Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[markm]

Make a Windows GUI front end for p2pool, then maybe computer-illiterate Windows users will use it, which will be good for everyone.

Maybe you could even sell it, since Windows users are often actually used to paying for software and maybe even prefer stuff they paid for to free stuff.

-MarkM-

[seanrarey]

A bunch of naive, idealistic blather

The first thing you fail to understand is that this is a business, not a charity.  Get that through your head and the rest of it will make sense.

If you want to buy a miner for me, I will happily point it at any pool of your choosing.   As long as I'm spending MY money on equipment, then I'll point MY equipment on whatever fucking pool I see fit.  If smaller pools want to attract more miners, they should get their asses in gear and improve the pools to make them more attractive for use.  Things like extended stats, DDoS protection, and consistently working payouts (I'm looking at you, Eligius).

If you are so concerned about decentralization, I sure hope you are solo mining.  If you can't walk the walk, then stop trying to talk the talk.

Yes sir, I solo mine.  I also have helped build a considerable number of pools.  I absolutely "walk the walk" Mr. business man.  I also mine with an assortment of just about every ASIC ever produced since the GPU/FGPA farms were killed off; to include a growing number of KnC pieces.

I have no problem making money, or forming a business around it.  But carelessly killing the cow you are milking is a poor business model.

Very interesting..  May I ask what your total hashpower is, and how often do you find a block?
I never even considered solo mining... How does one try?

Whereas I do solo mine, that is actually not what I would recommend for most hobbyists.  I do highly recommend that you find a pool outside the top 5 to support.  There are some great smaller pools out there.

As an example I would point to the guys at Give Me Coins.

Most mining business ventures benefit from creating their own pool.  KnC and ASICminer are examples.

If a person/business is trying to "hide" mining's, machines can be spread among different pools to keep large hash rates from attracting unwanted attention.  Again, smaller pools have advantages to the network and in the end, us all.

[xyzzy099]

If the project cannot stand on its own two feet without special care and feeding, it will die and deservedly so.  So as to loop this to an on-topic tangent...taking KnC miners into consideration the fact that anyone with a large enough capital base can purchase such a device (or multiples of devices) means that no longer is bitcoin given the luxury of being coddled by nurturing hobbyists who will do anything (including sacrificing their own profit margin) in order to make sure the network survives.  Bitcoin is now in the limelight of the world, and the Big Boys are entering the game wearing their Big Boy Pants and playing by Big Boy Rules.  ASIC companies such as KnC will fill whatever demand is out there in order to line their pockets (and rightfully so if you believe in free enterprise).  People buying these machines will implement them in such a way as to maximize their returns on investment (classical definition).  Those who stand in the way of that will get squished.  Those who work towards filling niches that are complimentary to that will be rewarded (ie alternative pools that people actually want to use, developing a less cumbersome way to use p2pool-type technologies that appeal to the masses, etc).  That's the reality, and trying to pontificate from some "moral high ground" about some kind of socialistic operational theory is less than helpful.  That type of input, if actually a majority-held one in the community, would only hasten bitcoin's demise as the people putting in the capital that is making bitcoin relevant would stop doing so and the whole house of cards would collapse.  Bitcoin only has value because people THINK it has value.  If you tell people it only has value as long as they are willing to lose money (either directly or through less-than-optimal operations that decrease potential profits versus other investments) through participating in it...how long until it stops having value?

So again..want to help?  Work on those things that are symbiotic with the large-scale capitalism that bitcoin is meant to help foster beyond the bounds of government oversight and regulation.  Telling people they shouldn't be trying to maximize their investment in it is the same as telling people that they shouldn't invest, period...which is not helpful.  

Now that KnC has a proven ASIC design, I expect them to begin flooding the market in 2014 with as many as they can churn out in order to cash in before the big difficulty crunch where average power costs equal expected fiat-converted returns and extending that run with a transition to a more power-efficient gen2 product.  Ditto bitfury and their distribution outlets.  That's the trajectory of the market...the only thing an individual can do is choose on which side of the bullet he wants to stand.  The best thing for the overall market is to encourage more (and bigger) investment that will drive the price of BTC upwards to extend the useful life of the individually-owned miner, as well as encourage more mainstream adoption of the currency as a storage of value.

