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Author Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion?  (Read 897422 times)
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January 19, 2016, 07:55:36 PM
 #4001

“THE ALL is MIND; The Universe is Mental.”–The Kybalion.

One of the greatest minds of the 20th century recognised this ancient wisdom
Quote
Universe is the aggregate of all humanity's consciously apprehended and communicated non simultaneous and only partially overlapping experiences.
 - Buckminster Fuller

One of the old Hermetic Masters wrote, long ages ago:
Quote
He who grasps the truth of the Mental Nature of the Universe is well advanced on The Path to Mastery
.

THE SEVEN HERMETIC PRINCIPLES.
“The Principles of Truth are Seven; he who knows these, understandingly, possesses the Magic Key before
whose touch all the Doors of the Temple fly open.”–The Kybalion.
The Seven Hermetic Principles, upon which the entire Hermetic Philosophy is based, are
as follows:

I. THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM.
II. THE PRINCIPLE OF CORRESPONDENCE.
III. THE PRINCIPLE OF VIBRATION.
IV. THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY.
V. THE PRINCIPLE OF RHYTHM.
VI. THE PRINCIPLE OF CAUSE AND EFFECT.
VII. THE PRINCIPLE OF GENDER.

These Seven Principles will be discussed and explained as we proceed with these
lessons. A short explanation of each, however, may as well be given at this point.

I. THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM.
“THE ALL is MIND; The Universe is Mental.”–The Kybalion.

This Principle embodies the truth that “All is Mind.” It explains that THE ALL (which is the
Substantial Reality underlying all the outward manifestations and appearances which we
know under the terms of “The Material Universe”; the “Phenomena of Life”; “Matter”;
“Energy”; and in short, all that is apparent to our material senses) is SPIRIT, which in itself is
UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE, but which may be considered and thought of as AN
UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND. It also explains that all the phenomenal world or
universe is simply a Mental Creation of THE ALL, subject to the Laws of Created Things,
and that the universe, as a whole, and in its parts or units, has its existence in the Mind of
THE ALL, in which Mind we “live and move and have our being.” This Principle, by
establishing the Mental Nature of the Universe, easily explains all of the varied mental and
psychic phenomena that occupy such a large portion of the public attention, and which,
without such explanation, are non-understandable and defy scientific treatment. An
understanding of this great Hermetic Principle of Mentalism enables the individual to readily
grasp the laws of the Mental Universe, and to apply the same to his well-being and
advancement. The Hermetic Student is enabled to apply intelligently the great Mental Laws,
instead of using them in a haphazard manner. With the Master-Key in his possession, the
student may unlock the many doors of the mental and psychic temple of knowledge, and
enter the same freely and intelligently. This Principle explains the true nature of “Energy,”
“Power,” and “Matter,” and why and how all these are subordinate to the Mastery of Mind.
One of the old Hermetic Masters wrote, long ages ago: “He who grasps the truth of the
Mental Nature of the Universe is well advanced on The Path to Mastery.” And these words
are as true to-day as at the time they were first written. Without this Master-Key, Mastery is
impossible, and the student knocks in vain at the many doors of The Temple.

II. THE PRINCIPLE OF CORRESPONDENCE.

“As above, so below; as below, so above.”–The Kybalion
This Principle embodies the truth that there is always a Correspondence between the
laws and phenomena of the various planes of Being and Life. The old Hermetic axiom ran in
these words: “As above, so below; as below, so above.” And the grasping of this Principle
gives one the means of solving many a dark paradox, and hidden secret of Nature. There
are planes beyond our knowing, but when we apply the Principle of Correspondence to them
we are able to understand much that would otherwise be unknowable to us. This Principle is
of universal application and manifestation, on the various planes of the material, mental, and
spiritual universe–it is an Universal Law. The ancient Hermetists considered this Principle as
one of the most important mental instruments by which man was able to pry aside the
obstacles which hid from view the Unknown. Its use even tore aside the Veil of Isis to the
extent that a glimpse of the face of the goddess might be caught. Just as a knowledge of the
Principles of Geometry enables man to measure distant suns and their movements, while
seated in his observatory, so a knowledge of the Principle of Correspondence enables Man
to reason intelligently from the Known to the Unknown. Studying the monad, he understands
the archangel.

