Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[ohad]

After The DAO contract may be hacked on Ethereum:

we spoke about ethereum's inability to be secure all along. and tensorflow doesn't seem to have the answers. please have a look here https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit

shorter version of tau vs eth in the interview i gave to the chinese site 8btc:

The differences between Tau-Chain and Ethereum are mainly three:

1. Self defining (see image). Bitcoins and Ethereum protocols are fixed, therefore it cannot be changed in many cases, or a changes might require a fork which might be a quite insecure operation. As an example, what if someone finds a better blockchain algorithm, would Ethereum & Bitcoin be able to migrate? Or, what if Bitcoin had a built-in and secure way to deal with the block size crisis, as a special case of defining the protocol? The network should have the ability to change with time. Any trial to predict the parameters beforehand will eventually fail. For that, the code of the client itself has to come from the blockchain, and we have to be able to make sure that this code is safe, and is doing what is intended to do. This is why for being self-defining we must have our special logic, as we describe below.



2. Context separation - on Ethereum all nodes run the same code. What can therefore be the computational power of the whole Ethereum network (for code, not mining)? It cannot be no more than one single home computer. This is because all nodes must run exactly same code, as part of the process of verifying the blockchain. On Tau every user can decide which chain or application to run, given they all run the root chain, which contains the definition of the network (that might change with time, as above).

3. Logic: Ethereum uses Turing completeness, while Tau prefers consistency and decidability instead of expressibility. This tradeoff is rooted in deep logical results such as Godel's incompleteness theorems and the Halting Problem. Trust worthiness in Ethereum smart contracts can be exploited by crafted inputs, there can be both good and bad inputs so eventually highly unexpected behaviors will come along.
Tau uses a logic which is consistent and decidable (specifically, Martin-Lof Type Theory). This means that all true statements about code can be proved, and the proofs can be trusted. One can supply requirements for software, and automatically verify that given code meet those requirements. By that one can predetermine code's behavior and have a mathematical proof that it meets its requirements, so no undesired behavior can possibly happen, as long as it is formalised in Tau's language.
More advanced explanation: Turing completeness is inherently insecure because mathematically there will be always be infinitely many statements that cannot be neither proved nor disproved. Things can be provably correct or provably wrong at the same time, for example, stating "I'm able to decide whether Turing complete code is secure" (while providing some formal definition of security) is almost always a self-contradictory sentence (cf. Rice theorem).

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[bitcoinuserz]

Anyone know when the release for Tau will be? I see a good progress on github tho 

[ohad]

Anyone know when the release for Tau will be? I see a good progress on github tho 

no one knows, really. but it cannot take years

[ICOcountdown.com]

After The DAO contract may be hacked on Ethereum:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ether-price-plumets-ethereum-dao-may-be-hacked/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/dao-hacked-ethereum-crashing-in-value-tens-of-millions-allegedly-stolen-2016-6
https://forum.safenetwork.io/t/ethereum-dao-hacked/9898/6

Are going to be more secure and bug free Agoras contracts based on Tau-Chain than Ethereum contracts?

Also You said:
"MLTT covers all what matters: finite computers and finite math formulas (infinite sets are welcome, even construction of the reals using Dedekind cuts – after all, this math gets into a finite book). As a result, given a syntactically well-formed code in MLTT together with a proof that “this code will halt” or “this code will never perform more than 1M operations”, we can trust the proof. The decidability guarantees that only true statements can be proved. Moreover: a machine can seek for a proof itself. This is called Automated Theorem Proving, but for complex enough problems their runtime is astronomically high. Yet, a “skeleton” of a complex proof can be supplied by human, letting the machine verifying it by trying to fill the missing parts of the proof."

It will possible use TensorFlow (opensource Google Machine Learning) with Tau-Chain and/or have a bridge with Agoras?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FOXR16mLow
https://www.tensorflow.org

or will be best Tau-Chain than TensorFlow?

Will have Agora best speed and usability than https://cloud.google.com/bigquery/?

Thanks.

