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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1905866 times)
79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
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March 26, 2015, 05:04:19 AM
 #22281

i'd be interested. 
http://www.mediafire.com/view/aql2lsu7713pq55/nash_ideal_money.pdf
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March 26, 2015, 05:14:54 AM
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The published piece to read would be: 'Ideal Money', John F. Nash, Jr.,  Southern Economic Journal, Vol. 69, No. 1 (Jul., 2002), pp. 4-11.

If someone can't get access and has a public repository where I can put a copy, I'd be glad to.

As for Nash being Satoshi ... very doubtful (the incomprehensible video starts with: "Bitcoin might not be it ... but gold or silver ..."). But he, like Hayek before him, has been talking about a nationless currency whose supply is outside of political control.

i'd not heard this one before today:  Satoshi Nakamoto = IAmNash sato koto

interesting...

Yup.. and also Szabo is a word in Chinese spelled Nash backwards or something.

He talks about ideal currency and hints that USD with central bank inflation targetting is ideal but not really ideal...just good enough for now because there is no alternative and smart money is searching for the asymptotically ideal currency which offers a better more stable token based on non political control over supply... hello proof of work (owing debt) based on the efficiency of energy can't get a better source of a commodity that can't be manipulated. Unless you can create free energy, proof of work will always be worth atleast the amount of energy put into it (although it doesn't right now because of speculative pressures).

and it's more than just the electricity + hardware that a gvt would have to overcome.  there's the unfactored costs related to sweat equity, entrepreneurship, and ancillary supplies put into mining.  take my word for it, there are numerous cables, heatsinks, extra power supplies, risers, racks, AC, fans, etc that need to be bought and assembled.  there's the knowledge factor of programming all that hardware to maximum efficiency.  and all the time and frustration.  i have a busy day job yet i was willing to put in the time at night and on weekends to get my hardware up and running.  and that doesn't count the problems that take more time troubleshooting or going in on weekends.  that's all voluntary and uncompensated when doing the calculations for ROI.

i'll tell you what drives that; the profit motive.  massive profit motive as we've seen since 2011.  mining BTC with expectations that they will increase in value as digital gold and possibly as a replacement reserve currency.  how many gvt workers would be willing to put in all that time and effort towards launching a 51% attack?  answer:  none.  many of them probably own some BTC and would be somewhat reluctant.  and this doesn't account for Bitcoin miners holding some hashrate back to protect against such an attack.  i'm holding back an admittedly smallish 2TH/s to bring online in case of an emergency.  how many others are doing the same?  anyone who wants to attack the network better factor in at least another 50% HR in costs if they dare do such a thing.  

and if Gavin is right about stuffing such an attack quickly and easily, who's gonna take the blame for wasting $100M of taxpayer money or whatever the # is?  there is such a thing as suing the federal gvt that needs to be considered as well if they mess with private property outside the law.
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March 26, 2015, 05:28:51 AM
 #22283

well isn't that purdy.  all that talk about the Bitnodes Incentive Program and that cool new Bitnode plug & play:

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March 26, 2015, 06:50:19 AM
 #22284

well isn't that purdy.  all that talk about the Bitnodes Incentive Program and that cool new Bitnode plug & play:



could be suspicious  Huh

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30ay6u/almost_10_more_full_nodes_since_this_morning/cpquf15?context=3


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That's odd: all 600+ new nodes came online with the user agent "/Satoshi:0.10.99/Gangnam Style:v4.01"
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March 26, 2015, 07:16:26 AM
 #22285

The published piece to read would be: 'Ideal Money', John F. Nash, Jr.,  Southern Economic Journal, Vol. 69, No. 1 (Jul., 2002), pp. 4-11.

If someone can't get access and has a public repository where I can put a copy, I'd be glad to.

As for Nash being Satoshi ... very doubtful (the incomprehensible video starts with: "Bitcoin might not be it ... but gold or silver ..."). But he, like Hayek before him, has been talking about a nationless currency whose supply is outside of political control.

i'd be interested.  look likes their a paywall...

It's not a paywall it's the paywall. The one that Aaron Swartz had tried to unlock with an act of civil disobedience that unfortunately had cost him his own life.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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March 26, 2015, 08:35:07 AM
 #22286

well isn't that purdy.  all that talk about the Bitnodes Incentive Program and that cool new Bitnode plug & play:



could be suspicious  Huh

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30ay6u/almost_10_more_full_nodes_since_this_morning/cpquf15?context=3


Quote
That's odd: all 600+ new nodes came online with the user agent "/Satoshi:0.10.99/Gangnam Style:v4.01"

Could be a bunch of Bitseeds being tested.
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March 26, 2015, 09:42:04 AM
 #22287

well isn't that purdy.  all that talk about the Bitnodes Incentive Program and that cool new Bitnode plug & play:



could be suspicious  Huh

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/30ay6u/almost_10_more_full_nodes_since_this_morning/cpquf15?context=3


Quote
That's odd: all 600+ new nodes came online with the user agent "/Satoshi:0.10.99/Gangnam Style:v4.01"

Could be a bunch of Bitseeds being tested.

or another chainalysis.com in the making....