And as for "centralized operations such as mine"...in the bitcoin mining realm I'm just another guy with miners at home trying to get them to pay for themselves and maybe a little extra to the greatest extent that I can manage. The "big business" portion is in the markets which should be outside your moral concern.  I've already left a lot of potential gains on the table by mining in the first place instead of just using those funds to buy more bitcoin directly and you want me (and others) to sacrifice even MORE for some "code of ethics" or whatever.  LOL.

The notion that I should somehow sacrifice "for the greater good" when it's clear that any concession that I might make would just be pocketed as profit by somebody else is ludicrous. But hey, if that's your bag...go for it.  The rest of us thank you for your contribution.  And make sure and buy as many KnC rigs as you possibly can to keep them out of the hands of those evil profit-mongers like me.  I'm sure KnC might even send you a Christmas card if you buy enough

+1

Well said.  There is a lot of truth in this post that people need to try to understand.  Even if it isn't what you want to believe, the nature of the world is what it is.  You can make it better - but you need to learn to work with reality, not against it.

[augustocroppo]

The responsibility of miners and pools in maintaining balance.

So... I am sure there is plenty of KnCminer customers that are doing this right know. Their expectation of a reward for the capital invested to "maintaining balance" is completely valid. I fail to understand what is your problem with people expecting to receive back the capital they invested to acquire such "responsibility".

Why would you or I ever want to give one person or entity that much power and control over _our_ Bitcoin network?  Has anyone here ever heard of a countermeasure failing (BP Oil in the Gulf)?

What the fuck? Are you joking, right?

 

How can you demand people to be responsible but at the same time powerless? What exactly you expect? As more hash rate is added to the Bitcoin network (power), more secure it becomes against potential threats (responsible).

There are so many viable pools to choose from, and if you are a business it is more profitable to build your own pool (fees go to you).  If you pack heavy hash power, which most in this forum do, it makes so much more sense to  be a part of the solution rather then a part of the problem.

But... But... That would be greedy. I thought the goal was to be a not greedy Bitcoin "miner"...

[augustocroppo]

(...)

Reality check, mate!

 

[opentoe]

Where is the best place to see your error rate or hardware errors? On my BTC Guild dashboard there is some info there that says accepted shares and the number is 64,972 and the percent is %99.45. Does this mean I have low hardware error rate?

I can also load up cgminer, but I get lost looking at all those numbers there.

[DPoS]

A bunch of naive, idealistic blather

actually you are being naive and short sighted but thankfully it is mostly bark and not bite concerning bitcoin...  lest we all practice strip mining, deforestation, toxic dumping, etc all to make a few more shekels before the other guy

you speak of someone who dreams of being rich, but no idea of wealth

[Biomech]

A bunch of naive, idealistic blather

The first thing you fail to understand is that this is a business, not a charity.  Get that through your head and the rest of it will make sense.

If you want to buy a miner for me, I will happily point it at any pool of your choosing.   As long as I'm spending MY money on equipment, then I'll point MY equipment on whatever fucking pool I see fit.  If smaller pools want to attract more miners, they should get their asses in gear and improve the pools to make them more attractive for use.  Things like extended stats, DDoS protection, and consistently working payouts (I'm looking at you, Eligius).

If you are so concerned about decentralization, I sure hope you are solo mining.  If you can't walk the walk, then stop trying to talk the talk.

... a comment on this post.  I am not sure a post could have been more skillfully crafted to drive home my point.

This next comment is not meant to be inflammatory, although I understand if you take is so.  It is meant for you to take into account, as a data point while making and employing your business plan.

Centralization is the enemy of this experiment.  "Business men" that mine for profit without regard for the network are not a friend to the experiment if their efforts result in too much centralization (usually a goal of a for-profit company).

Those of us that see this as a threat (such as ASICminer & a couple of other Chinese companies) to the eco system, are working hard to drive up the diff with de-centralized hashing in an effort to make your business less-viable.  The hope is that this will cause fewer people to sink huge sums of money into centralized operations such as yours if the returns are simply not there.

I hope it works.  I am doing my part.

