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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1996139 times)
Zangelbert Bingledack
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March 11, 2015, 04:43:08 PM
 #21901

Of course he'd act that way.

When he wanted the investor money, he had to build expectations of returns.

Now that he has the money, he wants to lower expectations of returns to preemptively shrink the size of the angry mob before it forms.

Ah, the old Angry Mob ManagementTM.
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March 11, 2015, 04:59:19 PM
 #21902

The trend seems to be tapering off, but it's still alive. Meanwhile Ethereum seems to be taking a "money doesn't matter"/"blockchains are a friggin' database technology" stance even after their huge crowdsale.
Of course he'd act that way.

When he wanted the investor money, he had to build expectations of returns.

Now that he has the money, he wants to lower expectations of returns to preemptively shrink the size of the angry mob before it forms.

Biggest legal (but unmoral) con in Bitcoin Land to date.  I will make something (or maybe not) and sell coins for BTC.  And database tech rocks -

19 year old kid might be able to code but has a long way to go to understand how the real world works.

Actually, Vitalik is smarter than all of you. All he has to do to make huge returns for Ethereum is go to the beach and do nothing with the 20k or so coins he's holding and watch them appreciate.

No, it did not take a genius to realize that a natural extension of Bitcoin is to make it Turing complete.  In fact, as soon as an engineer sees any language his next question is "how powerful is it?"  In fact, Satoshi's restraint is interesting in that context, especially his restraint on allowing the definition of other currencies.  I wonder if he felt that that feature would attract the eye of too many three letter agencies...

Its not intelligence but morality that restrains many of us. 

I don't sell (much) at the tops.  I don't want to be known as the guy who bilked lots of suckers out of $ if Bitcoin fails.  I want to be known as a guy who identified BTC's potential as a force for positive social change through economics early and invested accordingly.
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March 11, 2015, 05:16:19 PM
 #21903

Stocks up with dxy hmm

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March 11, 2015, 05:18:30 PM
 #21904

The trend seems to be tapering off, but it's still alive. Meanwhile Ethereum seems to be taking a "money doesn't matter"/"blockchains are a friggin' database technology" stance even after their huge crowdsale.
Of course he'd act that way.

When he wanted the investor money, he had to build expectations of returns.

Now that he has the money, he wants to lower expectations of returns to preemptively shrink the size of the angry mob before it forms.

Biggest legal (but unmoral) con in Bitcoin Land to date.  I will make something (or maybe not) and sell coins for BTC.  And database tech rocks -

19 year old kid might be able to code but has a long way to go to understand how the real world works.

Actually, Vitalik is smarter than all of you. All he has to do to make huge returns for Ethereum is go to the beach and do nothing with the 20k or so coins he's holding and watch them appreciate.

No, it did not take a genius to realize that a natural extension of Bitcoin is to make it Turing complete.  In fact, as soon as an engineer sees any language his next question is "how powerful is it?"  In fact, Satoshi's restraint is interesting in that context, especially his restraint on allowing the definition of other currencies.  I wonder if he felt that that feature would attract the eye of too many three letter agencies...

Its not intelligence but morality that restrains many of us. 

I don't sell (much) at the tops.  I don't want to be known as the guy who bilked lots of suckers out of $ if Bitcoin fails.  I want to be known as a guy who identified BTC's potential as a force for positive social change through economics early and invested accordingly.

I think he probably left it out due to complexity of thoroughly testing and left it up to the world to figure out.. If it has value do you think bitcoin can fork to introduce turing complete script ops?

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rocks
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March 11, 2015, 05:25:14 PM
 #21905

embedding the hash of UTXO in the block headers and retaining only the last few hundred blocks is being experimented with as a client option.

Good to know.

screw that, i want direct access to a copy of the entire blockchain at all times.  

No one will deny you that access on an open network should you wish it ... destruction of tx history has a myriad of benefits, and risks (that can be mitigated).

Yes. The power of Bitcoin is enhanced by in-built flexibility. Many nodes will always have and always want the full blockchain, many will be happier with the UTXO set secured by hashes in the main-chain, and many users will be OK with SPV only.

Just because alternative models are available, and can work concurrently with earlier implementations, does not mean everyone jumps ship to one model.

This is exactly why I like UTXO hashes embedded in blocks. It does not preclude nodes from performing full chain scans, it simply extends and provides additional mechanisms to participate in the P2P network.

With UTXO hashes you could think of bitcoin extending to 3 types of nodes, where today we only have two. They would be:

1) SPV clients - Light-clients, do not protect/valid network, protect own private keys only
2) Full nodes - Full participants on P2P network, protect and valid the current ledger only (which is all that is needed to be a node)
3) Archival nodes - Full participants on P2P network, protect and valid the full historical journal (as Marcus called it)

UTXO hashes would enable many more people to participate as P2P nodes and actively add protection to the current ledger. This does not stop several archival nodes from existing who would act as maintainers of the historical journal for prosperity and validation.