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
NotHatinJustTrollin
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March 26, 2015, 11:02:29 AM
 #22288

As for a financial company? The innovation of the blockchain (inseparable from bitcoin) is being increasingly acknowledged by all and sundry as a technological and financial breakthrough.  If it is anything like the internet revolution, we're talking multi trillion dollar economy. Just one company (AAPL) is poking through the $750bn mark.
It's "inseparable from bitcoin" only according to pyramid schemers like you.

Bitcoiners: "So we have this blockchain thing, it's a distributed ledger and it has potential but bitcoin is a necessary component, you are forced to adopt it if you want the blockchain"

Everybody else: "Ok, but we don't need this bitcoin currency, only drug dealers, paranoid libertards, scammers and ponzi speculators do"

Bitcoiners: "We don't care. You want the blockchain? You need to adopt bitcoin"

Everybody else: "Alright, then we will create a blockchain/consensus/distributed ledger thing that doesn't force people to adopt, use, and give a high value to a new currency they don't need. If it's a little centralized it's not a problem, cuz decentralization is for libertards."

Bitcoiners: "You can't. It's impossible™"

Everybody else:
http://www.newsbtc.com/2015/01/22/blockchain-things-bot-not-internet-things/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkYVc1YsGCc


More coming soon.
chriswen
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March 26, 2015, 11:03:52 AM
 #22289

Gold Up , Bitcoin Down.
NotHatinJustTrollin
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March 26, 2015, 11:10:19 AM
 #22290

The funny thing is that you proponents of the "omg errybody will use teh blokchain for these smart contracts things, bitcoin to the moon" don't realize that there have already been similar attempts to build services that use the Bitcoin blockchain but they have faced some serious resistance from Bitcoin core developers who consider this type of activity as “blockchain spam” and in some cases made attempts to block and inhibit these activities.

In the future nobody will use the *bitcoin* blockchain for these things.
Sorry.

Hint: VCs usually talk about the potential of "blockchain technology", not of the bitcoin blockchain or of the [insert your favorite scamcoin here] blockchain.


Bitcoin and shitcoins are technological dinosaurs. We all know what happened to dinosaurs amirite?


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March 26, 2015, 11:29:58 AM
 #22291

Everybody else: "Alright, then we will create a blockchain/consensus/distributed ledger thing that doesn't force people to adopt, use, and give a high value to a new currency they don't need. If it's a little centralized it's not a problem, cuz decentralization is for libertards."

Bitcoiners: "You can't. It's impossible™"


I don't think anyone said it was impossible if you are creating something that is centralized.

79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
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March 26, 2015, 12:23:11 PM
 #22292

Not impossible. Just utterly pointless.
79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
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March 26, 2015, 12:37:21 PM
 #22293

The published piece to read would be: 'Ideal Money', John F. Nash, Jr.,  Southern Economic Journal, Vol. 69, No. 1 (Jul., 2002), pp. 4-11.

If someone can't get access and has a public repository where I can put a copy, I'd be glad to.

As for Nash being Satoshi ... very doubtful (the incomprehensible video starts with: "Bitcoin might not be it ... but gold or silver ..."). But he, like Hayek before him, has been talking about a nationless currency whose supply is outside of political control.

i'd be interested.  look likes their a paywall...

It's not a paywall it's the paywall. The one that Aaron Swartz had tried to unlock with an act of civil disobedience that unfortunately had cost him his own life.

Exactly. Knowledge that has already been paid for, and whose only purpose for being generated is to be disseminated, reproduced and applied, is restricted and appropriated for profit. Hindering the advance of science and perpetuating epistemic unfairness across the globe.   

It is a scandal and an outrage.
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March 26, 2015, 01:05:02 PM
 #22294

Not impossible. Just utterly pointless.

Largely agree. The only reason I qualify it is I don't rule out some sort of unknown variation on the theme that makes it useful. I haven't seen that however.
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March 26, 2015, 01:47:33 PM
 #22295

Exactly. Knowledge that has already been paid for, and whose only purpose for being generated is to be disseminated, reproduced and applied, is restricted and appropriated for profit. Hindering the advance of science and perpetuating epistemic unfairness across the globe.  

It is a scandal and an outrage.

Intellectual property is a scam. But that's what you get when you start running out of tangible things to monetize in order to prevent your economy from exploding in an inflationary spiral of doom because it is based on the presumption of infinite exponential growth.

Not even the most deluded bitcoin bulltard assumes bitcoin is going to grow exponentially forever yet we are asked to believe this about the global economy at large.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
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March 26, 2015, 02:51:01 PM
 #22296

Intellectual property is a scam.
Let's just remember that, in the present case, neither Nash nor the SEJ nor Princeton are making a penny for the paywalling of the article. Monies go to Wiley Publishers, who did not pay the author, edit the journal, or referee the article. They simply put it in their database.
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March 26, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
 #22297

Intellectual property is a scam.
Let's just remember that, in the present case, neither Nash nor the SEJ nor Princeton are making a penny for the paywalling of the article. Monies go to Wiley Publishers, who did not pay the author, edit the journal or referee the article, but simply put it in their database.
Wiley does have a shitty paywall though. Just type in the header of the article through google scholar and then click on the "download pdf" button in the right column without accessing the website. There you go.   
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March 26, 2015, 03:20:20 PM
 #22298

The published piece to read would be: 'Ideal Money', John F. Nash, Jr.,  Southern Economic Journal, Vol. 69, No. 1 (Jul., 2002), pp. 4-11.