III. THE PRINCIPLE OF VIBRATION.
“Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates.”–The Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the truth that “everything is in motion”; “everything vibrates”;
“nothing is at rest”; facts which Modern Science endorses, and which each new scientific
discovery tends to verify. And yet this Hermetic Principle was enunciated thousands of years
ago, by the Masters of Ancient Egypt. This Principle explains that the differences between
different manifestations of Matter, Energy, Mind, and even Spirit, result largely from varying
rates of Vibration. From THE ALL, which is Pure Spirit, down to the grossest form of Matter,
all is in vibration–the higher the vibration, the higher the position in the scale. The vibration of
Spirit is at such an infinite rate of intensity and rapidity that it is practically at rest–just as a
rapidly moving wheel seems to be motionless. And at the other end of the scale, there are
gross forms of matter whose vibrations are so low as to seem at rest. Between these poles,
there are millions upon millions of varying degrees of vibration. From corpuscle and electron,
atom and molecule, to worlds and universes, everything is in vibratory motion. This is also
true on the planes of energy and force (which are but varying degrees of vibration); and also
on the mental planes (whose states depend upon vibrations); and even on to the spiritual
planes. An understanding of this Principle, with the appropriate formulas, enables Hermetic
students to control their own mental vibrations as well as those of others. The Masters also
apply this Principle to the conquering of Natural phenomena, in various ways. “He who
understands the Principle of Vibration, has grasped the sceptre of power,” says one of the
old writers.

IV. THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY.
“Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same;
opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all
paradoxes may be reconciled.”–The Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the truth that “everything is dual”; “everything has two poles”;
“everything has its pair of opposites,” all of which were old Hermetic axioms. It explains the
old paradoxes, that have perplexed so many, which have been stated as follows: “Thesis
and antithesis are identical in nature, but different in degree”; “opposites are the same,
differing only in degree”; “the pairs of opposites may be reconciled”; “extremes meet”;
“everything is and isn't, at the same time”; “all truths are but half-truths”; “every truth is half-
false”; “there are two sides to everything,” etc., etc., etc. It explains that in everything there
are two poles, or opposite aspects, and that “opposites” are really only the two extremes of
the same thing, with many varying degrees between them To illustrate: Heat and Cold,
although “opposites,” are really the same thing, the differences consisting merely of degrees
of the same thing. Look at your thermometer and see if you can discover where “heat”
terminates and “cold” begins! There is no such thing as “absolute heat” or “absolute cold”–
the two terms “heat” and “cold” simply indicate varying degrees of the same thing, and that
“same thing” which manifests as “heat” and “cold” is merely a form, variety, and rate of
Vibration. So “heat” and “cold” are simply the “two poles” of that which we call “Heat”–and
the phenomena attendant thereupon are manifestations of the Principle of Polarity. The
same principle manifests in the case of “Light and Darkness,” which are the same thing, the
difference consisting of varying degrees between the two poles of the phenomena. Where
does “darkness” leave off, and “light” begin? What is the difference between “Large and
Small”? Between “Hard and Soft”? Between “Black and White”? Between “Sharp and Dull”?
Between “Noise and Quiet”? Between “High and Low”? Between “Positive and Negative”?
The Principle of Polarity explains these paradoxes, and no other Principle can supersede it.
The same Principle operates on the Mental Plane. Let us take a radical and extreme
example that of “Love and Hate,” two mental states apparently totally different. And yet there
are degrees of Hate and degrees of Love, and a middle point in which we use the terms
“Like or Dislike,” which shade into each other so gradually that sometimes we are at a loss to
know whether we “like” or “dislike” or “neither.” And all are simply degrees of the same thing,
as you will see if you will but think a moment. And, more than this (and considered of more
importance by the Hermetists), it is possible to change the vibrations of Hate to the
vibrations of Love, in one's own mind, and in the minds of others. Many of you, who read
these lines, have had personal experiences of the involuntary rapid transition from Love to
Hate, and the reverse, in your own case and that of others. And you will therefore realize the
possibility of this being accomplished by the use of the Will, by means of the Hermetic
formulas. “Good and Evil” are but the poles of the same thing, and the Hermetist
understands the art of transmuting Evil into Good, by means of an application of the
Principle of Polarity. In short, the “Art of Polarization” becomes a phase of “Mental Alchemy”
known and practiced by the ancient and modern Hermetic Masters. An understanding of the
Principle will enable one to change his own Polarity, as well as that of others, if he will
devote the time and study necessary to master the art.

V. THE PRINCIPLE OF RHYTHM.

“Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum-swing manifests in
everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.”– The Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the truth that in everything there is manifested a measured
motion, to and fro; a flow and inflow; a swing backward and forward; a pendulum-like
movement; a tide-like ebb and flow; a high-tide and low-tide; between the two poles which
exist in accordance with the Principle of Polarity described a moment ago. There is always
an action and a reaction; an advance and a retreat; a rising and a sinking. This is in the
affairs of the Universe, suns, worlds, men, animals, mind, energy, and matter. This law is
manifest in the creation and destruction of worlds; in the rise and fall of nations; in the life of
all things; and finally in the mental states of Man (and it is with this latter that the Hermetists
find the understanding of the Principle most important). The Hermetists have grasped this
Principle, finding its universal application, and have also discovered certain means to
overcome its effects in themselves by the use of the appropriate formulas and methods.
They apply the Mental Law of Neutralization. They cannot annul the Principle, or cause it to
cease its operation, but they have learned how to escape its effects upon themselves to a
certain degree depending upon the Mastery of the Principle. They have learned how to USE
it, instead of being USED BY it. In this and similar methods, consist the Art of the Hermetists.
The Master of Hermetics polarizes himself at the point at which he desires to rest, and then
neutralizes the Rhythmic swing of the pendulum which would tend to carry him to the other
pole. All individuals who have attained any degree of Self-Mastery do this to a certain
degree, more or less unconsciously, but the Master does this consciously, and by the use of
his Will, and attains a degree of Poise and Mental Firmness almost impossible of belief on
the part of the masses who are swung backward and forward like a pendulum. This Principle
and that of Polarity have been closely studied by the Hermetists, and the methods of
counteracting, neutralizing, and USING them form an important part of the Hermetic Mental
Alchemy.

