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2041  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: July 01, 2020, 04:02:18 PM
[...]

Luckily the people I bought most of my coins from have a lot more than me. Many of my early coins came from the folks at Decentral, the birthplace of Ethereum where their obscene profits from that sleazy scam made some of them billionaires. I guess I could have made a shitload if I'd jumped on their offer of buying into the pre-mine but then I'd have to live with myself.

<snip>

Now I'm past using ATMs (hopefully) and back to doing OTC business with devoted Bitcoiners. Hopefully no wrenches.

Back in 2015, I used to buy coins from ATMs (didn't yet have an account on an exchange). I remember I once wired $1100 to a friend who lived right next to one, and asked him to buy BTC for me and send me a photo of the QR code. He did. Later that day he called me and asked me whether he should also buy some coins. Of course I encouraged him and did an Andreas Antonopoulos-style lecture. He was excited. He wanted in. Until a few days later, when he called me and said he read on the net that Bitcoin was being used by criminals to launder money and was "no good". He even warned me against it and indirectly called me a "criminal supporter". He hasn't spoken about it ever since, but I see a bitterness in his face whenever we meet.

I guess many shop owners using Bitcoin ATMs in their shops do (did) it just for the rental of their floor spaces, they never really believed in Bitcoin. It was only in 2016-2017 that things got serious, but it was too late for most to get in. Well, we all now know that it wasn't really too late, but that's how it seemed to them, just like it felt in 2015 after MtGox.

Long story short, you can't have guarantees, you've got to risk some to gain some. With Bitcoin, being able to understand the tech behind it, and realizing its significance as electronic cash, gives you an advantage (a big advantage) over the clueless masses who just follow the media propaganda. For me, it was the understanding that production halves every four years (next was in 2016 at the time), so I just knew I had to own some coins before then. My only regret is not buying more during those early days.

Live and learn. And take risks. That's the lesson of all this.

I was was blown away by a couple of bitcoin ideas (in addition to no third party control, etc.):

1. Emission curve
2. The fact that you can convert electricity into something that is essentially, money (or at least immediately convertible good), and it appeared to be legal.

Hodling idea came at least a year or two later.

Yeah, I remember watching one of Andreas Antonopoulos' videos on YouTube. A very old one.

I don't think I slept that night.

Discovering Bitcoin was, for me, one of those rare moments when you come to realize that this is something that will change the world. Something revolutionary. And we are all part of it. I'm certain that in several decades from now, Bitcoin will be mentioned in the history books as a major part of the "information revolution", or the "monetary revolution", or whatever the historians want to call it.

I know most of us are in it for the profits (and it's understandable), but this is beyond getting "fuck you" rich status. This will change the entire world for the better. This is so much bigger than any of us.
2042  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: July 01, 2020, 03:13:08 PM
[...]

Luckily the people I bought most of my coins from have a lot more than me. Many of my early coins came from the folks at Decentral, the birthplace of Ethereum where their obscene profits from that sleazy scam made some of them billionaires. I guess I could have made a shitload if I'd jumped on their offer of buying into the pre-mine but then I'd have to live with myself.

The owner of my corner store that used to have the ATM started showing me increasing respect during and after the 2016-2017 bull run though. I once asked him how big a percentage he got and he said nothing, just flat rental of his floor space. The store across the street offered lower rent and the ATM operator moved his machine. Too bad. I think he realized too late what was happening. If he'd taken his end in coins, he'd probably be rich(er) himself.

Now I'm past using ATMs (hopefully) and back to doing OTC business with devoted Bitcoiners. Hopefully no wrenches.

Back in 2015, I used to buy coins from ATMs (didn't yet have an account on an exchange). I remember I once wired $1100 to a friend who lived right next to one, and asked him to buy BTC for me and send me a photo of the QR code. He did. Later that day he called me and asked me whether he should also buy some coins. Of course I encouraged him and did an Andreas Antonopoulos-style lecture. He was excited. He wanted in. Until a few days later, when he called me and said he read on the net that Bitcoin was being used by criminals to launder money and was "no good". He even warned me against it and indirectly called me a "criminal supporter". He hasn't spoken about it ever since, but I see a bitterness in his face whenever we meet.

