Why do Atheists Hate Religion?

[BitNow]

Yeah - it's easy to call someone stupid without backing your words with anything. Although, you should never call someone stupid, even if they are - it's rude. Grow up!

My argument was about Stupidity not about a person in particular.

Can we agree on the God of the Old Testament: is the God of the Old Testament the same of all 3 monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam)?


Best regards.

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[eon89]

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Humm... Jesus is different from the Bible. The biggest part of the Bible has nothing to do with Jesus, you know that no?

Now what started this line of thinking?

Actually, you are wrong. The whole theme of the Bible is to show the salvation that Jesus provides. In fact, the beginning of the Gospel of John in the New Testament says:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

In the quote, the word "Word" is used to refer to both Jesus and the Bible.

In addition, Jesus, Himself, said, referring to the Scriptures (Bible):

These are they which testify about me.

The Bible is essentially, at least in theme, Jesus.

What about the Leviticus for example? Which is the part where homosexuality or the worship of other gods is heavily punished, most of the time by death (and a painful one). What's the link with Jesus here?

First let me go back to the beginning. After Adam and Eve sinned, God came to them walking in the Garden. They hid themselves because they were naked. You can read about it in Genesis chapter 3. Specifically for our purposes, verse 8:

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

God is a Spirit. Spirits don't walk in gardens in the cool of the day. The one aspect of God Who is not only a Spirit only, but is also a man so that He can walk, is Jesus. Jesus was there right in the beginning, already helping people through their sins and mistakes. Read how He helped Adam and Eve, it's in the Bible, in Genesis 3.

Regarding Leviticus, the whole period of the Israel people from the time even before they left Egypt, and throughout the early years in Canaan, Jesus is there... in the form that He has in the beginning chapter(s) of the Revelation. Whenever you see the words "the Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament, this is talking about Jesus, before He came in His humility - as a child born of Mary. If you see the words, "an angel," or "an angel of the Lord," it probably is not talking about Jesus.

The whole Bible is about Jesus and the things He did to save mankind. In addition, it is written in ways that the reader will get the best advantage out of it... by listening to the stories of real people who lived real lives of trouble, just like all of us.

Stories don't mean anything. Even if they are told by "real" people doesn't mean they are real.
Just once I'd like to see you say something concrete: God exists, and the proof is "X".
Something scientifically proven. Until now you haven't said a thing.

[BitNow]

Stories don't mean anything. Even if they are told by "real" people doesn't mean they are real.
Just once I'd like to see you say something concrete: God exists, and the proof is "X".
Something scientifically proven. Until now you haven't said a thing.

God exists and the proof is Faith.

Can we agree on the God of the Old Testament: is the God of the Old Testament the same of all 3 monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam)?


Best regards.

[eon89]

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus is a myth...

In his book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," Dr. Richard Carrier argues that the euhemerism of the mystical Jesus is a likely explanation of the myth of Jesus.

DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn

There is literally zero historical evidence of this Jesus character... which is VERY suspicious...

Granted, we don't know much about the average guy who lived 2000 years ago, but this was not an average guy... We know lots about famous people of the time, like Julius Caesar...

No historian wrote about Jesus (and some were alive at the time)... Don't try mentioning Josephus, that was 70 years after Jesus died, and a proven forgery of the 3rd century (the text changed 200 years after Josephus wrote it)... There is not a single non-biblical account of "Jesus"

There is not a single object directly related to Jesus... he was a carpenter for 30 years... where are all the chairs and tables made by Jesus?  He must have made tens of thousands of wooden objects if he was a carpenter...

Jesus is a conglomeration of various myths which had been floating around the Mediterranean region for centuries... its quite well documented

And again, +1 for science. But I'm sure the rock guy will find another irrelevant, nothing to do with reality argument to answer. Because he wants to "save us". I mean, no one asked him to, because from what I'm seeing people are asking to be left alone, but no. He has a mission. He's a rock. Stubborn as a rock. Mind as a rock? Let us ponder on this brothers and sisters.

