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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3006578 times)
augustocroppo
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October 31, 2013, 11:25:24 PM
 #19321

Why don't you just admit you were wrong, and stop this nonsense?  It is clear that who gets the reward for a block, and who "solves" it are two different questions.  In pool mining, a group of people agree to share block rewards regardless of which individual miner solved the block.  That agreement obviously has no bearing on who actually solved a given block.

If you think "that who gets the reward for a block, and who "solves" it are two different questions", then I am certain you do not comprehend that even in pool "mining" there must be an entity to receive the reward, what is not the pool participant. The reward needs to be transmitted (first transaction) to the entity which "solves" the block. You are failing to understand that the receiver (thus the "solver") it is not the pool participant.
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xyzzy099
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October 31, 2013, 11:27:36 PM
 #19322


A bunch of naive, idealistic blather


The first thing you fail to understand is that this is a business, not a charity.  Get that through your head and the rest of it will make sense.

If you want to buy a miner for me, I will happily point it at any pool of your choosing.   As long as I'm spending MY money on equipment, then I'll point MY equipment on whatever fucking pool I see fit.  If smaller pools want to attract more miners, they should get their asses in gear and improve the pools to make them more attractive for use.  Things like extended stats, DDoS protection, and consistently working payouts (I'm looking at you, Eligius).

If you are so concerned about decentralization, I sure hope you are solo mining.  If you can't walk the walk, then stop trying to talk the talk.

... a comment on this post.  I am not sure a post could have been more skillfully crafted to drive home my point.

This next comment is not meant to be inflammatory, although I understand if you take is so.  It is meant for you to take into account, as a data point while making and employing your business plan.

Centralization is the enemy of this experiment.  "Business men" that mine for profit without regard for the network are not a friend to the experiment if their efforts result in too much centralization (usually a goal of a for-profit company).

Those of us that see this as a threat (such as ASICminer & a couple of other Chinese companies) to the eco system, are working hard to drive up the diff with de-centralized hashing in an effort to make your business less-viable.  The hope is that this will cause fewer people to sink huge sums of money into centralized operations such as yours if the returns are simply not there.

I hope it works.  I am doing my part.

If bitcoin mining requires that it be done by good men with good intentions, it will be dead before you have time to be disappointed.

If you really are a bitcoin enthusiast, you'd better hope bitcoin is more hardy than that.  It is the nature of humans to act in their self interest.  No matter how your philosophy chooses to view this inclination, it will not change it.

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October 31, 2013, 11:28:08 PM
 #19323


A bunch of naive, idealistic blather


The first thing you fail to understand is that this is a business, not a charity.  Get that through your head and the rest of it will make sense.

If you want to buy a miner for me, I will happily point it at any pool of your choosing.   As long as I'm spending MY money on equipment, then I'll point MY equipment on whatever fucking pool I see fit.  If smaller pools want to attract more miners, they should get their asses in gear and improve the pools to make them more attractive for use.  Things like extended stats, DDoS protection, and consistently working payouts (I'm looking at you, Eligius).

If you are so concerned about decentralization, I sure hope you are solo mining.  If you can't walk the walk, then stop trying to talk the talk.

Yes sir, I solo mine.  I also have helped build a considerable number of pools.  I absolutely "walk the walk" Mr. business man.  I also mine with an assortment of just about every ASIC ever produced since the GPU/FGPA farms were killed off; to include a growing number of KnC pieces.

I have no problem making money, or forming a business around it.  But carelessly killing the cow you are milking is a poor business model.
Very interesting..  May I ask what your total hashpower is, and how often do you find a block?
I never even considered solo mining... How does one try?



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LetItRide
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xyzzy099
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October 31, 2013, 11:30:19 PM
 #19324

Why don't you just admit you were wrong, and stop this nonsense?  It is clear that who gets the reward for a block, and who "solves" it are two different questions.  In pool mining, a group of people agree to share block rewards regardless of which individual miner solved the block.  That agreement obviously has no bearing on who actually solved a given block.