Decidability instead of expressability

[ohad]

Decidability instead of expressability

right, and we dont really give up expressibility, as we dont have infinite computers anyway

[lexxus]

real life, 50mil USD, example of inherent insecurity of ethereum contracts.

http://vessenes.com/more-ethereum-attacks-race-to-empty-is-the-real-deal/

http://cointelegraph.com/news/dao-potentially-hacked-millions-of-ether-may-be-stolen-griff-green-says

[ohad]

real life, 50mil USD, example of inherent insecurity of ethereum contracts.

http://vessenes.com/more-ethereum-attacks-race-to-empty-is-the-real-deal/

http://cointelegraph.com/news/dao-potentially-hacked-millions-of-ether-may-be-stolen-griff-green-says

and denial all around..
(except tau's people)

[ICOcountdown.com]

I have been saying Tau is a hedge for Ethereum for a while now, I will be releasing another article soon in core media about it.

[cryptodv]

I have been saying Tau is a hedge for Ethereum for a while now, I will be releasing another article soon in core media about it.

 A hedge for Ethereum Do you think this project really has that much potential?? Not doubting it, just seeking your point of view.

[4emily]

Anyone know when the release for Tau will be? I see a good progress on github tho 

no one knows, really. but it cannot take years

Hope not - I don't have years. Jus sayin'

[ICOcountdown.com]

I have been saying Tau is a hedge for Ethereum for a while now, I will be releasing another article soon in core media about it.

 A hedge for Ethereum Do you think this project really has that much potential?? Not doubting it, just seeking your point of view.

Hedge for ethereum means if you do not believe in Turing completeness(expressability) and you want to use decidability(Security) (Church) then Tau is probably the best option for this. I do beleive that this project will be big yes.

[m4nki]

real life, 50mil USD, example of inherent insecurity of ethereum contracts.

http://vessenes.com/more-ethereum-attacks-race-to-empty-is-the-real-deal/

http://cointelegraph.com/news/dao-potentially-hacked-millions-of-ether-may-be-stolen-griff-green-says

and denial all around..
(except tau's people)

To me it seems like a huge chunk of the Bitcoin community also agrees upon Ethereum being fundamentally flawed (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1361602.0).

Same goes with the Monero community.


Anyhow, I am happy to see Tau progress with every day.
As I said before, it is to me the most interesting project out there apart from Bitcoin itself.

Good job on everyone involved!

[e1ghtSpace]

Is there a real chance that Tau-Chain can overtake ethereum in the future?
I heard Microsoft is using ethereum. Why would it be better for them to use Tau-chain?

This has probably been answered before, sorry.

[ICOcountdown.com]

Is there a real chance that Tau-Chain can overtake ethereum in the future?
I heard Microsoft is using ethereum. Why would it be better for them to use Tau-chain?

This has probably been answered before, sorry.

If Turing completeness is faulty and cannot be used appropriatley there will be no other option than to exit the position of using Turing complete technology.

For example you can see some examples of software that are accidentally turing complete my favourite example is Pokemon Yellow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness#Video_games

You can see how it is exploited here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UnB1fomvAw

[e1ghtSpace]

Is there a real chance that Tau-Chain can overtake ethereum in the future?
I heard Microsoft is using ethereum. Why would it be better for them to use Tau-chain?

This has probably been answered before, sorry.

If Turing completeness is faulty and cannot be used appropriatley there will be no other option than to exit the position of using Turing complete technology.

For example you can see some examples of software that are accidentally turing complete my favourite example is Pokemon Yellow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness#Video_games

You can see how it is exploited here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UnB1fomvAw

Ok, so there is no real reason for Microsoft to switch to Tau-chain at the moment?

Speaking of Turing completeness and arbitrary code execution, here is my favourite: https://youtu.be/jnZ2NNYySuE

And another done without being tool assisted:
https://youtu.be/14wqBA5Q1yc
 

[Rw13enlib88]

the main differences I see between Tau and Ether are marketing and liquidity


Marketing
All the cryptocommunity know about Ether but only a few about TAU


Liquidity
Ethereum is on Polo, Kraken, Bitfinex, btc-e, GDAX, Yunbi, Bittrex, BitMex, Gemini, Yobit, Cex.io + 10 or more
AGRS is on Bittrex




My ideas:

Marketing
More interviews explaining how TAU is security (Turing completeness) and expressability (The new Tau language)     (correct if this is not true)
If you believe in Turing complete: Ethereum
If you believe in Turing completeness: Tau
If you're not sure: Diversify in both


Liquidity
Explain more exchanges the project and why they should add TAU

[thejaytiesto]

This is as interesting as confusing to me. Im still trying to learn what's the point.

