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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1807316 times)
iCEBREAKER
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July 25, 2015, 08:57:26 PM
 #29321

Quote
Multiple Choice Question:
Do you see bitcoin in the future as:
A) a scaling peer to peer network with ultra cheap transactions, for anyone globally to use, with bitcoin functioning as internet cash, avoiding financial intermediaries or banks.
B) a settlement layer for banks, fin tech companies and early adopters, with a low volume expensive to transact upon blockchain

C) all of the above, and more

It's a trick question (false dilemma fallacy), because of the duality of big-B Bitcoin (the first successful e-cash implementation) and small-b bitcoin (blockchain technology).

Small-b bitcoin has already forked, in the form of alts, so as to ensure ultra cheap p2p global tx for all mankind.

Big-B Bitcoin, still in its early life cycle, is in the phase where it distinguishs itself and diverges  from Bitcoin-like blockchains, on the way to becoming the (ultra-secure, expensive, low volume) Mother of All settlement layers and global reserve e-cash.

The commonplace category error plaguing us at the moment results from failing to recognize this bifurcation (and reading Satoshi's Whitepaper in that context), or refusing to countenance the existence of alts (IE small-b bitcoin) because of some nutty Maximalist Monopolist Fundamentalist Supremacist ideological stance.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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iCEBREAKER
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July 25, 2015, 09:09:21 PM
 #29322

PLease explain how bitcoin will proceed over the next few years with the blocksize fixed at 1mb and continue to be successful Odalv.

Already been explained.  It's called "scaling."

http://cointelegraph.com/news/114945/lightning-network-could-strike-sooner-than-expected

So we'll soon have additional tps capacity in the forms of:

-Sidechains on Mainchain

-Sidechains on Altchains

-Lightning on Mainchain

-Lightning on Altchains

-Lightning on Sidechains(Mainchain)

-Lightning on Sidechains(Altchains)

So much for the 'capacity crunch.'   Smiley

Pro tip: bloating is not scaling, bloating is just more of the same (only with negative marginal return).

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
inca
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July 25, 2015, 09:12:36 PM
 #29323

Quote
Multiple Choice Question:
Do you see bitcoin in the future as:
A) a scaling peer to peer network with ultra cheap transactions, for anyone globally to use, with bitcoin functioning as internet cash, avoiding financial intermediaries or banks.
B) a settlement layer for banks, fin tech companies and early adopters, with a low volume expensive to transact upon blockchain

C) all of the above, and more

It's a trick question (false dilemma fallacy), because of the duality of big-B Bitcoin (the first successful e-cash implementation) and small-b bitcoin (blockchain technology).

Small-b bitcoin has already forked, in the form of alts, so as to ensure ultra cheap p2p global tx for all mankind.

Big-B Bitcoin, still in its early life cycle, is in the phase where it distinguishs itself and diverges  from Bitcoin-like blockchains, on the way to becoming the (ultra-secure, expensive, low volume) Mother of All settlement layers and global reserve e-cash.

The commonplace category error plaguing us at the moment results from failing to recognize this bifurcation (and reading Satoshi's Whitepaper in that context), or refusing to countenance the existence of alts (IE small-b bitcoin) because of some nutty Maximalist Monopolist Fundamentalist Supremacist ideological stance.

Unless you expect bitcoin to have hundreds of sidechains (not altcoins) performing 'ultra cheap p2p global tx for all mankind' then your argument is flawed.

The bitcoin chain only has value because it is first and because people expect it to retain (or increase) it's value in the future through increased (or continuing) adoption. Early adopters might not see that this is a problem if bitcoin remains limited or crippled by a small blocksize but to those of us who just missed that early boat and joined the party in 2013 or later it is an issue. The reason being that to all non-early adopters the speculative value of bitcoin over alternate blockchains is based in part upon the expectation of a significantly growing userbase and ultimately exchange price of each bitcoin. If it becomes clear that bitcoin is not going to scale or remain the cheapest blockchain out there for new users then it won't just be new users who migrate to alternate chains, it will be the value that early adopters enjoy currently, too.

Edit: Pro-tip: lightning is vapour currently so wind your neck in..
iCEBREAKER
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July 25, 2015, 09:26:56 PM
 #29324

Small blocks equal small minds.

