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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806361 times)
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March 10, 2015, 08:53:11 PM
 #21881

embedding the hash of UTXO in the block headers and retaining only the last few hundred blocks is being experimented with as a client option.
screw that, i want direct access to a copy of the entire blockchain at all times. 
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March 10, 2015, 09:06:08 PM
 #21882

another ramp in dollar starting right now.  look out risk assets...
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March 10, 2015, 09:38:08 PM
 #21883

...
Recording all transactions that have happened is done because that's the easiest way to generate the proof, not because storing that kind of history is the purpose of Bitcoin.

Well said.

embedding the hash of UTXO in the block headers and retaining only the last few hundred blocks is being experimented with as a client option.
The real trick will be figuring out a secure way of letting the entire network do it.

I don't think committed UTXO sets by themselves are sufficient.
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March 10, 2015, 09:46:11 PM
 #21884

...
Recording all transactions that have happened is done because that's the easiest way to generate the proof, not because storing that kind of history is the purpose of Bitcoin.

Well said.

embedding the hash of UTXO in the block headers and retaining only the last few hundred blocks is being experimented with as a client option.
The real trick will be figuring out a secure way of letting the entire network do it.

I don't think committed UTXO sets by themselves are sufficient.

what does "committed" mean in this sense?
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March 10, 2015, 09:57:11 PM
 #21885

...
Recording all transactions that have happened is done because that's the easiest way to generate the proof, not because storing that kind of history is the purpose of Bitcoin.

Well said.

embedding the hash of UTXO in the block headers and retaining only the last few hundred blocks is being experimented with as a client option.
The real trick will be figuring out a secure way of letting the entire network do it.

I don't think committed UTXO sets by themselves are sufficient.

what does "committed" mean in this sense?

Committed means mined into a block (not the whole set literally, just a hash of it)
molecular
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March 10, 2015, 10:13:42 PM
 #21886

...
Recording all transactions that have happened is done because that's the easiest way to generate the proof, not because storing that kind of history is the purpose of Bitcoin.

Well said.

embedding the hash of UTXO in the block headers and retaining only the last few hundred blocks is being experimented with as a client option.
The real trick will be figuring out a secure way of letting the entire network do it.

I don't think committed UTXO sets by themselves are sufficient.

I hadn't thought about this...

If a wrong UTXO hash would invalidate the block it should work, no? But then there's also incentive to omit it due to the risk of the block being rejected. Requiring it would be a hard fork? Is that the problem?

EDIT: found a good "in a nutshell" description: https://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/29/Pettycoin-Revisted-Part-I:-UTXO-Commitments.html

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
justusranvier
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March 10, 2015, 10:32:57 PM
 #21887

If the protocol was changed to require a valid UTXO set hash for a block to be considered valid, and if enough entities kept enough history to catch any cheating before its too late it should probably work.

Tricky part is finding the right values of "enough."
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March 10, 2015, 10:47:38 PM
 #21888

another ramp in dollar starting right now.  look out risk assets...

more deflation, bad for gold.....until US doesn't raise rates.
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March 10, 2015, 10:53:09 PM
 #21889

another ramp in dollar starting right now.  look out risk assets...

more deflation, bad for gold.....until US doesn't raise rates.

Gold price is rising currently, along with US$. Not uncommon, just an unholy alliance, albeit temporary, I assume.

My signature area is for sale!
PM me if you are interested in renting it.
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March 10, 2015, 10:58:28 PM
 #21890

Requiring it would be a hard fork? Is that the problem?

Requiring anything can be done with a soft fork. If >50% (preferably well over 50%) of miners require it then all blocks will have it.

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March 10, 2015, 11:24:53 PM
 #21891

Dow -333 smackdown:


Volatility increasing...  when was the last time there was a -333 or more?  Biggest (closing) drop I recall in a while.   
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March 10, 2015, 11:39:00 PM
 #21892

actually it is most likely a mining ASIC application, the first mining outfit to effectively deploy decentralized ASIC hardware and find a value proposition for the 100% efficient heat generation will clean up in the mining space.

21e6 are designing ASICs, so you'd expect them to get into mining supply and mining. But surely it makes sense for them to use some of that capital to directly buy BTC reserves.
There is zero reason to invest >$100M to make mining ASICs at this point. Too many options already exist and the market is largely saturated.
I wouldn't be so sure of that......

Just look at Bitfury who are raising money like it's nothing every other month.

At this point we have several designs already developed on modern sub 30nm nodes that are approximately close to the maximum efficiency we can expect (an SHA core is not complicated) and offer granularity down to 1, 2 or 3 Watts per chip.

If you are planning to build products to decentralize mining (think space heaters, etc that mine) starting with the current chips available is a good starting place, and using your money towards the other productization aspects makes the most sense.

The economics of the ASICS and the semicon industry are such that it only makes sense to develop a new chip it is significantly better than any other alternatives in terms of features/specs, or it is only marginally better but you have very high 100 million unit volumes to support the investment.