Science is absolutely great. God made it, and we get to use it. It proves God, and it proves those who say that God does not exist to be liars. Up with God and science. Down with those who believe science theory is the truth.

You've said a lot of things but still haven't seen any concrete proof. You've said that you've proven something but I've only seen words. Show us the proof man. God exists because God exists is not proof. It's just you saying "God exists".
And I say "Star Wars exists and it's great!".

You can't give proof. That's stupid if you could prove God's existence, there would be no need of having faith in Him.

The important thing is to be honest with your own feelings. If you have the faith, then you should cherish it and live regarding it. If you don't, then it's not your fault and you shouldn't be judged for that.

This, in my opinion is the clearest thing that was said. Thank you for summing all of our ideas so simple and so concise.
"If God existed than there wouldn't be the need to have faith."
It's so simple and elegant.

[BADecker]

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus is a myth...

In his book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," Dr. Richard Carrier argues that the euhemerism of the mystical Jesus is a likely explanation of the myth of Jesus.

DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn

There is literally zero historical evidence of this Jesus character... which is VERY suspicious...

Granted, we don't know much about the average guy who lived 2000 years ago, but this was not an average guy... We know lots about famous people of the time, like Julius Caesar...

No historian wrote about Jesus (and some were alive at the time)... Don't try mentioning Josephus, that was 70 years after Jesus died, and a proven forgery of the 3rd century (the text changed 200 years after Josephus wrote it)... There is not a single non-biblical account of "Jesus"

There is not a single object directly related to Jesus... he was a carpenter for 30 years... where are all the chairs and tables made by Jesus?  He must have made tens of thousands of wooden objects if he was a carpenter...

Jesus is a conglomeration of various myths which had been floating around the Mediterranean region for centuries... its quite well documented

Many Jews of Jesus' day converted to Christianity. This included Jewish priests and scribes. These people are of a kind who diligently keep and uphold records. They attest to the validity of the New Testament by their tradition of flawlessly handing down the N.T. eye witness reports.

If that wasn't enough, you can see by the evidence of all the Christians that are around, that the Holy spirit is working faith in their hearts. This faith is based on the person of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is real. He is alive in Heaven. He will return to earth in the same way his disciples saw Him go into Heaven. Jesus could return at any time.

However, if Jesus doesn't return for 10,000 years, for you He will return shortly. Why? Because after you die sometime in the next few years, the next thing you will see after your death, is Jesus calling you out of the grave. For you it will seem like He came rather quickly.

I'm sure Jesus is alive in heaven but He's not here on earth. And we, here, on earth, deal in real, objective, palpable things.

Yes, the things that God is directing from Heaven.   

[BADecker]

Let me tell you something, as a theology major, that is: theology is nonsense. And I can and am allowed to say that because mine is an informed opinion. I'm not just talking out of my ass. And after 5 years my opinion (doesn't have to be yours too) is that it's just a bunch of hooey. How easy it is to make nonsense up, make people believe it, and then live out of people's ignorance. It's genius!

Perhaps if you had been a spiritual major, all that theology would have made some sense to you. Too bad. All that training, and what good did it do you. Essentially none... at least in the ways that are worth anything of eternal value.

Go study science with a focus on finding out how cause and effect, complex universe, and universal entropy combine to prove the existence of God. Then go back and review your theological training. You just might come to understand that even you can be saved for eternal life in pleasure and joy.

Yeah - it took me 5 years of studying theology to finally understand that it's all nonsense. That's my opinion, please respect it, I'll respect your and that's it. Don't force your ideas upon others. Go be with Jesus.

In Hell you will be saying for eternity, "Please God, let that guy force faith in you on me."

[eon89]

If we had the proof of His existence then how us, mortals, could oppose His will?

God has left a tiny area of free will open in us. It has to do with aspects of faith that we have in Him. It doesn't have anything to so with any of our standard understanding of free will, like choosing which side of the bed to get out of in the morning.