If someone can't get access and has a public repository where I can put a copy, I'd be glad to.

As for Nash being Satoshi ... very doubtful (the incomprehensible video starts with: "Bitcoin might not be it ... but gold or silver ..."). But he, like Hayek before him, has been talking about a nationless currency whose supply is outside of political control.

i'd not heard this one before today:  Satoshi Nakamoto = IAmNash sato koto

interesting...

Yup.. and also Szabo is a word in Chinese spelled Nash backwards or something.

He talks about ideal currency and hints that USD with central bank inflation targetting is ideal but not really ideal...just good enough for now because there is no alternative and smart money is searching for the asymptotically ideal currency which offers a better more stable token based on non political control over supply... hello proof of work (owing debt) based on the efficiency of energy can't get a better source of a commodity that can't be manipulated. Unless you can create free energy, proof of work will always be worth atleast the amount of energy put into it (although it doesn't right now because of speculative pressures).

and it's more than just the electricity + hardware that a gvt would have to overcome.  there's the unfactored costs related to sweat equity, entrepreneurship, and ancillary supplies put into mining.  take my word for it, there are numerous cables, heatsinks, extra power supplies, risers, racks, AC, fans, etc that need to be bought and assembled.  there's the knowledge factor of programming all that hardware to maximum efficiency.  and all the time and frustration.  i have a busy day job yet i was willing to put in the time at night and on weekends to get my hardware up and running.  and that doesn't count the problems that take more time troubleshooting or going in on weekends.  that's all voluntary and uncompensated when doing the calculations for ROI.

i'll tell you what drives that; the profit motive.  massive profit motive as we've seen since 2011.  mining BTC with expectations that they will increase in value as digital gold and possibly as a replacement reserve currency.  how many gvt workers would be willing to put in all that time and effort towards launching a 51% attack?  answer:  none.  many of them probably own some BTC and would be somewhat reluctant.  and this doesn't account for Bitcoin miners holding some hashrate back to protect against such an attack.  i'm holding back an admittedly smallish 2TH/s to bring online in case of an emergency.  how many others are doing the same?  anyone who wants to attack the network better factor in at least another 50% HR in costs if they dare do such a thing.  

and if Gavin is right about stuffing such an attack quickly and easily, who's gonna take the blame for wasting $100M of taxpayer money or whatever the # is?  there is such a thing as suing the federal gvt that needs to be considered as well if they mess with private property outside the law.
Im not talking about that its assumed govt cant control energy efficiency. Im talking about using it as an index like cpi to dtermine economy.. Rather than interest rate targeting done randomely it seems. Anyways it lines up well with the notion of work which requires energy.. When you pay someone you are transfering work for proof of work... Makes total sense, the amount someone is willing to exchange is the price which is determined by how expensive it is to mine a bitcoin.. Even as it becomes more efficient... There is incentive to increase efficiency in mining which becomes a power problem rather than an asic algo issue.. Kinda like silicon hitting its hard limits on cpus and now having to solve the real problem of making things smaller in electronics while decreasing power usage and increasing calculations per second...

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March 26, 2015, 06:04:15 PM
 #22299

Bitcoin and shitcoins are technological dinosaurs. We all know what happened to dinosaurs amirite?

The dinosaurs needed to lay their eggs in nests inaccessible to those pesky little mammals, so they evolved into birds.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004


Warning Dash is a planned instamine, it wasn't
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March 26, 2015, 10:45:55 PM
 #22300

Dearest NLC,

Quote
It's "inseparable from bitcoin" only according to pyramid schemers like you.

Bitcoiners: "So we have this blockchain thing, it's a "DECENTRALISED" distributed ledger and it has potential but bitcoin is a necessary component, you are forced to adopt it if you want the blockchain"

Everybody else: "Ok, but we don't need this bitcoin currency "I don't think anyone needs this bitcoin currency", only drug dealers, paranoid libertards, scammers and ponzi speculators do"

Bitcoiners: "We don't care. You want the blockchain? You need to adopt bitcoin"

Everybody else: "Alright, then we will create a blockchain/CONSENSUS/distributed ledger thing that doesn't force people to adopt, use, and give a high value to a new currency they don't need. If it's a little CENTRALIZED it's not a problem FOR ME, cuz I THINK decentralization is for libertards."

Bitcoiners: "You can't. It's impossible™"

Everybody else:
http://www.newsbtc.com/2015/01/22/blockchain-things-bot-not-internet-things/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkYVc1YsGCc


More coming soon.


Avoid being disingenuous by omitting relevant information.

Stop conflating your opinion with fact.
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