VI. THE PRINCIPLE OF CAUSE AND EFFECT.

“Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its Cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but
a name for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.”–The
Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the fact that there is a Cause for every Effect; an Effect from
every Cause. It explains that: “Everything Happens according to Law”; that nothing ever
“merely happens”; that there is no such thing as Chance; that while there are various planes
of Cause and Effect, the higher dominating the lower planes, still nothing ever entirely
escapes the Law. The Hermetists understand the art and methods of rising above the
ordinary plane of Cause and Effect, to a certain degree, and by mentally rising to a higher
plane they become Causers instead of Effects. The masses of people are carried along,
obedient to environment; the wills and desires of others stronger than themselves; heredity;
suggestion; and other outward causes moving them about like pawns on the Chessboard of
Life. But the Masters, rising to the plane above, dominate their moods, characters, qualities,
and powers, as well as the environment surrounding them, and become Movers instead of
pawns. They help to PLAY THE GAME OF LIFE, instead of being played and moved about
by other wills and environment. They USE the Principle instead of being its tools. The
Masters obey the Causation of the higher planes, but they help to RULE on their own plane.
In this statement there is condensed a wealth of Hermetic knowledge–let him read who can.

VII. THE PRINCIPLE OF GENDER.
“Gender is in everything; everything has its Masculine and Feminine Principles; Gender manifests on all
planes.”–The Kybalion.
VII. THE PRINCIPLE OF GENDER.
This Principle embodies the truth that there is GENDER manifested in everything–the
Masculine and Feminine Principles ever at work. This is true not only of the Physical Plane,
but of the Mental and even the Spiritual Planes. On the Physical Plane, the Principle
manifests as SEX, on the higher planes it takes higher forms, but the Principle is ever the
same. No creation, physical, mental or spiritual, is possible without this Principle. An
understanding of its laws will throw light on many a subject that has perplexed the minds of
men. The Principle of Gender works ever in the direction of generation, regeneration, and
creation. Everything, and every person, contains the two Elements or Principles, or this great
Principle, within it, him or her. Every Male thing has the Female Element also; every Female
contains also the Male Principle. If you would understand the philosophy of Mental and
Spiritual Creation, Generation, and Re-generation, you must understand and study this
Hermetic Principle. It contains the solution of many mysteries of Life. We caution you that
this Principle has no reference to the many base, pernicious and degrading lustful theories,
teachings and practices, which are taught under fanciful titles, and which are a prostitution of
the great natural principle of Gender. Such base revivals of the ancient infamous forms of
Phallicism tend to ruin mind, body and soul, and the Hermetic Philosophy has ever sounded
the warning note against these degraded teachings which tend toward lust, licentiousness,
and perversion of Nature's principles. if you seek such teachings, you must go elsewhere for
them–Hermeticism contains nothing for you along these lines. To the pure, all things are
pure; to the base, all things are base.

http://marjadevries.nl/universelewetten/kybalion.pdf

Here is a great video on the subject that traces this wisdom back to the Ancient Egyptians and warns that all religions have tried to usurp these principles in order to have power over others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTJwgXjb7w

Dont be fooled by religion, trust in your mind and the eternal principles that govern the living universe

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January 19, 2016, 08:02:18 PM
 #4002


The complexity of complexity is indeed beyond our thinking for its complexity. We don't know for a fact that everything was made originally from hydrogen and/or helium. That is theory or assumption.

We don't know the complexity of the forces that combine simple things into complex things. The simple conversion of hydrogen into helium (fusion) is something that, in the past, we needed the complexity of an atomic explosion to accomplish. When we do it these days, in the laboratory, in extremely tiny operations, we need a whole lot of complex equipment to do it.

We have no factual evidence of simple to complex conversion without something more complex causing it to happen.

Smiley

Oooooooooooook...
Well if you go this way we can't discuss anymore ^^

Of course it's a theory, but it's a very solid one. It explains everything we know. It might not be true, in fact the whole science we know is probably wrong, but it explains everything we observe CURRENTLY.

You're actually denying the assumption that Helium and Hydrogene are fusing together in the stars. But spectroscopy allow use to know in a very precise way stars composition. And this theory may be just an assumption, but it explains EXTREMELY WELL the composition of the universe as we observe it. It explains it so well that it is now a worldwide consensus.