Small is beautiful.  Small is defensible.

Quote
The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

We will not allow Bitcoin to succumb to cheap bloating attacks and lazy slouching towards the negative marginal returns, and inevitable extinction, of gigantism.

A comet will eventually hit Planet Bitcoin.  When that happens it needs to still be a nimble mammal, not a bloated dinosaur.

LOL, your 6 SX nodes are 6% of their total and a mighty 1.55% of the network!

Fear the wrath of the Gavinistas!   Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Erdogan
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July 25, 2015, 09:33:46 PM
 #29325

Converted to 0.10.2 XT. Eagerly awaiting the largeblocks version.


I have 6 nodes ready and waiting.

how much does it cost you per node per month?

also, i asked before but you missed it... where are you getting those hash rate distribution graphs from? they dont match up with blockchain.info and others.


No idea, not much. I have an i7, 12GB machine bought a few years ago, and a 25/25 Mb/s fiber to the home. The node runs in the background, I hardly notice it.
Erdogan
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July 25, 2015, 09:36:59 PM
 #29326

Small blocks equal small minds.

lol, small blocks equal smart minds.   (contrary big and stupid)

Small blocks, small dicks.
iCEBREAKER
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July 25, 2015, 09:41:55 PM
 #29327

Small blocks equal small minds.

lol, small blocks equal smart minds.   (contrary big and stupid)

Small blocks, small dicks.


Does your mom know you're staying up late and sneaking on to her laptop just to act like a jackass?

Here son, have a clue:

Quote
The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Erdogan
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July 25, 2015, 09:45:14 PM
 #29328

Small blocks equal small minds.

lol, small blocks equal smart minds.   (contrary big and stupid)

Small blocks, small dicks.


Does your mom know you're staying up late and sneaking on to her laptop just to act like a jackass?

Here son, have a clue:

Quote
The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

My mother died at the age of ninety a few years ago. Changing the blocksize do not add to the size of the bitcoin node.
Odalv
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July 25, 2015, 09:51:07 PM
 #29329

Small blocks equal small minds.

lol, small blocks equal smart minds.   (contrary big and stupid)

Small blocks, small dicks.


I want to say "the only dick here is you" but it is not true. cypherdoc is here too :-)
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July 25, 2015, 09:58:35 PM
 #29330

So we have the asics. After a few rounds of minimalization, we will be at the smallest size asics that can be made.

Next step is a special processor for lookup in the blockchain database. Maybe a special cache that can hold the transaction indexes, maybe some prediction built in so the whole chain from the coinbase can be loaded into the cache in paralell. And a special cache for holding whole transactions, or at least an output address and the number of satoshis in each cache line. One machine cycle to verify each output, at 8 GHz. That would be something. Well, ideas are cheap.
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July 25, 2015, 10:00:00 PM
 #29331

Small blocks equal small minds.

lol, small blocks equal smart minds.   (contrary big and stupid)

Small blocks, small dicks.


I want to say "the only dick here is you" but it is not true. cypherdoc is here too :-)

But there is no poetry in that.
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July 25, 2015, 11:52:46 PM
 #29332

Converted to 0.10.2 XT. Eagerly awaiting the largeblocks version.


I have 6 nodes ready and waiting.

how much does it cost you per node per month?

also, i asked before but you missed it... where are you getting those hash rate distribution graphs from? they dont match up with blockchain.info and others.



https://chain.so/btc

i think i'm paying $30/yr for 1GB RAM with swap/100GB disk
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July 25, 2015, 11:53:15 PM
 #29333

Looks like we have a rate rise by the fed on tap this year. Should start to get priced in on monday
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July 26, 2015, 12:33:24 AM
 #29334

Looks like we have a rate rise by the fed on tap this year. Should start to get priced in on monday

I'll believe it when I  see it.
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July 26, 2015, 12:37:38 AM
 #29335

Looks like we have a rate rise by the fed on tap this year. Should start to get priced in on monday

Yeah, no.  QE4?  Yep.
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July 26, 2015, 02:58:54 AM
 #29336

Looks like we have a rate rise by the fed on tap this year. Should start to get priced in on monday

Yeah, no.  QE4?  Yep.