If you think "that who gets the reward for a block, and who "solves" it are two different questions", then I am certain you do not comprehend that even in pool "mining" there must be an entity to receive the reward, what is not the pool participant. The reward needs to be transmitted (first transaction) to the entity which "solves" the block. You are failing to understand that the receiver (thus the "solver") it is not the pool participant.

Ok, you are just typing nonsense in lieu of admitting that your narrow semantic point was just plain wrong.

Please feel free to continue to be wrong without my continuing to point it out.


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October 31, 2013, 11:32:45 PM
 #19325

p2pool is a distributed pool and extremely easy to set up, you don't even need to set up a database.

Plus it even allows the pool owner to merged mine. (That is, run your own copy of p2pool and you get all the coins you choose to merge as well as your share of the bitcoins.)

So basically no matter whether you are a large miner or a small miner you can very simply run p2pool for yourself and thus get the variable-amelioration of a pool while still using a decentralised solution instead of a centralising pool.

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texaslabrat
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October 31, 2013, 11:40:17 PM
 #19326


A bunch of naive, idealistic blather


The first thing you fail to understand is that this is a business, not a charity.  Get that through your head and the rest of it will make sense.

If you want to buy a miner for me, I will happily point it at any pool of your choosing.   As long as I'm spending MY money on equipment, then I'll point MY equipment on whatever fucking pool I see fit.  If smaller pools want to attract more miners, they should get their asses in gear and improve the pools to make them more attractive for use.  Things like extended stats, DDoS protection, and consistently working payouts (I'm looking at you, Eligius).

If you are so concerned about decentralization, I sure hope you are solo mining.  If you can't walk the walk, then stop trying to talk the talk.

... a comment on this post.  I am not sure a post could have been more skillfully crafted to drive home my point.

This next comment is not meant to be inflammatory, although I understand if you take is so.  It is meant for you to take into account, as a data point while making and employing your business plan.

Centralization is the enemy of this experiment.  "Business men" that mine for profit without regard for the network are not a friend to the experiment if their efforts result in too much centralization (usually a goal of a for-profit company).

Those of us that see this as a threat (such as ASICminer & a couple of other Chinese companies) to the eco system, are working hard to drive up the diff with de-centralized hashing in an effort to make your business less-viable.  The hope is that this will cause fewer people to sink huge sums of money into centralized operations such as yours if the returns are simply not there.

I hope it works.  I am doing my part.

If the project cannot stand on its own two feet without special care and feeding, it will die and deservedly so.  So as to loop this to an on-topic tangent...taking KnC miners into consideration the fact that anyone with a large enough capital base can purchase such a device (or multiples of devices) means that no longer is bitcoin given the luxury of being coddled by nurturing hobbyists who will do anything (including sacrificing their own profit margin) in order to make sure the network survives.  Bitcoin is now in the limelight of the world, and the Big Boys are entering the game wearing their Big Boy Pants and playing by Big Boy Rules.  ASIC companies such as KnC will fill whatever demand is out there in order to line their pockets (and rightfully so if you believe in free enterprise).  People buying these machines will implement them in such a way as to maximize their returns on investment (classical definition).  Those who stand in the way of that will get squished.  Those who work towards filling niches that are complimentary to that will be rewarded (ie alternative pools that people actually want to use, developing a less cumbersome way to use p2pool-type technologies that appeal to the masses, etc).  That's the reality, and trying to pontificate from some "moral high ground" about some kind of socialistic operational theory is less than helpful.  That type of input, if actually a majority-held one in the community, would only hasten bitcoin's demise as the people putting in the capital that is making bitcoin relevant would stop doing so and the whole house of cards would collapse.  Bitcoin only has value because people THINK it has value.  If you tell people it only has value as long as they are willing to lose money (either directly or through less-than-optimal operations that decrease potential profits versus other investments) through participating in it...how long until it stops having value?

So again..want to help?  Work on those things that are symbiotic with the large-scale capitalism that bitcoin is meant to help foster beyond the bounds of government oversight and regulation.  Telling people they shouldn't be trying to maximize their investment in it is the same as telling people that they shouldn't invest, period...which is not helpful.  