Otherwise it always makes more sense to save the several 10s of millions of NRE and use an existing off the shelf part. People that ignore this have gotten burned again and again, it's why the ASIC industry today is much smaller than it was before. Source: I have many many years of experience in the ASIC and semicon industry, have seen countless designs that never came close to a positive return, and have seen numerous businesses that ignore this fail and exit the industry....

I'm not saying there isn't an ASIC development gold rush still going on, I just personally would stay far away from the investment rounds, very far away.
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March 10, 2015, 11:49:17 PM
 #21893

Dow -333 smackdown:


Volatility increasing...  when was the last time there was a -333 or more?  Biggest (closing) drop I recall in a while.   

Plunge patrol is missing because they are at alltime highs Smiley
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March 11, 2015, 12:04:30 AM
 #21894

There is zero reason to invest >$100M to make mining ASICs at this point. Too many options already exist and the market is largely saturated.

A $100 million funding round does not mean they are spending $100 million on mining ASICs, even assuming they are making mining ASICs. That may be just one thing they are investing in, or the valuation numbers for whatever they have proposed may work out that for investors to get the sort of meaningful stake they want $100 million has to go in. In the latter case the company may have no idea whatsoever what they want to do with the $100 million to her than treat it as a war chest.
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March 11, 2015, 12:15:47 AM
 #21895

...
Recording all transactions that have happened is done because that's the easiest way to generate the proof, not because storing that kind of history is the purpose of Bitcoin.

Well said.

embedding the hash of UTXO in the block headers and retaining only the last few hundred blocks is being experimented with as a client option.
The real trick will be figuring out a secure way of letting the entire network do it.

I don't think committed UTXO sets by themselves are sufficient.

I hadn't thought about this...

If a wrong UTXO hash would invalidate the block it should work, no? But then there's also incentive to omit it due to the risk of the block being rejected. Requiring it would be a hard fork? Is that the problem?

EDIT: found a good "in a nutshell" description: https://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/29/Pettycoin-Revisted-Part-I:-UTXO-Commitments.html

I've been a believer in UTXO commits for a while, it moves bitcoin nodes towards being maintainers of the current ledger instead of maintainers of every transaction in human history. The current ledger is arguably the useful aspect, there might be some value to the total history but we haven't seen it yet.

One way to make this work is to add a dedicated hash of the UTXO set to each block (this does not need to be in the header, it could follow the coinbase as a special transaction). The UTXO set would have to be in a deterministic order obviously.

With each block, the mining node would include a hash of the UTXO set that is valid for that block. Every P2P node would validate this hash against their UTXO set, which should match. Mined blocks with an invalid UTXO hash would be rejected by the network. Mined blocks with an accepted UTXO by the network could be trusted.

Today, to join the P2P network a full node needs to download:
1) The full history of every block

With a hash of the UTXO set, to join the P2P network a full node only needs to download:
1) The headers since genesis (small/easy)
2) The most recent full block
3) The UTXO set as of the most recent block, which is validated against the block's UTXO hash

That node would now have all the information needed to participate and fully validate new transactions and blocks. Any new transaction will either use inputs from the "starting" UTXO set (which has been validated) or inputs in new blocks that were generated.

For attacks, if you took control of the majority of nodes and majority of mining power, it might be possible to introduce an incorrect UTXO set and then have everyone blindly use that going forward. But this would be completely visible to anyone on the network at the time that I don't see how a successful attack would work. In addition the "full chain" would always be available to validate against, you could think of bitcoin having a few archival nodes with the full chain stored for prosperity.
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March 11, 2015, 12:43:32 AM
 #21896

Well, this a big deal. Remember when it was just her husband?:

**Blythe Masters joins bitcoin start-up**

> Blythe Masters, the former JPMorgan executive who helped pioneer credit derivatives in the 1990s, has re-emerged as chief executive of a cryptocurrency start-up.

> Digital Asset Holdings aims to be a venue for buyers and sellers of financial assets to meet and transact, switching currencies into bitcoin in order to cut the cost and time of settlement and make use of the decentralised “block chain” as a secure record of transactions.

> Bitcoin was created in the wake of the financial crisis by an anonymous computer scientist keen to displace central banks, government currencies and the traditional banking system.

> Its most ardent devotees include libertarians and drug dealers, but financial services companies are interested in exploiting the underlying technology, which allows the ownership of a bitcoin to be transferred from one user to another.

> “There is a school of libertarian ‘visionaries’ who want to imagine a world without big banks, big governments,” said Ms Masters, who left JPMorgan last April. “That’s nice, but completely irrelevant to this business model. We don’t imagine a world in which big banks and big governments don’t exist.”

> “They say they want the world to change, but the world will change by adopting new technology to do a better job,” she said. Reducing the frictional costs of financial transactions is “one of the great challenges of our time”.

> Ms Masters said she had held discussions with the Federal Reserve, the Bank of England and New York’s Department of Financial Services about the venture, though it would not need regulators’ blessing because it was not an exchange, a custodian or a money transmitter.

> Instead, it will admit creditworthy members — such as big banks and asset managers — to trade between themselves using DAH’s technology.

> Ms Masters would not say how much she had invested, nor when the venture would launch. DAH was founded last year by Sunil Hirani, founder and chief executive of trueEX, an exchange for interest rate swaps, and Don Wilson, founder and CEO of DRW Trading, a proprietary-trading firm. The venture has employees in New York, Chicago and Tel Aviv, a cryptocurrency hub.