I have neither the time nor the energy right now to look deeper in the article you provide about another theory than fusion. You may be right. As I said, we'll probably prove that what we know is wrong in a few decades, that's the main purpose of physic sciences: to be demonstrated wrong and then go further. Maybe your theory explains better the lithium mystery I don't know.

But the theory I'm providing is without any doubt the actual consensus at the moment. So it is a proof in my point of view.
If you need another example of simple things creating something complex then just think about life and evolution: we come from monkeys (not exactly I know but you know what I mean xD), so the complex comes from the simple. Same for most chemical reaction involving fusion, or complex formation.


I know that it is difficult to discuss. And it is difficult to know for fact with our limited abilities.

The point I am trying to make is that complexity does not come about from something simple without a lot of even more complex forces directing it to happen this way. We have no evidence of this anywhere. The best we have are theories or guesses.

The thing that we see all around us when looking for what makes complexity is, greater complexity makes complexity. Since the complexity of human intelligence, awareness, and identity are readily seen all over the place, throughout the whole world, Whatever caused this complexity to happen must have been way more complex in all these areas. The "Whatever" matches the definitions of "God" in our encyclopedias and dictionaries.

Smiley

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January 19, 2016, 11:59:34 PM
 #4003


Purpose indicate a meaning an objective that a group of people have in regarding to something (deity, money, health, other...).

Atheists don't believe in God but they don't have a faith: so the word purpose has no meaning to them.


You know that. I know that. Try explaining that to BADecker.

Look, even if atheist all thought that the universe doesn't have a purpose - not all of them think this way -

Yes, they do. If the universe has a purpose it must have a creator. If you believe in a creator, you're not atheist.

Does an atheist do anything in the universe? Does an atheist dream? Does he make plans? Does he use the things of the universe? For him the universe has a purpose. If it didn't, he would go off and commit suicide out of despair. If he didn't commit suicide out of despair, and the universe didn't have a purpose for him - at least in his own mind - he would have to be a vegetable.

An atheist views himself as god, although he may not recognize that he is doing so. Since he doesn't know much about himself - the way-down-deep human self that he is - yet he believes that he knows, he has a personal religion going.

Smiley

We are talking about different things - the Universe having a purpose, and making your life have a purpose.

So you think that a person can have purpose outside of the universe? Since the person is in the universe, and the purpose is in the person, purpose is also in the universe.


The universe , however, does not consist of one person - which is what you imply if you say that a person's purpose is the same as the universe's purpose.

Furthermore, since people are a product of the universe, and since people have enough intelligence that they can have purpose, the universe that made them has purpose as well. Why? Because nowhere in the universe have we found that complexity is ever made by something that is less complexity. On the contrary. Everything we have found shows that what is produced is at least slightly, bun mostly largely, degraded from what has made it (entropy).

No, sadly you've misunderstood entropy. Everything complex is made by something of less complexity. Entropy doesn't mean things cannot become more complex, it simply makes thermodynamically expensive to create  something ordered from something unordered.

This means that not only does the universe have purpose, but it has intelligence, as well. Such intelligence fits the definition that we have of God. Since an atheist denies God in the face of the fact that we know God exists, the atheist has a religion for himself.

Grant you, this is a simple explanation. If you flesh it out, you will see that it is entirely accurate.

I fleshed it out and found it inaccurate. I think you will too if you give it some thought, and also read a first year chemical engineer's guide to thermodynamics. I have one if you want to borrow it.


An atheist believes his or her life can have a purpose, while the universe does not have a purpose.

How about this example. There are some very small monkeys in the world. We make some of them into pets.

Imagine that you have a small, pet monkey in your hand. The monkey has a peanut in his hand. Do you not also have the peanut in your hand? The universe has purpose, even if it is only your purpose.

No, you have a monkey holding a peanut in your hand. But I think I follow your point. However, a purpose is an abstract idea. The monkey you're holding does not share your purpose.

Right now I'm holding a stone in my hand and I'm hungry. I intend to have lunch. I hope very much that the stone does not share my intention or purpose.


Since one's life is not identical to "the universe", it is possible for one's life to have purpose, but not ones universe.

In the theories of the mega-universe, where there are parallel universes that all occupy the same space, what you say might be true. Why? There is theory that the spirit/soul/identity of each person resides in a separate universe from the spirit/soul/identity of every other person, even though it is expressed on earth in a body that occupies the same universe as all other human bodies.

If this, or something like this, is the fact, it is possible that there are some universes that don't have purpose (of course, only if universes don't have purpose of themselves... a thing that we don't know). Why? Because there might be some people who don't have purpose. Thus, their universe might not have purpose, as well.

As you can see from all this that I have written in this post, atheism is almost definitely a religion.

Smiley

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.



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January 20, 2016, 12:28:30 AM
 #4004


Purpose indicate a meaning an objective that a group of people have in regarding to something (deity, money, health, other...).

Atheists don't believe in God but they don't have a faith: so the word purpose has no meaning to them.