I may be interested to invest, but as an investor, I see a fundamental risk and that is the fact that this doesn't even have a proper way to store the tokens locally, so you would need to hope that bitfinex doesn't run away with your tokens during an unknown amount of time (no one knows when a local wallet will be released to download). This may damage the project eventually. Another interesting project (Maidsafe) had problems to deliver a software that would allow you to have the definitive tokens (Safecoins) in your hard drive instead of in Poloniex or whatever, they have been delaying this since forever, so far as I know they are still with the non-definitive tokens (MaidsafeCoins) which means you have to have those tokens in Poloniex or whatever exchange you are using. This is suicidal for any long term investment. This is why I ask, how long until we can carry the private keys ourselves to not depend on an exchange?

I also want to know why would this Agoras token have any relevant increase in value in the future. You also mentioned that Tauchain "may or not may have its own token". Would this other token be separate token from Agoras token? Im just unsure about the whole thing.

[Rw13enlib88]

Ohad, could you please post the an update of the presale?
it would be awesome to know exactly how many AGRS are in circulation...

Ex:
Claimer 1   -   2/15/2016     30.000AGRS
Claimer 2   -   5/15/2016     400.000AGRS

I see an adress in Bitttrex with 447k AGRS 
that's 447k*40ksat = 178 BTC      


btw, what do you think about getting into Keiser Report to explain Tau?

[thejaytiesto]

Ohad, could you please post the an update of the presale?
it would be awesome to know exactly how many AGRS are in circulation...

Ex:
Claimer 1   -   2/15/2016     30.000AGRS
Claimer 2   -   5/15/2016     400.000AGRS

I see an adress in Bitttrex with 447k AGRS 
that's 447k*40ksat = 178 BTC      


btw, what do you think about getting into Keiser Report to explain Tau?

I would like to see Ohad talking about Tauchain in the Keiser Report, Max Keiser always tries to make the right questions to make complex things understandable for the laymen and he's always a fun guy.

In any case, im surprised no one else is asking what im asking... how can we trust exchanges to hold our tokens? When can we have software to hold tokens ourselves?

Imagine that guy with 178 BTC invested for example. Bitfinex decides to pull a Mtgox/Mintpal/Cryptsy (so many examples of exchanges failing...) and he would be fucked big time since we all know once an exchange runs you are not seeing the money again. Thats why we need software to hold coins ourselves quick.

[Rw13enlib88]

Ohad, could you please post the an update of the presale?
it would be awesome to know exactly how many AGRS are in circulation...

Ex:
Claimer 1   -   2/15/2016     30.000AGRS
Claimer 2   -   5/15/2016     400.000AGRS

I see an adress in Bitttrex with 447k AGRS 
that's 447k*40ksat = 178 BTC      


btw, what do you think about getting into Keiser Report to explain Tau?

I would like to see Ohad talking about Tauchain in the Keiser Report, Max Keiser always tries to make the right questions to make complex things understandable for the laymen and he's always a fun guy.

In any case, im surprised no one else is asking what im asking... how can we trust exchanges to hold our tokens? When can we have software to hold tokens ourselves?

Imagine that guy with 178 BTC invested for example. Bitfinex decides to pull a Mtgox/Mintpal/Cryptsy (so many examples of exchanges failing...) and he would be fucked big time since we all know once an exchange runs you are not seeing the money again. Thats why we need software to hold coins ourselves quick.

I do agree with you, we can not trust exchanges. The problem is, until the code is finished and pre-sale finished, there is no wallet.

Two ideas for that problem

1) Devs holding investors coins
Dev set up an address and people send there their coins. Dev relates each deposit to a name/btc address of choice

2) Devs hold a list of AGRS addresses related to a name/btc address of choice
Dev set up a list of all AGRS addresses and each owner proofs their ownership