Now that KnC has a proven ASIC design, I expect them to begin flooding the market in 2014 with as many as they can churn out in order to cash in before the big difficulty crunch where average power costs equal expected fiat-converted returns and extending that run with a transition to a more power-efficient gen2 product.  Ditto bitfury and their distribution outlets.  That's the trajectory of the market...the only thing an individual can do is choose on which side of the bullet he wants to stand.  The best thing for the overall market is to encourage more (and bigger) investment that will drive the price of BTC upwards to extend the useful life of the individually-owned miner, as well as encourage more mainstream adoption of the currency as a storage of value.

And as for "centralized operations such as mine"...in the bitcoin mining realm I'm just another guy with miners at home trying to get them to pay for themselves and maybe a little extra to the greatest extent that I can manage. The "big business" portion is in the markets which should be outside your moral concern.  I've already left a lot of potential gains on the table by mining in the first place instead of just using those funds to buy more bitcoin directly and you want me (and others) to sacrifice even MORE for some "code of ethics" or whatever.  LOL.

The notion that I should somehow sacrifice "for the greater good" when it's clear that any concession that I might make would just be pocketed as profit by somebody else is ludicrous. But hey, if that's your bag...go for it.  The rest of us thank you for your contribution.  And make sure and buy as many KnC rigs as you possibly can to keep them out of the hands of those evil profit-mongers like me.  I'm sure KnC might even send you a Christmas card if you buy enough Smiley
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October 31, 2013, 11:41:22 PM
 #19327

So do you guys think we will get some kind of compensation for them being late?

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October 31, 2013, 11:42:56 PM
 #19328

So do you guys think we will get some kind of compensation for them being late?

I doubt it, unless we as a group somehow enforce it.

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October 31, 2013, 11:44:30 PM
 #19329

Make a Windows GUI front end for p2pool, then maybe computer-illiterate Windows users will use it, which will be good for everyone.

Maybe you could even sell it, since Windows users are often actually used to paying for software and maybe even prefer stuff they paid for to free stuff.

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October 31, 2013, 11:46:03 PM
 #19330


A bunch of naive, idealistic blather


The first thing you fail to understand is that this is a business, not a charity.  Get that through your head and the rest of it will make sense.

If you want to buy a miner for me, I will happily point it at any pool of your choosing.   As long as I'm spending MY money on equipment, then I'll point MY equipment on whatever fucking pool I see fit.  If smaller pools want to attract more miners, they should get their asses in gear and improve the pools to make them more attractive for use.  Things like extended stats, DDoS protection, and consistently working payouts (I'm looking at you, Eligius).

If you are so concerned about decentralization, I sure hope you are solo mining.  If you can't walk the walk, then stop trying to talk the talk.

Yes sir, I solo mine.  I also have helped build a considerable number of pools.  I absolutely "walk the walk" Mr. business man.  I also mine with an assortment of just about every ASIC ever produced since the GPU/FGPA farms were killed off; to include a growing number of KnC pieces.

I have no problem making money, or forming a business around it.  But carelessly killing the cow you are milking is a poor business model.
Very interesting..  May I ask what your total hashpower is, and how often do you find a block?
I never even considered solo mining... How does one try?



Whereas I do solo mine, that is actually not what I would recommend for most hobbyists.  I do highly recommend that you find a pool outside the top 5 to support.  There are some great smaller pools out there.

As an example I would point to the guys at Give Me Coins.

Most mining business ventures benefit from creating their own pool.  KnC and ASICminer are examples.

If a person/business is trying to "hide" mining's, machines can be spread among different pools to keep large hash rates from attracting unwanted attention.  Again, smaller pools have advantages to the network and in the end, us all.