I guess many shop owners using Bitcoin ATMs in their shops do (did) it just for the rental of their floor spaces, they never really believed in Bitcoin. It was only in 2016-2017 that things got serious, but it was too late for most to get in. Well, we all now know that it wasn't really too late, but that's how it seemed to them, just like it felt in 2015 after MtGox.

Long story short, you can't have guarantees, you've got to risk some to gain some. With Bitcoin, being able to understand the tech behind it, and realizing its significance as electronic cash, gives you an advantage (a big advantage) over the clueless masses who just follow the media propaganda. For me, it was the understanding that production halves every four years (next was in 2016 at the time), so I just knew I had to own some coins before then. My only regret is not buying more during those early days.

Live and learn. And take risks. That's the lesson of all this.
2043  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2020, 09:13:47 PM
For the synthwave lovers among us, give a listen to this:

The Guest (2014) -- Original Motion Picture Soundtrack

IMHO, a great collection of vintage 80s synthwave tracks.

Edit: Some tracks are more recent, but still have that 80s vibe, as in the film. Perfect!
2044  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
Only a real scumbag would look for god in money.



Trust? Who needs trust?

BTC "Vires in Numeris." BTC
BTC "Don't trust, verify." BTC

They can trust (their) god, but we don't trust them!

HoDL.
2045  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2020, 05:38:00 PM
When any high profile nutjob leaves the crypto space there always seems to be another in line to take the limelight...
https://cointelegraph.com/news/max-keiser-us-hash-rate-war-with-iran-can-send-bitcoin-price-to-500k

Quote
“So this is God looking at us through the protocol and trying to figure out, ‘How do we fix this human species because they’ve gone way off track due to central banking?’”

At least this one is bullish on BTC. $500,000 per coin, ahhhhh **daydreams**

How I'd love to see the shop owner's face when I tell her that the 1 BTC I bought in 2015 from her shop's newly installed Bitcoin ATM (then worth $220), is now worth $500k.  Shocked  Cool

I may pay her a visit when this happens. I do hope she bought some BTC for herself...

Verify that she is not holding any wrench or wrench-like object when you disclose this information to her.  

You will thank me later.    Wink

Oh yes, bad idea, although I don't think she's the wrench-type girl! She's pretty too, and sweet. But the prospect of several $M can do a lot of things to people, so better be VERY careful when that $500k/BTC time comes...

I remember, I bought my first Bitcoin from her, kept it in a wallet app on my phone, and forgot about it (thinking I'd just wasted $220). After 3 months I launched my wallet app and saw the balance was $350+, at which point I arranged a visit to her shop and bought 3 more coins. She even suggested we do a wallet-to-wallet transaction (bypassing the ATM), which we did. I think the ATM company had given her access to a wallet for larger amount transactions.

So, yeah, she knows way too much about my Bitcoin activities... A $5 wrench is too damn cheap. And too damn effective!
2046  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2020, 03:14:09 PM
When any high profile nutjob leaves the crypto space there always seems to be another in line to take the limelight...
https://cointelegraph.com/news/max-keiser-us-hash-rate-war-with-iran-can-send-bitcoin-price-to-500k

Quote
“So this is God looking at us through the protocol and trying to figure out, ‘How do we fix this human species because they’ve gone way off track due to central banking?’”

At least this one is bullish on BTC. $500,000 per coin, ahhhhh **daydreams**

How I'd love to see the shop owner's face when I tell her that the 1 BTC I bought in 2015 from her shop's newly installed Bitcoin ATM (then worth $220), is now worth $500k.  Shocked  Cool

I may pay her a visit when this happens. I do hope she bought some BTC for herself...
2047  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 30, 2020, 02:27:55 PM


I love graphs like this. And the best part of graphs like this, is that the vertical (price) scale is logarithmic. It's the only type of scale that can contain and visualize the upcoming bull run that's going to take us to new heights measured by number of digits.

