Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia.

[Balthazar]

Poroshenko's explanation of the ceasefire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFsXc8oWkyw

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[bryant.coleman]

Here is the ceasefire agreement:

http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/07/protocol-of-the-tripartite-contact-group-minsk-september-5-2014/

It is clear that Putin has cheated the people of Donbass once again. 3,000 civilian deaths and 2,000 militia deaths all gone in vain. Putin was concerned that someone would freeze his Muslim friends' (Renat Akhmetov, Vagit Alekperov.etc) bank accounts, and so forced the NAF to agree to the ceasefire. No mention of DPR or LPR in the document. What an insult?

[Balthazar]

No mention of DPR or LPR in the document. What an insult?

Actually this agreement is fine but only if it will be fulfilled. It allows LPR and DPR to continue their existance as de-facto independent states without de jure recognition.

No suprise here, it's a usual practice because any mention of LPR or DPR would mean an official recognition. Nobody is ready to recognize them yet, this could take many decades even after all this crap will be finished. See Abkhazia or S. Ossetia for example, more than 20 years of undefined status before official recognition. Or Northern Cyprus which still isn't recognized by anybody except Turkey. Or even People's Republic of China which had a limited recognition until 1971.

Check old ceasefire agreements between Abkhazia or S.Osseia and Georgia, I bet that you won't see any direct mention of these states.

[centauribit]

Russia, which still operates from a Cold War mindset something the US didn't stop doing until Obama saw Ukrainian membership in the EU as the first step towards a Ukrainian seat on NATO

[Balthazar]

Russia, which still operates from a Cold War mindset

Seems as a joke.

saw Ukrainian membership in the EU

He really saw Ukrainian membership in the EU? Well, then I have to ask what did he smoke, because association agreement has nothing to do with membership. Some of EU officials have a funny joke about this, "Ukraine will join EU right after Turkey". In simpler words, Ukraine won't get EU membership ever because EU isn't interested in this due to economical reasons.

as the first step towards a Ukrainian seat on NATO

Quote from charter of the NATO:

States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.

It's safe to bet that it isn't going to happen. There is a bunch of territorial disputes and Ukraine isn't going to do anything to resolve them. Actually, Poroshenko and Turchinov have already declared that war is the only solution in case of Crimea and LPR/DPR. And they did it many times.

[deisik]

States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.

It's safe to bet that it isn't going to happen. There is a bunch of territorial disputes and Ukraine isn't going to do anything to resolve them. Actually, Poroshenko and Turchinov have already declared that war is the only solution in case of Crimea and LPR/DPR. And they did it many times.

I don't think that Ukraine is going to join NATO any time soon, but let's once again recall the Northern Cyprus which is an area of conflict between the two NATO members (Greece and Turkey). Did this somehow hinder their NATO membership? My point is that if NATO (read USA) would want to make Ukraine its member, no article of the NATO treaty could prevent this...

[Balthazar]

I don't think that Ukraine is going to join NATO any time soon, but let's once again recall the Northern Cyprus which is an area of conflict between the two NATO members (Greece and Turkey). Did this somehow hindered their NATO membership?

These cases are completely different. Turkey doesn't claim to sovereignty over the Northern Cyprus, they're recognizing them as independent state. With Greece situation is similar, they doesn't claim to sovereignty over the southern Cyprus, they're recognizing them as independent state. So there is no conflict between Turkey and Greece, de jure it's internal conflict of the third side.

On the other hand, ukrainian junta isn't smart enough and declared its sovereignty over the Crimea and some other uncontrolled territories.

if NATO (read USA) would want to make Ukraine its member

If they're crazy you mean? It's not hard to guess what will happen on the next day after signing the treaty because we both know why junta wants this.

[Pagan]

ruSSian terrorists commit atrocity in Starobeshevo in Donetsk Oblast, hang body on wire

September 5, 2014 | 22:14
The body of a Ukrainian paratrooper was hanged on power lines in Starobeshevo. (video)
The village is controlled by DNR, who hanged body of a murdered Ukrainian paratrooper on a power line and proudly wrote about this crime in the internet.
In Irkutsk, a City Council member from the United Russia party, Gushchin, urged citizens, to "kill Ukrainians everywhere, not only in Novorossiya."
And he did it for an obvious reason: his main rival in the election to the local council is a man of Ukrainian descent with the surname Matsenko.
Russian propaganda works. The savagery didn't cause any indignation.

http://podrobnosti.ua/accidents/2014/09/05/992120.html

[Pagan]

another ruSSian animal

[Pagan]

ruSSia removes from the Donbass its battered troops and replaces them with fresh ones.