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October 31, 2013, 11:49:21 PM
 #19331


If the project cannot stand on its own two feet without special care and feeding, it will die and deservedly so.  So as to loop this to an on-topic tangent...taking KnC miners into consideration the fact that anyone with a large enough capital base can purchase such a device (or multiples of devices) means that no longer is bitcoin given the luxury of being coddled by nurturing hobbyists who will do anything (including sacrificing their own profit margin) in order to make sure the network survives.  Bitcoin is now in the limelight of the world, and the Big Boys are entering the game wearing their Big Boy Pants and playing by Big Boy Rules.  ASIC companies such as KnC will fill whatever demand is out there in order to line their pockets (and rightfully so if you believe in free enterprise).  People buying these machines will implement them in such a way as to maximize their returns on investment (classical definition).  Those who stand in the way of that will get squished.  Those who work towards filling niches that are complimentary to that will be rewarded (ie alternative pools that people actually want to use, developing a less cumbersome way to use p2pool-type technologies that appeal to the masses, etc).  That's the reality, and trying to pontificate from some "moral high ground" about some kind of socialistic operational theory is less than helpful.  That type of input, if actually a majority-held one in the community, would only hasten bitcoin's demise as the people putting in the capital that is making bitcoin relevant would stop doing so and the whole house of cards would collapse.  Bitcoin only has value because people THINK it has value.  If you tell people it only has value as long as they are willing to lose money (either directly or through less-than-optimal operations that decrease potential profits versus other investments) through participating in it...how long until it stops having value?

So again..want to help?  Work on those things that are symbiotic with the large-scale capitalism that bitcoin is meant to help foster beyond the bounds of government oversight and regulation.  Telling people they shouldn't be trying to maximize their investment in it is the same as telling people that they shouldn't invest, period...which is not helpful.  

Now that KnC has a proven ASIC design, I expect them to begin flooding the market in 2014 with as many as they can churn out in order to cash in before the big difficulty crunch where average power costs equal expected fiat-converted returns and extending that run with a transition to a more power-efficient gen2 product.  Ditto bitfury and their distribution outlets.  That's the trajectory of the market...the only thing an individual can do is choose on which side of the bullet he wants to stand.  The best thing for the overall market is to encourage more (and bigger) investment that will drive the price of BTC upwards to extend the useful life of the individually-owned miner, as well as encourage more mainstream adoption of the currency as a storage of value.

And as for "centralized operations such as mine"...in the bitcoin mining realm I'm just another guy with miners at home trying to get them to pay for themselves and maybe a little extra to the greatest extent that I can manage. The "big business" portion is in the markets which should be outside your moral concern.  I've already left a lot of potential gains on the table by mining in the first place instead of just using those funds to buy more bitcoin directly and you want me (and others) to sacrifice even MORE for some "code of ethics" or whatever.  LOL.

The notion that I should somehow sacrifice "for the greater good" when it's clear that any concession that I might make would just be pocketed as profit by somebody else is ludicrous. But hey, if that's your bag...go for it.  The rest of us thank you for your contribution.  And make sure and buy as many KnC rigs as you possibly can to keep them out of the hands of those evil profit-mongers like me.  I'm sure KnC might even send you a Christmas card if you buy enough Smiley

+1

Well said.  There is a lot of truth in this post that people need to try to understand.  Even if it isn't what you want to believe, the nature of the world is what it is.  You can make it better - but you need to learn to work with reality, not against it.


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November 01, 2013, 12:03:00 AM
 #19332

The responsibility of miners and pools in maintaining balance.

So... I am sure there is plenty of KnCminer customers that are doing this right know. Their expectation of a reward for the capital invested to "maintaining balance" is completely valid. I fail to understand what is your problem with people expecting to receive back the capital they invested to acquire such "responsibility".

Quote
Why would you or I ever want to give one person or entity that much power and control over _our_ Bitcoin network?  Has anyone here ever heard of a countermeasure failing (BP Oil in the Gulf)?

What the fuck? Are you joking, right?

 Cheesy

How can you demand people to be responsible but at the same time powerless? What exactly you expect? As more hash rate is added to the Bitcoin network (power), more secure it becomes against potential threats (responsible).