Leave the linear scales to gold and silver, log scales all the way for Bitcoin!

HoDL.
2048  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 29, 2020, 09:18:01 PM
I just ordered pizza... Too much healthy food lately, needed some "dirty" calorie intake.

At least BTC is mini-pumping, so all good!  Cheesy
2049  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 28, 2020, 04:06:53 PM
My haiku-style guess:
ATH by end of year,
6 digits in 3.
2050  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 26, 2020, 12:11:20 AM
Almost safe to say ..... congrats LFC  Grin

When I saw your post, I immediately checked the price...  Grin

Congrats LFC!
2051  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 24, 2020, 01:48:41 PM
Excellent, another one. Why do you support a violent political organization that wants to eat the rich?

It is very, very curious that not one of you have an answer. Not even something as simple as an affirmation or denial of said support.

Why do you assume that anyone disagreeing with your statement "we should get rid of black people because their lives have negative value", automatically means that they support "a violent political organization that wants to eat the rich"?

To directly answer your question, I'm totally against, and do not support, any organization that wants to eat humans.
2052  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 24, 2020, 10:26:13 AM
It really is weird. I'm against violent thugs and somehow that makes me the bad guy. Which also means that those who disavow me over it is for violent thugs. And they consider this good.

But, you didn't say that... You said:

Just so there is no confusion, I am officially going on record as saying that black lives matter. They have negative value. We should get rid of them.

Now, combine the two together, and it becomes clear that The Dude has a point in effectively calling you an attention-seeking whore.

There is something very wrong with some of you.

First you're asking to eradicate the Chinese, now the black people. Who's next?
2053  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 24, 2020, 08:20:12 AM
How are we feeling on BTC today brothers

Business as usual.

Dipping...

Worried? Hell, NO! To shoot a gun you need to cock it first.

Be ready!
2054  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 23, 2020, 11:44:26 AM
So ... how do y'all feel about the monthly futures closing coming up this Friday?

friday? whats that.

ooooh yeah a day of the week. guess being retired has perks.

as for that futures stuff, my feeble brain, which has no clue, can only watch what others say about it. lemme know if its good news please.

Oh yeah, I've been there (not retired, but working from home and not required to follow specific day/time routines). Sometimes you can forget what day of the week it is... Good stuff.

Futures, pumps, dumps, anything happening right now, I'm completely insensitive about... Being a HoDLer and not a trader, means you can relax and only take notice of the BIG things. I'll start feeling excited when I see $12k+/BTC, at which time the rocket's engines will be at full power and the ascent will begin.

Coming this year is my SOMA guess.
2055  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 22, 2020, 06:43:01 PM
How does paypal plan on getting around what their own terms of service says about the buying of cryptocurrency even on ebay is prohibited?
A caveat?! Grin

No wonder bitcoin is pumping hard seeing it reach over $9616 in the last hour. Must be the news. Wink

Seems to me that many of those services are trying to cause you to go through their app, but they do not allow peer to peer trading, unless it goes through their app....   There is a difference there.  Same with E-bay.. if you were buying and selling from ebay, the probably feel o.k about that, but if you are using the service to hook up and do a private transaction, they feel vulnerable in allowing or facilitating or being involved in those kinds of interactions...

Well (referring to rdbase's comment), they can always update their terms & conditions. Fuck this shit.

Alan Turing, the father of theoretical computer science, and the codebreaker of Enigma, was practically convicted to death for being gay, in a country (England) that was highly prejudiced against gay people at the time. Only recently (in 2013) was he exonerated of his "crime"... What the fuck is wrong with this country?