Our free will has to do with limited aspects of our faith in God. That's it. God judges us according to our faith in Him.

Then how could He test us?

God tests us based on the freewill portion of our faith in Him.

...the area of free will...

Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!



A point about free will and prayer...

When you pray for God to change his divine plan to benefit yourself... You claim that you know better than God does?  You ask him to change his perfect/divine plan because your kid has cancer?  Who are you to question God's divine/perfect plan?!?  God gave your kid cancer because that is His plan, and you think you know better than God? The lolz

Logic - can't fight it. Not in this universe. Which, I for one, believe drives this current version of the universe we're living in.

[eon89]

OK, OK, I had no idea you guys hated each other so much! Sheesh. I thought you two had bonded over your idea that murdering atheists is morally acceptable.

If it wasn't for the infighting of the various denominations, I would be scared of Christians starting WW3 with the Muslims...

But, as it sits... I can't seriously believe that the Catholics would team up with the Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, et al...

If there is one thing I am certain... minor differences in the flavour of 'magical space fairy' dogma is a deal breaker for religitards...  You can count on them hating each other as much as the Muslims... (even though they all believe in the same God, including Muslims, which is just another branch of the Abrahamic cult)


P.S. Random Question: Why do the two religitards end every single post with   or "Best Regards"... Is that a common practice among stupid people? (kinda tired of clipping it from every reply)

They really would start a war wouldn't they? If atheists or other groups of people don't bother you why do you feel the need to impose your belief system upon others? That's what I don't understand.

[BitNow]

Yeah - it took me 5 years of studying theology to finally understand that it's all nonsense. That's my opinion, please respect it, I'll respect your and that's it. Don't force your ideas upon others. Go be with Jesus.

Logic - can't fight it. Not in this universe. Which, I for one, believe drives this current version of the universe we're living in.

How can logic be a nonsese?
You studied theology to understand God: you found Logic
After 5 years of studing you realised that logic is nonsense.

On logic is based Science: logic is sense by definition.


Best regards.

[eon89]

Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!

You have free will in deciding to have faith in him or not.



Best regards.

No. You only have free will to decide not to believe in Him. However, if your free will is weak enough, the Holy spirit can work faith in your heart.

So the Holy Spirit works better on the weak minded/spirited? That's really funny.
That would mean that the ones that are atheists have strong mindsets.
Thank you for the compliment. It's very welcome.

[BitNow]

So the Holy Spirit works better on the weak minded/spirited? That's really funny.
That would mean that the ones that are atheists have strong mindsets.
Thank you for the compliment. It's very welcome.

You cannot be an atheist: you studied theology.

You are not making sense (again).


Best regards.

[BADecker]

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus is a myth...

In his book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," Dr. Richard Carrier argues that the euhemerism of the mystical Jesus is a likely explanation of the myth of Jesus.

DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn

There is literally zero historical evidence of this Jesus character... which is VERY suspicious...

Granted, we don't know much about the average guy who lived 2000 years ago, but this was not an average guy... We know lots about famous people of the time, like Julius Caesar...

No historian wrote about Jesus (and some were alive at the time)... Don't try mentioning Josephus, that was 70 years after Jesus died, and a proven forgery of the 3rd century (the text changed 200 years after Josephus wrote it)... There is not a single non-biblical account of "Jesus"

There is not a single object directly related to Jesus... he was a carpenter for 30 years... where are all the chairs and tables made by Jesus?  He must have made tens of thousands of wooden objects if he was a carpenter...

Jesus is a conglomeration of various myths which had been floating around the Mediterranean region for centuries... its quite well documented

And again, +1 for science. But I'm sure the rock guy will find another irrelevant, nothing to do with reality argument to answer. Because he wants to "save us". I mean, no one asked him to, because from what I'm seeing people are asking to be left alone, but no. He has a mission. He's a rock. Stubborn as a rock. Mind as a rock? Let us ponder on this brothers and sisters.

Science is absolutely great. God made it, and we get to use it. It proves God, and it proves those who say that God does not exist to be liars. Up with God and science. Down with those who believe science theory is the truth.