Quote
There are so many viable pools to choose from, and if you are a business it is more profitable to build your own pool (fees go to you).  If you pack heavy hash power, which most in this forum do, it makes so much more sense to  be a part of the solution rather then a part of the problem.

But... But... That would be greedy. I thought the goal was to be a not greedy Bitcoin "miner"...
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November 01, 2013, 12:16:58 AM
 #19333

(...)

Reality check, mate!

 Grin
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Personal text my ass....


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November 01, 2013, 12:39:44 AM
 #19334

Where is the best place to see your error rate or hardware errors? On my BTC Guild dashboard there is some info there that says accepted shares and the number is 64,972 and the percent is %99.45. Does this mean I have low hardware error rate?

I can also load up cgminer, but I get lost looking at all those numbers there.



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November 01, 2013, 12:43:24 AM
 #19335


A bunch of naive, idealistic blather




actually you are being naive and short sighted but thankfully it is mostly bark and not bite concerning bitcoin...  lest we all practice strip mining, deforestation, toxic dumping, etc all to make a few more shekels before the other guy

you speak of someone who dreams of being rich, but no idea of wealth




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November 01, 2013, 12:47:57 AM
 #19336


A bunch of naive, idealistic blather


The first thing you fail to understand is that this is a business, not a charity.  Get that through your head and the rest of it will make sense.

If you want to buy a miner for me, I will happily point it at any pool of your choosing.   As long as I'm spending MY money on equipment, then I'll point MY equipment on whatever fucking pool I see fit.  If smaller pools want to attract more miners, they should get their asses in gear and improve the pools to make them more attractive for use.  Things like extended stats, DDoS protection, and consistently working payouts (I'm looking at you, Eligius).

If you are so concerned about decentralization, I sure hope you are solo mining.  If you can't walk the walk, then stop trying to talk the talk.

... a comment on this post.  I am not sure a post could have been more skillfully crafted to drive home my point.

This next comment is not meant to be inflammatory, although I understand if you take is so.  It is meant for you to take into account, as a data point while making and employing your business plan.

Centralization is the enemy of this experiment.  "Business men" that mine for profit without regard for the network are not a friend to the experiment if their efforts result in too much centralization (usually a goal of a for-profit company).

Those of us that see this as a threat (such as ASICminer & a couple of other Chinese companies) to the eco system, are working hard to drive up the diff with de-centralized hashing in an effort to make your business less-viable.  The hope is that this will cause fewer people to sink huge sums of money into centralized operations such as yours if the returns are simply not there.

I hope it works.  I am doing my part.

If the project cannot stand on its own two feet without special care and feeding, it will die and deservedly so.  So as to loop this to an on-topic tangent...taking KnC miners into consideration the fact that anyone with a large enough capital base can purchase such a device (or multiples of devices) means that no longer is bitcoin given the luxury of being coddled by nurturing hobbyists who will do anything (including sacrificing their own profit margin) in order to make sure the network survives.  Bitcoin is now in the limelight of the world, and the Big Boys are entering the game wearing their Big Boy Pants and playing by Big Boy Rules.  ASIC companies such as KnC will fill whatever demand is out there in order to line their pockets (and rightfully so if you believe in free enterprise).  People buying these machines will implement them in such a way as to maximize their returns on investment (classical definition).  Those who stand in the way of that will get squished.  Those who work towards filling niches that are complimentary to that will be rewarded (ie alternative pools that people actually want to use, developing a less cumbersome way to use p2pool-type technologies that appeal to the masses, etc).  That's the reality, and trying to pontificate from some "moral high ground" about some kind of socialistic operational theory is less than helpful.  That type of input, if actually a majority-held one in the community, would only hasten bitcoin's demise as the people putting in the capital that is making bitcoin relevant would stop doing so and the whole house of cards would collapse.  Bitcoin only has value because people THINK it has value.  If you tell people it only has value as long as they are willing to lose money (either directly or through less-than-optimal operations that decrease potential profits versus other investments) through participating in it...how long until it stops having value?