You know that. I know that. Try explaining that to BADecker.

Look, even if atheist all thought that the universe doesn't have a purpose - not all of them think this way -

Yes, they do. If the universe has a purpose it must have a creator. If you believe in a creator, you're not atheist.

Does an atheist do anything in the universe? Does an atheist dream? Does he make plans? Does he use the things of the universe? For him the universe has a purpose. If it didn't, he would go off and commit suicide out of despair. If he didn't commit suicide out of despair, and the universe didn't have a purpose for him - at least in his own mind - he would have to be a vegetable.

An atheist views himself as god, although he may not recognize that he is doing so. Since he doesn't know much about himself - the way-down-deep human self that he is - yet he believes that he knows, he has a personal religion going.

Smiley

We are talking about different things - the Universe having a purpose, and making your life have a purpose.

So you think that a person can have purpose outside of the universe? Since the person is in the universe, and the purpose is in the person, purpose is also in the universe.


The universe , however, does not consist of one person - which is what you imply if you say that a person's purpose is the same as the universe's purpose.

Furthermore, since people are a product of the universe, and since people have enough intelligence that they can have purpose, the universe that made them has purpose as well. Why? Because nowhere in the universe have we found that complexity is ever made by something that is less complexity. On the contrary. Everything we have found shows that what is produced is at least slightly, bun mostly largely, degraded from what has made it (entropy).

No, sadly you've misunderstood entropy. Everything complex is made by something of less complexity. Entropy doesn't mean things cannot become more complex, it simply makes thermodynamically expensive to create  something ordered from something unordered.

This means that not only does the universe have purpose, but it has intelligence, as well. Such intelligence fits the definition that we have of God. Since an atheist denies God in the face of the fact that we know God exists, the atheist has a religion for himself.

Grant you, this is a simple explanation. If you flesh it out, you will see that it is entirely accurate.

I fleshed it out and found it inaccurate. I think you will too if you give it some thought, and also read a first year chemical engineer's guide to thermodynamics. I have one if you want to borrow it.


An atheist believes his or her life can have a purpose, while the universe does not have a purpose.

How about this example. There are some very small monkeys in the world. We make some of them into pets.

Imagine that you have a small, pet monkey in your hand. The monkey has a peanut in his hand. Do you not also have the peanut in your hand? The universe has purpose, even if it is only your purpose.

No, you have a monkey holding a peanut in your hand. But I think I follow your point. However, a purpose is an abstract idea. The monkey you're holding does not share your purpose.

Right now I'm holding a stone in my hand and I'm hungry. I intend to have lunch. I hope very much that the stone does not share my intention or purpose.


Since one's life is not identical to "the universe", it is possible for one's life to have purpose, but not ones universe.

In the theories of the mega-universe, where there are parallel universes that all occupy the same space, what you say might be true. Why? There is theory that the spirit/soul/identity of each person resides in a separate universe from the spirit/soul/identity of every other person, even though it is expressed on earth in a body that occupies the same universe as all other human bodies.

If this, or something like this, is the fact, it is possible that there are some universes that don't have purpose (of course, only if universes don't have purpose of themselves... a thing that we don't know). Why? Because there might be some people who don't have purpose. Thus, their universe might not have purpose, as well.

As you can see from all this that I have written in this post, atheism is almost definitely a religion.

Smiley

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.




By the general dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of "religion," atheism is a religion. But if it is not, it is so close that it might as well be.

The fact that God exists (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg13609627#msg13609627) shows all the more that atheism not only is a religion, but that it is a religion in the direction of a cult.

Smiley

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January 20, 2016, 01:16:45 AM
 #4005

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.


By the general dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of "religion," atheism is a religion. But if it is not, it is so close that it might as well be.

The fact that God exists (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg13609627#msg13609627) shows all the more that atheism not only is a religion, but that it is a religion in the direction of a cult.

Smiley


Way to ignore the entire conversation. I thought you above that sort of thing. I guess you're not going to answer any of my points then? In future don't bring up thermodynamics if you don't really understand it.

There is no fact that proves god's existence. However, if there was such a proof you'd probably be very unhappy. Why? (and I'm sure BitNow would agree with me here)

If god's existence could be proven, there would be no need for Faith. However, Faith is a central part of religion. Without Faith, religion cannot exist.  Therefore if you prove the god of a religion to exist, you have just killed that religion.

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January 20, 2016, 06:52:02 AM
 #4006

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.


By the general dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of "religion," atheism is a religion. But if it is not, it is so close that it might as well be.

The fact that God exists (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg13609627#msg13609627) shows all the more that atheism not only is a religion, but that it is a religion in the direction of a cult.

Smiley


Way to ignore the entire conversation. I thought you above that sort of thing. I guess you're not going to answer any of my points then? In future don't bring up thermodynamics if you don't really understand it.