You've said a lot of things but still haven't seen any concrete proof. You've said that you've proven something but I've only seen words. Show us the proof man. God exists because God exists is not proof. It's just you saying "God exists".
And I say "Star Wars exists and it's great!".

Just for you, friend. I'll say it again, and I have said it many times before. But you will have to think about it a little.

There are 3 points that prove the existence of God. There may be more. But these 3 will do it.
1. Cause and effect, which is really an expansion on Newton's 3rd Law.
2. Complex universe.
3. Universal entropy.


Cause and effect almost proves God all by itself. Consider that everything operates by cause and effect. Nothing that exists or acts, exists or acts except that something causes it to exist or act. This is basic, foundational science. And it is a law - Newton's 3rd - because it is evident all over the place in everything, and there has been nothing found that refutes it (although there are some guesses and theories that might refute it).

In other words, things happen because something made them happen, and we see nothing that started things happening in the first place.

How great universal cause and effect is, can be shown by the example of the pool/billiards professional. The pool professional announces what his shot is going to be, and the pocket the ball is going to toll into. Then he takes his shot. He hits the cue ball, which hits a second ball, which hits a third ball, which hits a fourth ball, which knocks the fifth ball into the prescribed pocket. This professional is quite good.

Whatever caused the universe, bumped untold numbers of electrons, and all kinds of other particles, and all kinds of energies, so that they bumped other electrons and things and energies, some 13 billion years ago (if scientists are near correct), which cause 13 billions of years of countless countless cause and effect reactions, that resulted in the complexity of mankind, and the complexity of the rest of the universe.

A good pool shark might be able to do the 5-ball thing now and again. If it was the Big Bang that started the universe, the Big Bang was so extremely smart that it made great complexity, including mankind and his mind - and spirit and soul if you believe in those things - after what seem to be 13 billion years of seemingly random cause and effect actions (which absolutely could not be random to make the complexity). If they were random, prehistoric man would have made jet planes long ago, and modern living would be a whole lot different.

Think of it. Think of all the photons that were caused, and all the activities they caused by their actions. And we are only talking about the simple universe that we know exists through astronomy. What about all the dimensional activity that we barely know anything about? All of it operating through cause and effect set off by whatever started everything going some 13 billion years ago (if you want to believe the accuracy of the accepted age of the earth).

This whole thing was pre-programmed! We see nothing other than cause and effect making things happen. And now, after 13 billion years, that cause and effect makes gigantic complexity. Whatever makes this complexity, must be even more complex... must have super-complex mind and spirit and intelligence to do things so far beyond what a pool shark could do.

When you add the fact of universal entropy (as far as we can see, and without being able to see anything opposite of entropy), Whatever the Thing was that started all this, doesn't seem to be doing much in a great way right now. Cause and effect suggests that it all was stated way back in the beginning.

The thing that started everything going in the pre-programmed fashion that it exists in, fits our definition of the word "God." In fact, our word "God" is way too limited to comprehend what the Being must be like. Yes, Being. Because He/It made us beings, and therefore had to be at least a being to comprehend what we would be like today, from the vantage point of 13 billion years ago.

Think about this, because my little writing here in no way does God justice. Volumes could be written expressing what I have said here. And it is all withing the realm of our scientific understanding.

You keep talking about things that are in nature, but still nothing concrete, real, that I can see beyond doubt.

Probably, a form of Roman concrete was first observed in nature before it was developed by the Romans into what they used in most of their building structures. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_concrete.

Practice thinking and meditating. Start taking brain nutrients. Blueberries are said to regrow brain cells.

Once you have done these things for about a year, come back here and read this stuff again. It should make more sense to you by then.

[eon89]

The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?

Because Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.


Best regards.

As usual, we have to fear the Lord. That's not right - ruling through fear. That's the rule of the jungle. The most powerful rules. There was no need for laws and free will. Fear always works best.

[BitNow]

The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?

Because Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.