Poor analogy, but that's what's going to happen with Bitcoin, except that it's not going to die, because it can't die. It started humbly, was used and abused for different reasons, was accused of aiding criminality (yeah, blame the knife and not the murderer), buried for dead hundreds of times, its supporters ridiculed and laughed at. And it will soon take its rightful place as the worldwide king of electronic cash, and be praised and awarded by the very same people who wrote it off as useless, just like Turing's posthumous awards. See, science is objective, they can try to fight it, but they can't really win. And Bitcoin is true science at its best.
2056  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 21, 2020, 06:25:17 PM
Nice discussion! Just too many things happening IRL that I can only skim through the posts, let alone replying...

[edited out]

"So I got out", you said. That's what I mean by not being a wage slave. You saw that you were becoming one, so you decided to change things. Wage slavery is when you are afraid to make changes and endure a life of misery by spending half your life doing things you don't want to do, especially when you know you can do much better. I consider myself blessed in that respect, because I'm currently getting paid very well to do things so interesting and exciting that I would gladly pay for to do. But if things go south and I feel I need to change something, I will certainly try to change it.

It seems to me that anyone could get sucked into a kind of complacency, and I cannot even really blame them for getting sucked in.

The more curious that you are, and the more that you continue to attempt to build your skills and to make sure that you have options, the less likely that you might get sucked into one profession that either becomes boring, or you feel that you are being exploited because you are not being advanced through the ranks in order to be able to transition into the learning and development of new skills.

Surely, if the promotion rates are small or the industry is shrinking, we could end up kind of getting fucked because we might have and some false reliance upon the direction of the industry and whether our skills were going to be valued with the passage of time.

When I was gaining my independence in the 80s and 90s, I had recognized various computer related programing and development to be lucrative and future oriented skills, but I never personally developed those skills because I had other interests, even though I could recognize a decent amount of future-poofing into  developing those kinds of skills - perhaps so long as you do not get too trapped into some jobs that are too narrowly focused.. that might end up not giving you either upward promotion potential or the ability to laterally move if you were to want to exercise such option.

Of course, tying this into bitcoin could be that someone who has a decent amount of skills in software, hardware and firmware (whatever the fuck that is?) could develop bitcoin skills on the side, and of course, many of us also realize that we might not need to know shit about any of the technicals to be able to invest in bitcoin, but investing in bitcoin might still take 10-20 years or even more to really get to fuck you status, especially if you are only able to garner $100 per month (or some modest amount) to be able to invest into stacking sats.

Whether we are talking about personal employment skills or even side investments, each of us continues to have some obligations to attempt to secure our own future by trying to make sure that whatever investments that we are making, whether we are investing into building skills or we are investing financially is to be attempting to avoid getting trapped without hardly any options, so of course, when we are younger, we might have very few skills and maybe very little finances to be able to exercise a wide variety of options, but if we have any kind of brain (even if we might be mentally challenged) we can strive to build our skills and our finances in a way that builds our options..  Most humans have abilities to learn skills, but it takes work too, and sure there is luck involved too, while ongoing preparations and not going to crazy with burning your capital or your bridges will likely lead to more situations in which you are able to run into "lucky" breaks along the way.

Yeah, it's true that our status can change (more likely to worsen than improve) due to life/society/world changes beyond our control, and life can change from kind to nasty, and even cruel. So we shouldn't be reassured that what we currently have and how we've currently arranged our lives can be maintained indefinitely. Same (even more so) applies to Bitcoin, which can turn our status from "fuck you rich" to "fucked up" and back again in a short amount of time, so short that we should not really plan our future based solely on Bitcoin. That's why it's important to have a solid base level of (more or less) guaranteed financial status and ability to maintain a minimum but acceptable standard of living, to which Bitcoin can add the small (or larger) perks and "fuck you" elements that will satisfy some of our desires.