There is no fact that proves god's existence. However, if there was such a proof you'd probably be very unhappy. Why? (and I'm sure BitNow would agree with me here)

If god's existence could be proven, there would be no need for Faith. However, Faith is a central part of religion. Without Faith, religion cannot exist.  Therefore if you prove the god of a religion to exist, you have just killed that religion.


I'm not sure he's ignoring the whole conversation. It's more that he doesn't accept our scientific observations and theories. Which means it's hard to debate on anything as he points out that all that we present as facts are just theories (which is right but it's the very principle of science, you can't prove anything most of the time, you just elaborate a theory describing perfectly the universe you know until something new blow it up).

But I disagree with the point you're making with faith here. Old gods were believed to be true but also "proven". At the time of ancient Greece, there was no discussion about the existence of gods, the fact that the sun goes up and down was by itself a proof, so be it for the lightning, proof of Zeus wrath.

Faith is an essential part of modern religion because people know there can't be any proof of god's existence, but it was not the case when we had limited knowledge of our world ^^

And I agree with your interpretation of thermodynamics laws. Entropy is a question of energy and order. Nothing to do with complexity. In fact how would you even define complexity?

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January 20, 2016, 09:26:22 AM
 #4007

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.


By the general dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of "religion," atheism is a religion. But if it is not, it is so close that it might as well be.

The fact that God exists (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg13609627#msg13609627) shows all the more that atheism not only is a religion, but that it is a religion in the direction of a cult.

Smiley


Way to ignore the entire conversation. I thought you above that sort of thing. I guess you're not going to answer any of my points then? In future don't bring up thermodynamics if you don't really understand it.
Since you ignored the conversation long ago, I might as well move on to other things, as well.

The point isn't thermodynamics points. The point is thermodynamics result. Nobody knows what the end result of entropy would really look like. But the evidence of it so far is that all things are attempting to coalesce. This means that all things would be dispersed evenly throughout all space and time once entropy became completely effective. Because of the gigantic amount of "reverse entropy" that has been placed in the whole universe by God in creation, complete entropy throughout all the universe might take an extremely long time, especially when you consider that time is dispersing, as well.

Just because you don't like the truth that God exists and that atheism is a religon, doesn't mean you have to continually get off the subject... or would you be unhappy if you didn't?



There is no fact that proves god's existence. However, if there was such a proof you'd probably be very unhappy. Why? (and I'm sure BitNow would agree with me here)

If god's existence could be proven, there would be no need for Faith. However, Faith is a central part of religion. Without Faith, religion cannot exist.  Therefore if you prove the god of a religion to exist, you have just killed that religion.


God's existence is proven by combining universal cause and effect, with complex universe and universal entropy.

As for the faith part you are wrong. For example. Let's imagine that you really exist and that I really know it. If you express to me that you are going to give me $1,000 five days from now, I either have faith that you will do it, partial faith, or no faith.

The existence of God is fact. Believing that He will provide for me based on the examples He as given me so far in life, or based on the things that He has told me through the Bible, is faith.

Smiley

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January 20, 2016, 09:31:33 AM
 #4008

In fact how would you even define complexity?

My mistake. Is it foolish of me to act like I am conversing with complexity that might even be less than that of a rock?

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January 20, 2016, 10:34:54 AM
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In fact how would you even define complexity?

My mistake. Is it foolish of me to act like I am conversing with complexity that might even be less than that of a rock?

Smiley

Complexity is a non scientific term. So I'm asking what you mean by this in case we disagree on the meaning...

You didn't answer my point on evolution. Here something less complex becomes complex.

The monkey becomes human. It means something less complex and less intelligent leads to something of greater intelligence.

So what is your argument now? Evolution is just a theory?

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January 20, 2016, 10:41:45 AM
 #4010

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.


By the general dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of "religion," atheism is a religion. But if it is not, it is so close that it might as well be.

The fact that God exists (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg13609627#msg13609627) shows all the more that atheism not only is a religion, but that it is a religion in the direction of a cult.

Smiley


Way to ignore the entire conversation. I thought you above that sort of thing. I guess you're not going to answer any of my points then? In future don't bring up thermodynamics if you don't really understand it.

Since you ignored the conversation long ago, I might as well move on to other things, as well.


It's sad. At one point I really was trying to understand your point of view. But you change the subject constantly, you don't answer questions and you don't understand logic.

Since we're now at the point that you're just making things up rather than having a conversation, I think I'll just wait for you to try your illogic on new-comers to the thread and just make sure they can see it for what it is.

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January 20, 2016, 11:20:59 AM
 #4011

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.


By the general dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of "religion," atheism is a religion. But if it is not, it is so close that it might as well be.

The fact that God exists (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg13609627#msg13609627) shows all the more that atheism not only is a religion, but that it is a religion in the direction of a cult.

Smiley


Way to ignore the entire conversation. I thought you above that sort of thing. I guess you're not going to answer any of my points then? In future don't bring up thermodynamics if you don't really understand it.