I'm expecting both, with unlimited Keynesian hubris on the side.
This is a confidence game, so with sufficiently disorganized alternatives, the Fed may be bold and anyway they are not afraid of Bitcoin... at all.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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July 26, 2015, 03:22:10 AM
 #29337

Looks like we have a rate rise by the fed on tap this year. Should start to get priced in on monday

Yeah, no.  QE4?  Yep.

I'm expecting both, with unlimited Keynesian hubris on the side.
This is a confidence game, so with sufficiently disorganized alternatives, the Fed may be bold and anyway they are not afraid of Bitcoin... at all.

Indeed. And for those that are still counting it will be QE5 next.
http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/Quantitative-Easing.htm

QE4 was a re-bailout of the Treasury market for new issuance plus a much needed cash infusion for the primary dealers (banks)
QE3 was a re-bailout of the MBS investors (re-bailout of Fannie & Freddie) and banks
QE2 was a bailout of the Treasury market, FDIC, plus domestic and foreign banks
QE1 was a bailout of the MBS investors (bailout of Fannie & Freddie) and the banks
TARP was a bailout of the merchant banks (Citi, Squid etc) plus AIG, car-makers and (why not?) foreign banks

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July 26, 2015, 03:45:22 AM
 #29338

Looks like we have a rate rise by the fed on tap this year. Should start to get priced in on monday

Yeah, no.  QE4?  Yep.

I'm expecting both, with unlimited Keynesian hubris on the side.
This is a confidence game, so with sufficiently disorganized alternatives, the Fed may be bold and anyway they are not afraid of Bitcoin... at all.

Indeed. And for those that are still counting it will be QE5 next.
http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/Quantitative-Easing.htm

QE4 was a re-bailout of the Treasury market for new issuance plus a much needed cash infusion for the primary dealers (banks)
QE3 was a re-bailout of the MBS investors (re-bailout of Fannie & Freddie) and banks
QE2 was a bailout of the Treasury market, FDIC, plus domestic and foreign banks
QE1 was a bailout of the MBS investors (bailout of Fannie & Freddie) and the banks
TARP was a bailout of the merchant banks (Citi, Squid etc) plus AIG, car-makers and (why not?) foreign banks

the time to have raised rates was during the towering stock market advance of the last few years before what appears to have been the peak on May 19, 2015.  now that we have a Dow Theory non-confirmation on the board which looks to confirm the latter half of this year, it would be highly unlikely they raise interest rates into the the teeth of that as that would only accelerate an ongoing plunge.

it will be interesting to see how they handle this one but i doubt it will include a raise in rates.
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July 26, 2015, 03:56:12 AM
 #29339

Looks like we have a rate rise by the fed on tap this year. Should start to get priced in on monday

Yeah, no.  QE4?  Yep.
So you think the internal report that alluded to a rate rise this year accidentily published by the fed on their website was smoke and mirrors?
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July 26, 2015, 06:07:41 AM
 #29340

Looks like we have a rate rise by the fed on tap this year. Should start to get priced in on monday

Yeah, no.  QE4?  Yep.

I'm expecting both, with unlimited Keynesian hubris on the side.
This is a confidence game, so with sufficiently disorganized alternatives, the Fed may be bold and anyway they are not afraid of Bitcoin... at all.

Indeed. And for those that are still counting it will be QE5 next.
http://useconomy.about.com/od/glossary/g/Quantitative-Easing.htm

QE4 was a re-bailout of the Treasury market for new issuance plus a much needed cash infusion for the primary dealers (banks)
QE3 was a re-bailout of the MBS investors (re-bailout of Fannie & Freddie) and banks
QE2 was a bailout of the Treasury market, FDIC, plus domestic and foreign banks
QE1 was a bailout of the MBS investors (bailout of Fannie & Freddie) and the banks
TARP was a bailout of the merchant banks (Citi, Squid etc) plus AIG, car-makers and (why not?) foreign banks

the time to have raised rates was during the towering stock market advance of the last few years before what appears to have been the peak on May 19, 2015.  now that we have a Dow Theory non-confirmation on the board which looks to confirm the latter half of this year, it would be highly unlikely they raise interest rates into the the teeth of that as that would only accelerate an ongoing plunge.

it will be interesting to see how they handle this one but i doubt it will include a raise in rates.

Market performance being that mysterious third mandate of the dual mandate.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
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