Life is short, and the more you explore the world, the more you realise how small you are, how little you know, and how small our time on this planer really is. It kind of tragic, really, if you think about it. I guess that our perception of time is fine tuned in such a way that we tend to ignore it and assume we'll live forever, and act as such. The older and the wiser we get, the more we realise that there's so much more out there, so much knowledge and experiences to gain, but so little time. It's kind of like two aspects of our being, working against each other: the body gets weaker, the brain/mind gets wiser, up until they cannot support each other (and then the brain fails too, and that's the end of it).

What does all this have to do with Bitcoin? Probably very little, I guess it's those leaves I'm smoking that still have an effect...
2057  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 21, 2020, 05:39:21 PM
[...]



Nice wall.

The 1st and 4th elephant are clearly HoDLers. See, they are so smart they are even able to levitate. The 5th one is a latecomer, who's trying to get in. I think she will manage nicely. The other three are hopeless. All bloated and unable to hold their corn. They mindrusted it all in an instant, and are now permanent slaves of gravity, unable to even move from where they currently are. I bet they'll die right there too.

The wavy pattern below them is of some significance. It represents Bitcoin volatility, going up and down in a sinusoidal pattern, with a period of exactly 4 years. Notice the little semicircles with a dot at the center. These are ancient smilies, for when you buy corn. It's what the ancients would call BTFD.

The black/white tile pattern represents the never-ending waves of Bitcoin winters followed by regions of prosperity and huge gains. Notice how they are aligned with the waves above them. Yes, the ancients knew their stuff. They are now looking at us and laughing at how stupid we all are for not being able to read the patterns.

BTW, this is the wall that Masterluc uses to predict the future price of Bitcoin. Don't ask me how I know, but he uses it to analyze price action and predict where it's going to be. The elephants play a part too, but he wouldn't tell me how he uses them when I asked. I can only guess...

Oh, about the green leaves on the ground. They are the ones I'm currently smoking... Great stuff, I tell ya. You should try. Just make sure you are safely away from your wallets, paper of otherwise...
2058  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 21, 2020, 10:10:31 AM
....  Just too many things happening IRL that I can only skim through the posts, let alone replying...


same. will catch up soon. meanwhile

@sassal0x

Poor girl. She must be thinking you're a perverted farmer who can't spell "sex"...
2059  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 21, 2020, 07:11:03 AM
Nice discussion! Just too many things happening IRL that I can only skim through the posts, let alone replying...

Calling yourself a wage slave for too long means you really need to change something in your life. Not all people can achieve getting enjoyment from work. Some are incapable, others lazy, others just unlucky, although I don't really believe luck can fully define someone. One can make his/her own luck in life, or he/she falls into the "incapable" category. But at least you've got to try. If you fail, try again, and if you fail again, maybe you're not able to do it, or you need to re-evaluate your goals, and Bitcoin can help in such cases, but not everyone is in this situation. Not everyone is a wage slave.

True. But the actual work of one's career can also change drastically over time, to become much less meaningful.

For example, when I first got into IT programming in the mid 90's, the work was actually very meaningful and fun. We were building business software applications from complete scratch, and there was a sense of passion, creativity and analysis in what I was doing day to day. Programmers could use their brains to bang out code to build custom use cases and custom UIs, were respected and revered, and got paid accordingly for their creative analysis and technical knowledge.

By the time I got out of that career in the 2010's, IT programmers were reduced to simply integrating off-the-shelf, expensive closed-source software into existing business environments. They essentially became glorified software "babysitters", having to spend their days trying to integrate and debug software that was poorly-written by someone else, often with poor performance, poor configuration, archaic APIs, missing or incomplete documentation, lack of expertise, etc. And these software integrations were often initiated under ridiculous time schedules and low/inadequate budgets, with use-case and performance expectations that could not be met in the time allotted. Or ever. It became soul-crushing work, and I started having bouts of anxiety and depression that I never had in the beginning of my IT career.

What the IT career became in the end, was not something I had signed up for in the beginning. So I got out.