By creating this division more people/nodes can participate which improves bitcoin's security.
Zangelbert Bingledack
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March 11, 2015, 05:47:36 PM
 #21906

Meanwhile, US Dollar Index is about to cross 100.
thezerg
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March 11, 2015, 07:02:56 PM
 #21907

The trend seems to be tapering off, but it's still alive. Meanwhile Ethereum seems to be taking a "money doesn't matter"/"blockchains are a friggin' database technology" stance even after their huge crowdsale.
Of course he'd act that way.

When he wanted the investor money, he had to build expectations of returns.

Now that he has the money, he wants to lower expectations of returns to preemptively shrink the size of the angry mob before it forms.

Biggest legal (but unmoral) con in Bitcoin Land to date.  I will make something (or maybe not) and sell coins for BTC.  And database tech rocks -

19 year old kid might be able to code but has a long way to go to understand how the real world works.

Actually, Vitalik is smarter than all of you. All he has to do to make huge returns for Ethereum is go to the beach and do nothing with the 20k or so coins he's holding and watch them appreciate.

No, it did not take a genius to realize that a natural extension of Bitcoin is to make it Turing complete.  In fact, as soon as an engineer sees any language his next question is "how powerful is it?"  In fact, Satoshi's restraint is interesting in that context, especially his restraint on allowing the definition of other currencies.  I wonder if he felt that that feature would attract the eye of too many three letter agencies...

Its not intelligence but morality that restrains many of us. 

I don't sell (much) at the tops.  I don't want to be known as the guy who bilked lots of suckers out of $ if Bitcoin fails.  I want to be known as a guy who identified BTC's potential as a force for positive social change through economics early and invested accordingly.

I think he probably left it out due to complexity of thoroughly testing and left it up to the world to figure out.. If it has value do you think bitcoin can fork to introduce turing complete script ops?

Right and also to emphasize the rarity of btc.  And so the system doesn't smell too strongly of a method to issue unregulated securities.  But the real problem is not turning complete but getting data to run the program on.  Or more accurately getting trust free consensus on input data.  If you use an oracle to supply the data that oracle might as well just execute the algorithm.   Data like the cost of btc in usd or who won the superbowl.  I know how to do the former but not the latter.
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March 11, 2015, 10:54:19 PM
 #21908

Quote
I think he probably left it out due to complexity of thoroughly testing and left it up to the world to figure out.. If it has value do you think bitcoin can fork to introduce turing complete script ops?

Full Turing complete scripting can easily be done on a sidechain, in fact it will most likely be one of the first implementations, i.e. a next gen 'ethereum' sidechain, without the Appcoin necessitating wonky economic justifactions.

BTW: Vitalik is not in charge of the treasury over at ethereum, he's just a useful starry-eyed wunder-kid genius front guy ... the truth is stranger than fiction.

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March 11, 2015, 11:14:16 PM
 #21909

Unless CBs drop Gold as an asset in their vaults, it will be relevant in the future. Either the real economy will catch up with the financial economy, or the financial economy will meet the real economy or a combination), eventually.

But the waiting is the hardest part. No panic, no gold rush.

Ron Paul and others wonder just how much gold exists in that very Feds vault. 

We may find out that the US government sold bitcoin near the bottom (US Marshals auctions) and bought (or at least held) gold near the top.  Typical

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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March 11, 2015, 11:28:48 PM
 #21910

Unless CBs drop Gold as an asset in their vaults, it will be relevant in the future. Either the real economy will catch up with the financial economy, or the financial economy will meet the real economy or a combination), eventually.

But the waiting is the hardest part. No panic, no gold rush.

Ron Paul and others wonder just how much gold exists in that very Feds vault. 

We may find out that the US government sold bitcoin near the bottom (US Marshals auctions) and bought (or at least held) gold near the top.  Typical

The Browns Bottom equivalent?
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March 12, 2015, 12:01:06 AM
 #21911

Actually, Vitalik is smarter than all of you. All he has to do to make huge returns for Ethereum is go to the beach and do nothing with the 20k or so coins he's holding and watch them appreciate.

And sell out to Oracle for a giant pile of fiat.


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March 12, 2015, 12:17:13 AM
 #21912

Meanwhile, US Dollar Index is about to cross 100.
Looks toppish to me. Two important levels 100 (psychological) and 101.50.
Expect a correction from there. Gold doesn't look that bad so far.

this space is intentionally left blank
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March 12, 2015, 12:22:15 AM
 #21913

Meanwhile, US Dollar Index is about to cross 100.
Looks toppish to me. Two important levels 100 (psychological) and 101.50.
Expect a correction from there. Gold doesn't look that bad so far.