There is no fact that proves god's existence. However, if there was such a proof you'd probably be very unhappy. Why? (and I'm sure BitNow would agree with me here)

If god's existence could be proven, there would be no need for Faith. However, Faith is a central part of religion. Without Faith, religion cannot exist.  Therefore if you prove the god of a religion to exist, you have just killed that religion.


I'm not sure he's ignoring the whole conversation. It's more that he doesn't accept our scientific observations and theories. Which means it's hard to debate on anything as he points out that all that we present as facts are just theories (which is right but it's the very principle of science, you can't prove anything most of the time, you just elaborate a theory describing perfectly the universe you know until something new blow it up).

But I disagree with the point you're making with faith here. Old gods were believed to be true but also "proven". At the time of ancient Greece, there was no discussion about the existence of gods, the fact that the sun goes up and down was by itself a proof, so be it for the lightning, proof of Zeus wrath.

Faith is an essential part of modern religion because people know there can't be any proof of god's existence, but it was not the case when we had limited knowledge of our world ^^

Good point. I meant only modern religions - I was assuming BADecker belonged to a religion that values faith, but I could well be wrong about that.

And I agree with your interpretation of thermodynamics laws. Entropy is a question of energy and order. Nothing to do with complexity. In fact how would you even define complexity?

This thread? Smiley

I just realised that even if gods existed, I'd still do my best to ignore them. Most organised religion seems to me to be like being in a co-dependant relationship with an all-powerful and abusive father figure.

Given the state of the world (and comments of religious followers, especially the ones that suggest mass murder might be an appropriate response to having their point of view challenged) if one of the religions were correct and there *is* an omnipotent god, I'd be immediately taking it to court for crimes against humanity.

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January 20, 2016, 02:34:13 PM
 #4012

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.


By the general dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of "religion," atheism is a religion. But if it is not, it is so close that it might as well be.

The fact that God exists (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg13609627#msg13609627) shows all the more that atheism not only is a religion, but that it is a religion in the direction of a cult.

Smiley


Way to ignore the entire conversation. I thought you above that sort of thing. I guess you're not going to answer any of my points then? In future don't bring up thermodynamics if you don't really understand it.

Since you ignored the conversation long ago, I might as well move on to other things, as well.


It's sad. At one point I really was trying to understand your point of view. But you change the subject constantly, you don't answer questions and you don't understand logic.

Since we're now at the point that you're just making things up rather than having a conversation, I think I'll just wait for you to try your illogic on new-comers to the thread and just make sure they can see it for what it is.


Poor baby. At one point your were really trying... (chuckle).

It's sad that I have answered all your questions over and over, but you simply don't want to accept the answers, which are backed with definitions. Now you want me to do your thinking for you as well.

This is a forum, not a book-writing situation. If you can't or won't think, that's okay. Some of the other people who see these posts will understand. And, essentially, that's all I am after.

Smiley

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January 20, 2016, 09:17:11 PM
 #4013

I wasn't attempting to theorise, just make a logical argument. I can make it even simpler, if you need it.


By the general dictionary and encyclopedia definitions of "religion," atheism is a religion. But if it is not, it is so close that it might as well be.

The fact that God exists (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg13609627#msg13609627) shows all the more that atheism not only is a religion, but that it is a religion in the direction of a cult.

Smiley


Way to ignore the entire conversation. I thought you above that sort of thing. I guess you're not going to answer any of my points then? In future don't bring up thermodynamics if you don't really understand it.

Since you ignored the conversation long ago, I might as well move on to other things, as well.


It's sad. At one point I really was trying to understand your point of view. But you change the subject constantly, you don't answer questions and you don't understand logic.

Since we're now at the point that you're just making things up rather than having a conversation, I think I'll just wait for you to try your illogic on new-comers to the thread and just make sure they can see it for what it is.


Poor baby. At one point your were really trying... (chuckle).

It's sad that I have answered all your questions over and over, but you simply don't want to accept the answers, which are backed with definitions. Now you want me to do your thinking for you as well.

This is a forum, not a book-writing situation. If you can't or won't think, that's okay. Some of the other people who see these posts will understand. And, essentially, that's all I am after.

Smiley

And that right there -- your combative attitude and inability to understand logic or new ideas -- is why discussions with religious people with dogmatic beliefs is so painful.

..and
Quote
(chuckle)
? Are you three years old? Good god man, learn some self control.


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January 20, 2016, 09:55:20 PM
 #4014


And that right there -- your combative attitude and inability to understand logic or new ideas -- is why discussions with religious people with dogmatic beliefs is so painful.


Life is painful, not discussion.

If you cannot face pain and need to discuss to others, bend yourself to others and discussion will be more easy.
"The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility."
-Pro 15:33


Best regards.


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January 20, 2016, 10:12:00 PM
 #4015


And that right there -- your combative attitude and inability to understand logic or new ideas -- is why discussions with religious people with dogmatic beliefs is so painful.


Life is painful, not discussion.

If you cannot face pain and need to discuss to others, bend yourself to others and discussion will be more easy.
"The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility."
-Pro 15:33


Best regards.