I hear you, and I agree. I'm also involved in s/w (mostly f/w) development, as part of my embedded designs, to which I also design the h/w. It's Sunday and I'm currently working on a driver for a project. A driver that was supposed to be ready and available for me to use as part of a ready-made SDK library. Well, it "kind of" works. But in my line of work, "kind of" is unacceptable. Little things like not strictly adhering to timing specifications and thus causing it to fail when communicating with certain rare ICs, or not being flexible enough to do exactly what I want, have forced me to design my own driver. As with most things, if you want to do it right, do it yourself.

I see this as a blessing in disguise though. I enjoy diving deep into the h/w and writing bare metal f/w for it. So, the lack of quality s/w libraries/drivers gives me an opportunity to do exactly that. Sounds like I'm a masochist, but I do enjoy low-level programming, as it improves my understanding of the h/w and makes it much easier to debug or extend my design's functionality. My employer believes in me and has given me total freedom to manage my projects, so I can decide on what approach to take in my designs. And I take the purist approach, i.e., if it doesn't work as it should, write/design it yourself from scratch.

Having to work on poorly written s/w, having to integrate it into my projects, no, I would avoid it at all costs. It's going to be a hell of a mess to maintain and upgrade, and probably won't perform as good as a project that was designed from the ground up. There is a cost to designing everything yourself though, which is that development may take longer than expected, but this is OK with me and my employer, so I take my time. And the quality of the final design more than makes up for it.

"So I got out", you said. That's what I mean by not being a wage slave. You saw that you were becoming one, so you decided to change things. Wage slavery is when you are afraid to make changes and endure a life of misery by spending half your life doing things you don't want to do, especially when you know you can do much better. I consider myself blessed in that respect, because I'm currently getting paid very well to do things so interesting and exciting that I would gladly pay for to do. But if things go south and I feel I need to change something, I will certainly try to change it.
2060  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: June 20, 2020, 10:02:28 AM
a $92K annual drawdown on $2.3M. Not shabby, but neither is it anywhere near what I was making when I was a wage slave. And I ain't typical retirement age yet, so allowances need be made to extend the principal that many more years.
[...]

I recall that you (picnic bear) and I had already had a variation of this conversation regarding having some enjoyment in work, and surely there is going to be individual variation in that regard, and even rewards from work that are not necessarily feeling like they are slave labor. Accordingly, there are reasons why some multi-millionaires and even billionaires will continue to involve themselves in money making endeavors, even though they really do not need to be occupying their time with such business arrangements and some of the work that might come out of juggling various kinds of business relationships, so in that regard, having fuck you status can be played at higher levels, too in which wealthy persons who chooses projects based on personal enjoyment, status, purpose and sometimes will be in a position to can business relations or others to go fly a kite if they do not want to play ball with the wealthy person... of course, assuming that no contractual obligation(s) had been created... and sometimes being the one with more money can sometimes allow for the breaking of contracts without really suffering meaningful negative financial consequences, too.  

[...]

Spot on!

Steve Jobs once said: "For the past 33 years, I have looked in the mirror every morning and asked myself: 'If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?' And whenever the answer has been 'No' for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something."

Calling yourself a wage slave for too long means you really need to change something in your life. Not all people can achieve getting enjoyment from work. Some are incapable, others lazy, others just unlucky, although I don't really believe luck can fully define someone. One can make his/her own luck in life, or he/she falls into the "incapable" category. But at least you've got to try. If you fail, try again, and if you fail again, maybe you're not able to do it, or you need to re-evaluate your goals, and Bitcoin can help in such cases, but not everyone is in this situation. Not everyone is a wage slave.

Reaching "fuck you" richness status should not necessarily mean quitting work, or stopping doing what you're doing. It could mean that you are now able to do more things that were out of your reach before, feeling more secure about your financial situation, enjoying your hobbies and leisure time to the maximum, but continue working on the field you enjoy, and even be much more productive and much more involved now, keeping your brain active and your intellectual abilities in top shape. Many of the super-rich personalities of the world are workaholics, because it's their work that keeps them alive.
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