So again..want to help?  Work on those things that are symbiotic with the large-scale capitalism that bitcoin is meant to help foster beyond the bounds of government oversight and regulation.  Telling people they shouldn't be trying to maximize their investment in it is the same as telling people that they shouldn't invest, period...which is not helpful.  

Now that KnC has a proven ASIC design, I expect them to begin flooding the market in 2014 with as many as they can churn out in order to cash in before the big difficulty crunch where average power costs equal expected fiat-converted returns and extending that run with a transition to a more power-efficient gen2 product.  Ditto bitfury and their distribution outlets.  That's the trajectory of the market...the only thing an individual can do is choose on which side of the bullet he wants to stand.  The best thing for the overall market is to encourage more (and bigger) investment that will drive the price of BTC upwards to extend the useful life of the individually-owned miner, as well as encourage more mainstream adoption of the currency as a storage of value.

And as for "centralized operations such as mine"...in the bitcoin mining realm I'm just another guy with miners at home trying to get them to pay for themselves and maybe a little extra to the greatest extent that I can manage. The "big business" portion is in the markets which should be outside your moral concern.  I've already left a lot of potential gains on the table by mining in the first place instead of just using those funds to buy more bitcoin directly and you want me (and others) to sacrifice even MORE for some "code of ethics" or whatever.  LOL.

The notion that I should somehow sacrifice "for the greater good" when it's clear that any concession that I might make would just be pocketed as profit by somebody else is ludicrous. But hey, if that's your bag...go for it.  The rest of us thank you for your contribution.  And make sure and buy as many KnC rigs as you possibly can to keep them out of the hands of those evil profit-mongers like me.  I'm sure KnC might even send you a Christmas card if you buy enough Smiley

Well stated. Aside from the snark, I think you've described my position fairly well. I don't think that SeanRaney is wrong altogether, but I do think he's seeing a small piece of a big thing.

All things done by living beings are done for perceived profit. Whether that perception is ACCURATE is open for debate, but nobody does something deliberately to harm themselves unless they are disturbed or defective. Even then, often, it's to profit in some manner. The cutter gains the profit of attention. The "altruist" gains the profit of adulation, and the capitalist gains tangible wealth. That is not in any way an exhaustive list. When profits are regulated by fiat and other control mechanisms, two things happen. Those with the pull and wherewithal buy the regulators, and those without either stop producing or go somewhere more conducive to doing business.

The pools themselves ARE the result of such capitalistic forces. CPU mining became too difficult, so people found a way to pool their resources. That this led to additional problems and possibilities is just the way things are. We do not invent advanced technologies in one step. It took us millennia to go from writing to computers. Every advancement creates new problems, some anticipated, some not. Free markets eventually solve the problems, as they cry out for solution!

In this particular instance, as has already been pointed out, you already have p2pool, which my knowledge of is not good. But it does address the problem of pools being centralized (to the extent that they are). If this becomes significantly a problem, other solutions or variations of that one will supplant the "pool" model, or compete with it on equal footing. As I mentioned, I do know one strength of p2pool over the poolserver model, but I do not know it's other strengths and weaknesses. I am certain, however, that it has not AS YET reached a point where the miners in general think it's benefits outweigh it's deficits. I know this because the vast majority of miners are mining from the pools.

Frankly, since the mining community at large IS aware of the issue, and because at least so far the major pool operators have proven to be honorable men, I don't see where there is much impetus to go beyond that model right now. On the other hand, with newer and faster devices coming in waves, that could change overnight. Given the talent pool that I have personally observed in this thread alone, I don't see a realistic chance of a successful 51 percent attack on the bitcoin network ever again. I am very new to mining. I am more of a student at the moment. I think I could change pools without having a failover set in CGminer in under a minute. Can't comment to the other miners because I haven't used them. While the pools have a lot of perceived power, it is illusory. A pool with no-one connected to it is a waste of electricity, nothing else. The very fact of that is a built in safety and check on the greed of the operators.

I think SeanRaney's concerns are valid, but I think they have been adequately addressed, both by his way of doing things, and by the way this market is working.