> Ms Masters, 45, is best known for a diverse career at JPMorgan, where she was instrumental in the development of the credit default swaps market as a young banker. Latterly she was head of the global commodities business and left when the bank sold it last year for $3.5bn.

> In a research note on Tuesday, Goldman Sachs analysts noted that “bitcoin and cryptocurrencies allow for the decentralised transfer of assets without a central clearing authority”. They predicted that the technology could wipe out 20 per cent of the revenue the money transfer industry makes from consumer-to-consumer currency transfers and allow companies to cut $74bn in overheads from businesses-to-business payments over time.

> A handful of existing companies, including Ripple Labs, are attempting to achieve the same aim, though all have different technology.

> “We feel that some of the basic plumbing is missing in the system,” said Mr Wilson of DRW. “Bridging the gap between bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies and traditional currencies is a problem. One settles immediately. One settles over a day or more than a day. Participants in this ecosystem will be able to control who they’re transacting with because it’s within a closed system where we can control who’s in the pool.”

> Banks have an ambivalent attitude towards bitcoin — intrigued by the technology but concerned about its negative associations.

> BBVA, the large Spanish bank, has invested in Coinbase, a bitcoin “wallet”. But other banks have stopped providing services to bitcoin companies, citing their riskiness. Daniel Masters, ex-husband of Blythe, complained last year that his regulated bitcoin investment fund had been cut off by HSBC.
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March 11, 2015, 01:09:38 AM
 #21897

Well, this a big deal. Remember when it was just her husband?:

**Blythe Masters joins bitcoin start-up**

.....

“There is a school of libertarian ‘visionaries’ who want to imagine a world without big banks, big governments,” said Ms Masters, who left JPMorgan last April. “That’s nice, but completely irrelevant to this business model. We don’t imagine a world in which big banks and big governments don’t exist.

This Blythe Masters?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-10/blythe-masters-under-investigation-federal-prosecutors

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-07/blythe-masters-withdraws-cftc-furious-twitter-backlash-blamed
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March 11, 2015, 01:32:47 AM
 #21898

Well, this a big deal. Remember when it was just her husband?:

**Blythe Masters joins bitcoin start-up**

.....

“There is a school of libertarian ‘visionaries’ who want to imagine a world without big banks, big governments,” said Ms Masters, who left JPMorgan last April. “That’s nice, but completely irrelevant to this business model. We don’t imagine a world in which big banks and big governments don’t exist.

This Blythe Masters?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-10/blythe-masters-under-investigation-federal-prosecutors

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-07/blythe-masters-withdraws-cftc-furious-twitter-backlash-blamed


Yes, THE Blythe Masters. That chick is notorious for JPM manipulation.
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March 11, 2015, 02:17:17 AM
 #21899

Well, this a big deal. Remember when it was just her husband?:

**Blythe Masters joins bitcoin start-up**

.....

“There is a school of libertarian ‘visionaries’ who want to imagine a world without big banks, big governments,” said Ms Masters, who left JPMorgan last April. “That’s nice, but completely irrelevant to this business model. We don’t imagine a world in which big banks and big governments don’t exist.

This Blythe Masters?
...

Masters and cypherdoc are like two peas in a pod in this respect.

Druggies and Libertarians get all the glory in Bitcoinland, but since before I got involved the market manipulators of Masters's class have had a giant footprint.  Probably bigger than any other would be my guess.  This little tid-bit was apparent from one of the many hacks which resulted in the loss of privacy and the note that various of the participant were logging in from work at their Wall Street firms.  And from simple observations of the market, the regulatory bodies, the media, etc.  It really makes perfect sense in a system where there is some money to be made, a dearth of pesky regulation, and a barrier to privacy subversion which walls out most entities abilities to penetrate.  This made Bitcoin, to me, a likely place to make some money as long as I had the patience to match those who have the resources to play for keeps.  I've always been prepared to laugh off little year or two machinations since I would expect them in a market such as Bitcoin.


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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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March 11, 2015, 02:31:57 AM
 #21900

Digital Asset Holdings aims to be a venue for buyers and sellers of financial assets to meet and transact, switching currencies into bitcoin in order to cut the cost and time of settlement and make use of the decentralised “block chain” as a secure record of transactions.

Its most ardent devotees include libertarians and drug dealers, but financial services companies are interested in exploiting the underlying technology, which allows the ownership of a bitcoin to be transferred from one user to another.

Ms Masters said she had held discussions with the Federal Reserve, the Bank of England and New York’s Department of Financial Services about the venture, though it would not need regulators’ blessing because it was not an exchange, a custodian or a money transmitter.

Instead, it will admit creditworthy members — such as big banks and asset managers — to trade between themselves using DAH’s technology.

wow

this and the 21.inc news has me so bullish.

we are going to see an absolute deluge of innovation and capital setting up to move into Bitcoin this year.

I'm afraid the transition will be swift and perhaps quicker than most everyone expects. It's gonna take balls of steel to ride this market.

bring it on


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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