Thank you for you kind words.

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January 20, 2016, 10:35:54 PM
 #4016


Thank you for you kind words.

I don't understand your word "kind".

Since we have not the same God: what is kind for you?


Best regards.


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January 20, 2016, 11:34:40 PM
 #4017


Thank you for you kind words.

I don't understand your word "kind".

Since we have not the same God: what is kind for you?


Best regards.

Of course, kind has two meanings so you probably misunderstood. I meant this:

Quote
1. of a good or benevolent nature or disposition, as a person: a kind and loving person.
2. having, showing, or proceeding from benevolence: kind words.
3.indulgent, considerate, or helpful; humane (often followed by to): to be kind to animals.
4. mild; gentle; clement: kind weather.
5. British Dialect. loving; affectionate.


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January 21, 2016, 01:37:24 AM
 #4018

But I disagree with the point you're making with faith here. Old gods were believed to be true but also "proven". At the time of ancient Greece, there was no discussion about the existence of gods, the fact that the sun goes up and down was by itself a proof, so be it for the lightning, proof of Zeus wrath.

Faith is an essential part of modern religion because people know there can't be any proof of god's existence, but it was not the case when we had limited knowledge of our world ^^

Don't know about that. Ancient gods were proven the same way people say current gods are proven. And there was discussion in ancient greece about the existence of gods. Some were even atheists. But atheism was a capital crime so they were persecuted and had to hide. But among theists too there was discussion about what were the explanations for things like the sun, lightning, etc. The view that it could have natural causes wasn't uncommon. Of course anyone going too far with it could be accused of atheism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

"The first fully materialistic philosophy was produced by the atomists Leucippus and Democritus (fifth century BCE), who attempted to explain the formation and development of the world in terms of the chance movements of atoms moving in infinite space."

"Euripides (480–406 BCE), in his play Bellerophon, had the eponymous main character say:

    “Doth some one say that there be gods above?
    There are not; no, there are not. Let no fool,
    Led by the old false fable, thus deceive you.”[13]"

"Aristophanes (ca. 448–380 BCE), known for his satirical style, wrote in his play The Knights: "Shrines! Shrines! Surely you don't believe in the gods. What's your argument? Where's your proof?"[14]"
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January 21, 2016, 10:52:19 AM
 #4019


Of course, kind has two meanings so you probably misunderstood. I meant this:

Quote
1. of a good or benevolent nature or disposition, as a person: a kind and loving person.
2. having, showing, or proceeding from benevolence: kind words.
3.indulgent, considerate, or helpful; humane (often followed by to): to be kind to animals.
4. mild; gentle; clement: kind weather.
5. British Dialect. loving; affectionate.



Define Loving: my God is speaking about love all around in his book.

What is love for you?


Best regards.


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January 21, 2016, 10:58:19 AM
 #4020

But I disagree with the point you're making with faith here. Old gods were believed to be true but also "proven". At the time of ancient Greece, there was no discussion about the existence of gods, the fact that the sun goes up and down was by itself a proof, so be it for the lightning, proof of Zeus wrath.

Faith is an essential part of modern religion because people know there can't be any proof of god's existence, but it was not the case when we had limited knowledge of our world ^^

Don't know about that. Ancient gods were proven the same way people say current gods are proven. And there was discussion in ancient greece about the existence of gods. Some were even atheists. But atheism was a capital crime so they were persecuted and had to hide. But among theists too there was discussion about what were the explanations for things like the sun, lightning, etc. The view that it could have natural causes wasn't uncommon. Of course anyone going too far with it could be accused of atheism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

"The first fully materialistic philosophy was produced by the atomists Leucippus and Democritus (fifth century BCE), who attempted to explain the formation and development of the world in terms of the chance movements of atoms moving in infinite space."

"Euripides (480–406 BCE), in his play Bellerophon, had the eponymous main character say:

    “Doth some one say that there be gods above?
    There are not; no, there are not. Let no fool,
    Led by the old false fable, thus deceive you.”[13]"

"Aristophanes (ca. 448–380 BCE), known for his satirical style, wrote in his play The Knights: "Shrines! Shrines! Surely you don't believe in the gods. What's your argument? Where's your proof?"[14]"

I was trying to speak in a more general way.

Today what phenomenon can we observe to argument in favor of the existence of God? Nothing, the only mystery here is the origin of the creation of the universe. Which is not really a "daily phenomenon".
Thousands of years ago, everyday phenomenons could be explained only by the existence of gods. How could a woman give birth? Gods of fertility. How can the sun shine so bright and go throw the sky? Gods bringing a huge fireball. How storms lightning and volcanic eruptions appear? Gods Gods and Gods.

Of course some had great explanations, it was the case for the most cultivated individuals and lots of scientists and philosophers were probably atheists. But it depends a lot of the period of time you're talking about (because Greek kingdom and Roman Empire cover a long period) and which part of the population.

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