzLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/bf071b3d/a3a/Ukraine-Mariupol-02.jpg
http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA4LzI4L2ExL1VrcmFpbmVNYXJpLjMyY2Q4LmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/2991ecbc/52a/Ukraine-Mariupol-03.jpg
http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/08/29/p190gavq6n3td1a2k31n9o1s504/big.jpg



If majority of Mariupol wanted to join with the separatists, they would be the ones protesting, or just plain joining to begin with. Doesn't it bother you that all these big cities have to be "taken over" by separatists, instead of them just willingly joining them?

[RoadTrain]

You've twisted my words. I didn't claim it the way you're trying to show. I didn't mean Russia exclusively, I meant all media. They are all lying and spreading propaganda, just on different scales and to different beneficiaries.
The second sentence is a bit naive, but here in Russia people also don't like feeding them bullshit.

If you live in Russia, that's something you would be expected to believe. In Europe and US, we have some media that we know are lying and spreading propaganda, and some media that pride themselves on telling the truth, and actually compete against other media by exposing their propaganda. For instance, MSNBC often points out and debunks lies reported by Fox News, and in UK, BBC often points out and debunks lies reported by The Daily Mail and other propaganda news sources. There is a competition here for who can disprove the other's lies first, and present itself as the only truthful source you should listen to.

What are the competing media sources in Russia? When RT is owned by the government, and most other media sources are also owned by the government, or are heavily influenced by them, who is there to try to debunk RT?

Plain lies are relatively easy to point out. Propaganda is harder, it's not necessarily lies, but a biased presentation of facts. This is what all media do. And this is what this thread contains a lot of.

Competition in Russia is mostly vertical, as opposed to horizontal competition that you've showed. It means that individuals or small communities here often debunk lies by conducting analyses, cross-checking the sources and so on.

[RoadTrain]

The NAF has retreated from the village of Chervonepole, thereby lifting the siege of Mariupol. I just hope that the Kiev junta does not use this opportunity to move more troops and hardware to that city.

Why not? The majority of the people in that city obviously want to stay with Ukraine. Do you want NAF to forcefully take it over and force the people to be a part of Russia (Novorussia)? Wouldn't that make the NAF just as bad as the evil Ukrainian junta?

I like these untenable statements. How did you measure this?

Very easy. Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YFBsXZJZpw
http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA4LzI4L2ExL1VrcmFpbmVNYXJpLmMyZTEzLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/bf071b3d/a3a/Ukraine-Mariupol-02.jpg
http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA4LzI4L2ExL1VrcmFpbmVNYXJpLjMyY2Q4LmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/2991ecbc/52a/Ukraine-Mariupol-03.jpg
http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/08/29/p190gavq6n3td1a2k31n9o1s504/big.jpg

If majority of Mariupol wanted to join with the separatists, they would be the ones protesting, or just plain joining to begin with. Doesn't it bother you that all these big cities have to be "taken over" by separatists, instead of them just willingly joining them?

Unconvincing. A few hundred rally in a city of 400k.

Do you actually think people will actively protest there after May 9 shootings? I certainly wouldn't. But it wouldn't mean I'd be pro-Kiev.

[Balthazar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PGiSwwlW_A

Don Cossacks are prepairing to kick the junta's asses.

[blablahblah]

16 august 2008

 

Any Russian can google some old photo and say "the Ukrainians said this..."

It's called putting words in someone's mouth.


Provide a link to a *.UA website where the actual claim was made. And then prove that it wasn't planted by Russian opposition.

[needbmw]

Provide a link to a *.UA website where the actual claim was made. And then prove that it wasn't planted by Russian opposition.

Not a problem: http://republic.com.ua/article/32325-V-Snejnoe-vehali-tanki-T-72-iz-Rossii.html

*.ua sites spreading bullshit all over the day.

[Zeta0S]

The Russian still own the Dutch a lot of lives.

[Rassah]

The NAF has retreated from the village of Chervonepole, thereby lifting the siege of Mariupol. I just hope that the Kiev junta does not use this opportunity to move more troops and hardware to that city.

Why not? The majority of the people in that city obviously want to stay with Ukraine. Do you want NAF to forcefully take it over and force the people to be a part of Russia (Novorussia)? Wouldn't that make the NAF just as bad as the evil Ukrainian junta?

I like these untenable statements. How did you measure this?

Very easy. Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YFBsXZJZpw
http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA4LzI4L2ExL1VrcmFpbmVNYXJpLmMyZTEzLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/bf071b3d/a3a/Ukraine-Mariupol-02.jpg
http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA4LzI4L2ExL1VrcmFpbmVNYXJpLjMyY2Q4LmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/2991ecbc/52a/Ukraine-Mariupol-03.jpg
http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/08/29/p190gavq6n3td1a2k31n9o1s504/big.jpg

If majority of Mariupol wanted to join with the separatists, they would be the ones protesting, or just plain joining to begin with. Doesn't it bother you that all these big cities have to be "taken over" by separatists, instead of them just willingly joining them?