Edit for bold. Mistyped the tag. Oops.

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Biomech
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November 01, 2013, 12:51:57 AM
 #19337

Make a Windows GUI front end for p2pool, then maybe computer-illiterate Windows users will use it, which will be good for everyone.

Maybe you could even sell it, since Windows users are often actually used to paying for software and maybe even prefer stuff they paid for to free stuff.

-MarkM-


Not all of us are computer illiterate. I like windows. I also like linux, but find it cumbersome for a great many things that windows is easy on. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. \

NOT having a Windows GUI based p2pool interface is a weakness of that protocol. Because no matter how much the linux and/or Mac fanboys would like this to be untrue, the vast majority of home computers are running windows. Excluding the biggest market out of prejudice or idealism is very akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

I personally like the donationware model for such things. "register for .xx and this nag goes away and I continue development" kind of thing.

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November 01, 2013, 12:58:32 AM
 #19338


A bunch of naive, idealistic blather




actually you are being naive and short sighted but thankfully it is mostly bark and not bite concerning bitcoin...  lest we all practice strip mining, deforestation, toxic dumping, etc all to make a few more shekels before the other guy

you speak of someone who dreams of being rich, but no idea of wealth




LOL um ok.  Without comparing balance sheets here, I speak of reality.  Unless you want to completely ignore what is happening, you had better open your eyes as to what is going on and what is coming in the very near future.  There's no crying in bitcoin..those who want to hang on to some "gentleman's agreement" methodology for the "greater good" are just lining the pockets of someone else who has no such scruples.  Once you make exchange easy with "real" money, the mister nice guy days are over.  It's just going to get worse as bigger and bigger fish are introduced into the pond.

As for the "lest we practice yadda yadda"...the ONLY reason those things aren't a regular occurrence in most of the Western Industrialized world is because CENTRALIZED REGULATORY ENTITIES prevent it.  You know, the kind of thing that bitcoin prides itself in not having.  I encourage you to take a trip to China sometime and see what having next to no environmental regulations looks like in the modern world.

So, in summary....if you don't want a centralized organization calling the shots...be prepared for bare-knuckle no-hold-barred capitalism to rule the day and all that entails.  Appealing to some moral high ground "for the greater good" is going to do exactly dick when there is money to be made.  If the bitcoin network ultimately fails because of folks treating it as an actual investment vehicle with all the profit optimization strategies that implies...then it was not suitable to be used on the open market and deserves to die.  Simple as that.

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November 01, 2013, 01:07:36 AM
 #19339

I think the days of hobby mining are coming to an end. Everything got so commercial and much more expensive. The days of using a plastic crate, wooden sticks, velcro, and duct tape I will surely miss. These days it's all commercial driven hardware coming from big game players. Seriously, in 2014 you will seriously need a huge amount of hashing power to make anything. There will always be that segment of people that have free electricity and space. Those are the ones that will keep upgrading and buying more hashing power. And even then its still like being addicted to drugs..you are always just chasing the high. You never really "cash out" and make good money. If only I bought tons of bitcoin a couple years ago. I have the money to buy another miner, but I don't trust KNC's hardware from all the issues I've been reading about. Right now where can you buy a miner and have it in your hands a few days later? You can't. Even now its still a completely pre-order business. Will we ever get the day we can browser a website and order a miner and actually have it ship the next day? Will that ever happen? Has hashfast started shipping? I want to buy another miner, but seriously there's not one company I trust out there or who has anything available soon. I was checking out Hashfast and their miner protection program...its nonsense because you are just paying extra up front for hardware you may need later on. I'm on the fence with making an order with KNC, but right now I may not break even with the Saturn I have now. Who would you order a miner from? Any real quality ones out there?


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November 01, 2013, 01:15:30 AM
 #19340

Anyone else not happy with 0.98 on a Saturn?

I ran it for a few days and my temperatures were slightly higher and my hashrate was lower. (252gh instead of 284gh)

I switched back just now and within an hour I am back up to 284gh.
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