Earlier reports already indicated that Luhansk is fill of ruSSian troops who have removed the remnants of separatists from their positions. Electricity lines are connected with ruSSia, ruSSian passports and rubles are distributed...

http://evroua.com/rossiya-vyvodit-iz-donbassa-razbitye-vojska-vmesto-nix-perebrasyvaet-svezhie/

[FortuneJack]

another ruSSian animal

and the world just observes 

[Paya]

It is clear that Putin has cheated the people of Donbass once again. 3,000 civilian deaths and 2,000 militia deaths all gone in vain.

With all due respect, I disagree. Nothing has gone to vain.

Assuming that it's going to be respected (which is yet to be seen), Minsk protocol is far from being some kind of ultimate solution, it defines only the most basic prerequisites for more serious talks between Kiev and rebels - we should be seeing plenty of that in the upcoming months. One way or another, Ukrainian oligarch rulers will have to acknowledge the will of the people on the southeast. With this document, they are unwillingly starting to do so. DNR/LNR managed to survive against all odds and I am seeing these two entities as core, a seed if you like. This is just a beginning of irreversible process in which Ukraine will necessarily go through deep changes. Hopefully, for the better.

But yes, rebels must be careful and keep their arms ready. Because warmongering Ukrainian nationalist gangs, encouraged and sponsored by certain shady (or perhaps not so shady) circles from the West, should not be trusted. They want war, preferably not only with their own people but also with Russia which they were desperately trying to drag into this conflict all the time, and they might try again. Just look at Pagan's rubbish he keeps posting - he is a voice of sinister forces lurking behind the scene.

[Balthazar]

another ruSSian animal

and the world just observes  

Yep, the world is watching publication of photos from a place where laws of plane geometry are not working.

[Morbid]

World War 2 had been over for decades, so why did the Russian soldiers still refuse to go home?

This is a good question, why US continues to occupy Europe over seven decades (rhetorical question)

Where? (Not rhetorical. I expect an answer.)

The Germans? Spain maybe? Where are all the oppressed European people who have been forced to adopt an obviously inferior and less efficient system of government, along with an extensive police state apparatus so that they cannot fight back?

Your claim is nonsensical because over that time, the West was clearly superior in practically every metric you care to suggest. Superior wealth, superior personal freedoms, superior health and well-being... People would only oppose it if there was some other, even better alternative. It is only in recent times, where the US has apparently started to degrade severely, even if more subtle flaws were visible before 1990. Meanwhile, Western Europe (and, since 1990, Eastern Europe) has continued to rebuild.

Furthermore, in case you haven't noticed, the systems in the EU and the US are significantly different from each other. The typical Russian prejudice against "the West" cannot even be taken seriously because it's laughable and idiotic.

sadly, your remarks are very shallow when studying geopolitics and crypto economy. whether one system being more superior or not is question to be answered once both systems eventually fail - its a long-term answer. after the ww2 the west decided to live using the ponzi scheme system on futures' wealth - the wealth that dont exist yet. obviously from the prospective of a person this system is superior because its generating better living conditions in short period of time, but the downfall of that system is that there will be a day when house of cards comes down stripping all the wealth away from other generations down the line. the soviet economical system is much harder to build since there is no non-existent wealth around - the wealth is only what physically exist. so by the end of 70s soviets managed to achieve very high standard living. give them 30-40 more years of non-interruptive development and they could have extremely stable non-crashing system with high quality of living that could last for centuries. though with arrival of gorbachev (& his masonic overlords) it all got dismantled from top to bottom.
and please stop all the hatred. we are all human beings.

[Pagan]

lol @Morbid "so by the end of 70s soviets managed to achieve very high standard living" - bullshit. I born an in fucking cccp and I know about "ruSSian standards" . It's been only poverty and depression here. cccp - the jail builded on blood.