Unconvincing. A few hundred ...

About 3,000 actually. And the anti- crowd didn't protest or have rallies, which would have been easy for them to do if they were a majority.

[myshownow]

SEEKING PROGRESS FROM THE COMATOSE


The noisy discussons here have become too parochial for me. It's obvious Putin wants Ukraine under its orbit and it's obvious he has already done so despite the fireworks on the ground. WE are dealing with blind emotions here and  probably it's best to just let them implode with their insanity in time. What interests me is the swift developments within the imploding bankrupt WEstern countries themselves. The Ukraine fiasco is really becoming their Waterloo.
Notice:
1. When Merkel toured the Baltic countries just before she visited Ukraine, she declared NATO won't station troops in the Baltic.
2. A week after that, Obama toured the Baltic and he declared NATO will station troops in the Baltic
3. Germany has been berating the FRench to stick to their deficit goals and the hard-up Frech are simply unable to do so. But now here comes the appointment of the new EU Finance Minister- Pierre Muscovici, the failed former Frech Socialist finance minister and clearly not a fan of the Germans, which described him as "not wise personnel decision"

4. Deutsche Bank today declared that the current economic bubble in the West, which is enriching the top 1% and destroying the poor and the middle-class, has to go on or the current global financial system collapses.Well, if the current global system is maintained by bubbles, this will only mean hardships for the 99% and we have seen how the EU voted in the last EU elections. People are mad. But since bubbles ultimately explode, does this mean the current global financial system will collapse soon?

Obviously, but the significant thing there is it's obvious the major economy in the EU, Germany,  is finding itself marginalized,  and being the only viable economy there, will it let itself be engulfed helplessly among the games of the losers around it?

Will it let itself be trampled by the biggest loser itself, the bankrupt US ($220 trillion liabilities out of $17 trillion GDP which is 75% consumption but the people can't consume much anymore as shown by the falling data of consumption due to increasing poverty as confirmed by findings that 1 out of 5 children are now in poverty?

The only remaining attribute of the old Western financial system is its convenience, structures in place. But the rich emerging countries don't need financing from them anymore, they are actually more liquid. But the convenient structures are now being installed by the new superpowers themselves. Russia & China just announced they will be building their own SWIFT system of interbank transaction. The birth of an alternative to the insolvent WEstern financial system is here.

That's what is funny with the UKraine fiasco- the UKrainians were allegedly seeking progress from the comatose. Guess who are the new vanguards of the more liquid world financial system which, at its birth, is already supported by half of the world's population?

Among them is... Well, Mother Russia.



I just need to add this...

BTW, this is the reason I called Putin very clever. Look how he used the Ukraine crisis not only to reshape the POst-Soviet space  but that he has set into motion the collapse of its enemies, not only economically but militarily (the NATo countries are too hard up really, & they will have no chance whatsoever when the bubbles start bursting, inevitabl). He can regain everything now if he wants using the US declaration on Crimea: the Crimean independence is illegal because there was never a referendum in UKraine. Ergo UKraine is still part of Russia because the Russians never consented to let it go. Ergo so do the Baltics, Moldova & Georgia. I think, we can give the rest their independence, they remained friendly anyway.

[Rassah]

I was going to say, I really hope that Russia doesn't become the new world ruler, considering how corrupt and totalitarian their government is, how much they trample on human rights, and how much their culture apparently breeds apathy and neonazi levels of nationalism, thinking that everyone just collapsing and being independent would be a much better outcome then being forced under Russia...

And then I remembered that "As of 2012 oil and gas sector accounted for 16% of the GDP, 52% of federal budget revenues and over 70% of total exports", many of which are going to EU, so if the "West" collapses, Russia will follow. And before you say, "But China!...," at least 40% of China's exports are going to the "West," and that really high US debt you guys keep bringing up? A lot of that is to China, which owns $1.28 TRILLION in US debt, from which it earns $26.9 billion in interest payments every year, and which it holds as treasury notes to suppress the value of its own currency to make their exports cheaper and more competitive. If US collapses, not only will China instantly lose $1.28 trillion in assets, but it will lose a huge income, and its currency value will shoot up, as will the price of their exports and labor, making them really uncompetitive for outsourcing. Their economy will collapse as well, combined with massive unemployment. So, China will lose their export economy and many of their workers will become unemployed, Russia will find itself not being able to sell its oil to anyone (Brazil isn't doing all that well either BTW), and because much of Russia is held up by social welfare programs paid by those oil and gas profits (keeps the population pacified, but stupid, and keeps the economy from developing), when those social welfare programs dry up (or lead to massive hyperinflation), there will be massive mayhem in the streets of Russia. I am certain Jews will be blamed.

So, if "The West" falls, your favorite pets Russia and China will fall with them.

P.S. Oil and resources do not make for the richest economy in a nation. Who are the wealthiest, most economically developed nations in the Middle East? Oil-rich Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia? Nope! It's Israel and Dubai, the two countries that have no oil whatsoever!