Best regards.

As usual, we have to fear the Lord. That's not right - ruling through fear. That's the rule of the jungle. The most powerful rules. There was no need for laws and free will. Fear always works best.

If you want to be Wise you need to work: work is called fearing the Lord in Theological sense.

You could live stupid all your life: I won't blame you for that.

Best regards.

[BADecker]

Validity of the new testament is attested by tradition and eye reports? I mean you're joking right?

Much (maybe most) of the New Testament is eye-witness reports. The validity comes about because of the fact that it exists as it does, being backed by people who hang onto tradition (Christians of Israelite ancestry) more than they hold onto life itself. Their tradition is that the New Testament is truth.

The validity comes about because of the fact that it exists as it does??
What does that even mean?
Something is because something is? The fact that the Harry Potter exists (it is written) doesn't mean the accounts in it are true.
And tradition and word of mouth are not proof.

The "as it does" part includes the history of it. As I have mentioned in a previous post, we now have fragments of the New Testament that go back to before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

[eon89]

Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Have you read that little header above each of the gospels?

When were they written, according to your own bible? (many bibles give dates)

The earliest (Mark) is supposedly written 40 years after "Jesus" died, the latter ones as late as 140AD, over 100 years after Jesus died... now add 20 years since they were not children when they met Jesus...

Given the average lifespan was around 30 years at the time, I find it hard to believe that these 60-140 year old men wrote accurate accounts of what happened 40-100 years earlier...

How well do you remember events from 40+ years ago?

Assuming that the headers accurately mean what you say that they do, with God nothing is impossible. The Holy spirit can bring all memory alive in those that He wants to.

This is the sh*t I've heard all of my life: when you give logical, irrefutable proof to a religious nut, the only argument they have is: anything is possible with God. And that's it.

[eon89]

I'm sure Jesus is alive in heaven but He's not here on earth. And we, here, on earth, deal in real, objective, palpable things.

Can we at least agree on the God of the Old Testament before coming to the one in the New Testament?


Best regards.

So there are two different Gods? Well well - things get interesting.

[eon89]

The validity comes about because of the fact that it exists as it does??
What does that even mean?
Something is because something is? The fact that the Harry Potter exists (it is written) doesn't mean the accounts in it are true.
And tradition and word of mouth are not proof.

I quote that.

Can we agree on the God of the Old Testament: is the God of the Old Testament the same of all 3 monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam)?


Best regards.

As a philosophical experiment I will agree that theoretically all religions worship the same God using different names for it.

[BitNow]

This is the sh*t I've heard all of my life: when you give logical, irrefutable proof to a religious nut, the only argument they have is: anything is possible with God. And that's it.

"To study Theology you need to become a priest."
If you did studied Theology and now you are an atheist it means that your Faith was not strong enough.

That will put you will all the other sinners so called atheists.


Best regards.

[eon89]

Let me tell you something, as a theology major, that is: theology is nonsense. And I can and am allowed to say that because mine is an informed opinion. I'm not just talking out of my ass. And after 5 years my opinion (doesn't have to be yours too) is that it's just a bunch of hooey. How easy it is to make nonsense up, make people believe it, and then live out of people's ignorance. It's genius!

Perhaps if you had been a spiritual major, all that theology would have made some sense to you. Too bad. All that training, and what good did it do you. Essentially none... at least in the ways that are worth anything of eternal value.

Go study science with a focus on finding out how cause and effect, complex universe, and universal entropy combine to prove the existence of God. Then go back and review your theological training. You just might come to understand that even you can be saved for eternal life in pleasure and joy.

Yeah - it took me 5 years of studying theology to finally understand that it's all nonsense. That's my opinion, please respect it, I'll respect your and that's it. Don't force your ideas upon others. Go be with Jesus.

In Hell you will be saying for eternity, "Please God, let that guy force faith in you on me."

If God is so powerful and full of mercy and love He will forgive me, because I'm small and limited and He is all powerful. If not then He is spiteful and keeps spite like a small child.