[Snail2]

ruSSian terrorists commit atrocity in Starobeshevo in Donetsk Oblast, hang body on wire

September 5, 2014 | 22:14
The body of a Ukrainian paratrooper was hanged on power lines in Starobeshevo. (video)
The village is controlled by DNR, who hanged body of a murdered Ukrainian paratrooper on a power line and proudly wrote about this crime in the internet.
In Irkutsk, a City Council member from the United Russia party, Gushchin, urged citizens, to "kill Ukrainians everywhere, not only in Novorossiya."
And he did it for an obvious reason: his main rival in the election to the local council is a man of Ukrainian descent with the surname Matsenko.
Russian propaganda works. The savagery didn't cause any indignation.

http://podrobnosti.ua/accidents/2014/09/05/992120.html

You never seen the effects of a big(ish) high explosive shell I guess. The explosion of a GRAD warhead somewhere close to it can turn a more than two tons UAZ "jeep" to plane (for a short time of course), so throwing a 80-100 kg human onto the cables above the road isn't new or surprising. You can find similar pictures from WW I and WW II. An internal explosion in a AFV can also throw the crew several meters high if the hatches are open.
The half naked guy most likely the same stuff. Nearby explosions are tend to rip your clothes off. Combat vest and boots are usually doing well but as trousers are the most loose parts of the combat gear those are often go away.
BTW even the very, very civilized US, UK, German and French soldiers used to take pictures with dead enemies. So nothing new or unusual again. You can read a lot about the psychology behind these kind of pictures.

[Snail2]

sadly, your remarks are very shallow when studying geopolitics and crypto economy. whether one system being more superior or not is question to be answered once both systems eventually fail - its a long-term answer. after the ww2 the west decided to live using the ponzi scheme system on futures' wealth - the wealth that dont exist yet. obviously from the prospective of a person this system is superior because its generating better living conditions in short period of time, but the downfall of that system is that there will be a day when house of cards comes down stripping all the wealth away from other generations down the line. the soviet economical system is much harder to build since there is no non-existent wealth around - the wealth is only what physically exist. so by the end of 70s soviets managed to achieve very high standard living. give them 30-40 more years of non-interruptive development and they could have extremely stable non-crashing system with high quality of living that could last for centuries. though with arrival of gorbachev (& his masonic overlords) it all got dismantled from top to bottom.
and please stop all the hatred. we are all human beings.

Well, as a tourist I had the opportunity to take a look at those "very high living standards" and to be honest I wasn't impressed at all. So you should review your sources.

[Pagan]

"ruSSian caesefire:"

Agence France-Presse ‏@AFP
#UPDATE: Mariupol woman killed in first death since Ukraine truce http://yhoo.it/1tChRxy

There is first killed civilian in Mariupol pic.twitter.com/dFYHTv9y2P via @unian http://liveuamap.com/en/2014/7-september-there-is-first-killed-civilian-in--mariupol …


morning in #Mariupol after #russiaviolatedceasefire , vis @PAndrusieczko


Daria Sipigina ‏@DariaSipigina
Remains of last night's battle at the eastern checkpoint in #Mariupol.


Heavy machine gun&artillery fire a few hundred y: from us in #Donetsk airport as citizens blithely cross road

More explosions at #Donetsk airport just now. Sounded like rocket fire - @paulrbrennan | EMPR News #Ukraine #russiaviolatedceasefire

Daria Sipigina ‏@DariaSipigina
NOW: #Mariupol under attack - heavy smoke, tanks, APCs and an ambulance on the main road towards #Novoazovsk

As a result of night shelling of a checkpoint on entry to #Mariupol 1servicemen injured, 1civilian killed http://marsovet.org.ua/news/show/id/6915 …



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw50qBhCIAA8X5j.jpg:large

MT @press_dnr: Armed forces of Novorossiya are taking #Mariupol https://twitter.com/press_dnr/status/508359309621985280 … #russiaviolatedceasefire





Interior minister Arsen #Avakov writes #Russia shelled #Ukraine 16 times with Grad today from Russian territory, during ceasefire

#Ukraine Ceasefire Breached: Shelling in #Mariupol and #Donetsk shatters the shaky truce http://youtu.be/atEhth8eyPw  - @uatodaytv

[Paya]

You never seen the effects of a big(ish) high explosive shell I guess.

Pagan and his neverending stream of copy-pasted lies, misinformations and wishful interpretations... Please don't bite on his infantile propaganda.

Poor fellow hanging on the wires was catapulted from the exploding IFV nearby, that's the whole truth. And on that picture posted on previous page is just a rebel walking by the dead enemy fighter: aftermath of the clash between rebels and batallion 'Aidar' roughly two hours before the truce has begun. Ukrainian mercenaries suffered heavy losses and there were some captives taken too. Short combat footage of this event:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGWVGAIUL0

[samaricanin]

It is clear,they will be tried in The Hague for war crimes against own people