Looks topish? lol check the monthly.. its prob about half way through

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March 12, 2015, 01:40:09 AM
 #21914

Keynes, a homo sex maniac:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/john-maynard-keynes-new-biography-reveals-shocking-details-about-the-economists-sex-life-10101971.html

It is quite amusing.

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March 12, 2015, 03:56:13 AM
 #21915

...

No, it did not take a genius to realize that a natural extension of Bitcoin is to make it Turing complete.  In fact, as soon as an engineer sees any language his next question is "how powerful is it?"  In fact, Satoshi's restraint is interesting in that context, especially his restraint on allowing the definition of other currencies.  I wonder if he felt that that feature would attract the eye of too many three letter agencies...
...



Interesting - thanks for posting. I always assumed that all of those initial-state decisions had been made *before* Satoshi posted the whitepaper. I guess because of that comment he made in that list thread to the effect of "I'm almost ready to post the code."

He *was* just about ready to post the code.  This was a debate about what value an already-defined constant ought to have.  In fact I've already posted an archive of his code from just a few *days* later in another thread here for historical interest. 

Hal and I were essentially giving it a last-minute looking over to see if we thought there was any way to attack it.  I have the impression that Hal communicated with Satoshi a lot more than I did, but he was looking at a  much tougher problem.  The blockchain structure is essentially a mathematical proof -- very straightforward, you follow it and you can say with reasonable certainty that it's right or not.  But a scripting language is generative.  And generative structures present exponentially more attack surfaces. 

Re Finney - if he was blocking bitcoin op-codes, I wonder what he would've thought of Ethereum's scripting lang. Smiley

You're kidding right?  Ethereum's scripting language is limited only by the amount of steps it will run a calculation.  Hal would have pitched a fit about the Denial-of-Service possibilities.

(and I had to ask if you were Ray cuz your early posts on here were signed "Edward")

Yeah, I made up a fake person because at first I didn't want people here to know who I was.  I was kind of afraid they'd get freaky about it.




Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
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March 12, 2015, 05:38:58 AM
 #21916

Bitcoin has all the properties of a super money that gold can only aspire to be.  That has to be on your radar.

Bitcoin is literally at a fork.  One path leads to super-gold, the other leads to yet another forgettable/replaceable retail token.

In the most likely scenario, competing camps take both forks and mutual hostility/drama/lulz ensure (as usual).

Have you weighed in on the blocksize debate?  I'd rather have sidechains than 20MB++ gigablocks, and am curious where you stand ATM.



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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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March 12, 2015, 05:41:39 AM
 #21917

I'd rather have sidechains than 20MB++ gigablocks, and am curious where you stand ATM.



Please enlighten us all why you rather have SCs.


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March 12, 2015, 05:53:50 AM
 #21918

I'd rather have sidechains than 20MB++ gigablocks, and am curious where you stand ATM.



Please enlighten us all why you rather have SCs.


I'm not a huge fan of side chains yet, but Bitcoin's Grandfather (Adam Back) and a couple of other notables participating in this thread have done a lot to convince me they won't be the end of the world and may ameliorate pressure to adopt Gavin's Bloatchain proposal.

Doc's economic attack via free options still worries me, but I have faith antifragility win out in the end.

OTOH, 20MB blocks would destroy TOR, etc. compatibility and poke holes in our beautifully small (defensible/diffuse/resilient) network, which is the vehicle for BTC's antifragility.

Sorry I can't be more specific and impressively techie!   Tongue

What's your take on the matter, old bean?


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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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March 12, 2015, 06:31:07 AM
 #21919

I'd rather have sidechains than 20MB++ gigablocks, and am curious where you stand ATM.



Please enlighten us all why you rather have SCs.


I'm not a huge fan of side chains yet, but Bitcoin's Grandfather (Adam Back) and a couple of other notables participating in this thread have done a lot to convince me they won't be the end of the world and may ameliorate pressure to adopt Gavin's Bloatchain proposal.

Doc's economic attack via free options still worries me, but I have faith antifragility win out in the end.

OTOH, 20MB blocks would destroy TOR, etc. compatibility and poke holes in our beautifully small (defensible/diffuse/resilient) network, which is the vehicle for BTC's antifragility.

Sorry I can't be more specific and impressively techie!   Tongue

What's your take on the matter, old bean?

It isn't the 20MB block size that scares me, it is the automatic doubling every two years until we reach 20GB blocks. This scares the crap out of me because if a problem turns up we need a fork to pause the scaling. Would much rather see a series of independent increases that we take in steps.
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March 12, 2015, 06:56:59 AM
 #21920

$400 seems a reasonable short term target.

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