If the project cannot stand on its own two feet without special care and feeding, it will die and deservedly so.  So as to loop this to an on-topic tangent...taking KnC miners into consideration the fact that anyone with a large enough capital base can purchase such a device (or multiples of devices) means that no longer is bitcoin given the luxury of being coddled by nurturing hobbyists who will do anything (including sacrificing their own profit margin) in order to make sure the network survives.  Bitcoin is now in the limelight of the world, and the Big Boys are entering the game wearing their Big Boy Pants and playing by Big Boy Rules.  ASIC companies such as KnC will fill whatever demand is out there in order to line their pockets (and rightfully so if you believe in free enterprise).  People buying these machines will implement them in such a way as to maximize their returns on investment (classical definition).  Those who stand in the way of that will get squished.  Those who work towards filling niches that are complimentary to that will be rewarded (ie alternative pools that people actually want to use, developing a less cumbersome way to use p2pool-type technologies that appeal to the masses, etc).  That's the reality, and trying to pontificate from some "moral high ground" about some kind of socialistic operational theory is less than helpful.  That type of input, if actually a majority-held one in the community, would only hasten bitcoin's demise as the people putting in the capital that is making bitcoin relevant would stop doing so and the whole house of cards would collapse.  Bitcoin only has value because people THINK it has value.  If you tell people it only has value as long as they are willing to lose money (either directly or through less-than-optimal operations that decrease potential profits versus other investments) through participating in it...how long until it stops having value?

So again..want to help?  Work on those things that are symbiotic with the large-scale capitalism that bitcoin is meant to help foster beyond the bounds of government oversight and regulation.  Telling people they shouldn't be trying to maximize their investment in it is the same as telling people that they shouldn't invest, period...which is not helpful.  

Now that KnC has a proven ASIC design, I expect them to begin flooding the market in 2014 with as many as they can churn out in order to cash in before the big difficulty crunch where average power costs equal expected fiat-converted returns and extending that run with a transition to a more power-efficient gen2 product.  Ditto bitfury and their distribution outlets.  That's the trajectory of the market...the only thing an individual can do is choose on which side of the bullet he wants to stand.  The best thing for the overall market is to encourage more (and bigger) investment that will drive the price of BTC upwards to extend the useful life of the individually-owned miner, as well as encourage more mainstream adoption of the currency as a storage of value.

And as for "centralized operations such as mine"...in the bitcoin mining realm I'm just another guy with miners at home trying to get them to pay for themselves and maybe a little extra to the greatest extent that I can manage. The "big business" portion is in the markets which should be outside your moral concern.  I've already left a lot of potential gains on the table by mining in the first place instead of just using those funds to buy more bitcoin directly and you want me (and others) to sacrifice even MORE for some "code of ethics" or whatever.  LOL.

The notion that I should somehow sacrifice "for the greater good" when it's clear that any concession that I might make would just be pocketed as profit by somebody else is ludicrous. But hey, if that's your bag...go for it.  The rest of us thank you for your contribution.  And make sure and buy as many KnC rigs as you possibly can to keep them out of the hands of those evil profit-mongers like me.  I'm sure KnC might even send you a Christmas card if you buy enough

Well stated. Aside from the snark, I think you've described my position fairly well. I don't think that SeanRaney is wrong altogether, but I do think he's seeing a small piece of a big thing.

All things done by living beings are done for perceived profit. Whether that perception is ACCURATE is open for debate, but nobody does something deliberately to harm themselves unless they are disturbed or defective. Even then, often, it's to profit in some manner. The cutter gains the profit of attention. The "altruist" gains the profit of adulation, and the capitalist gains tangible wealth. That is not in any way an exhaustive list. When profits are regulated by fiat and other control mechanisms, two things happen. Those with the pull and wherewithal buy the regulators, and those without either stop producing or go somewhere more conducive to doing business.

The pools themselves ARE the result of such capitalistic forces. CPU mining became too difficult, so people found a way to pool their resources. That this led to additional problems and possibilities is just the way things are. We do not invent advanced technologies in one step. It took us millennia to go from writing to computers. Every advancement creates new problems, some anticipated, some not. Free markets eventually solve the problems, as they cry out for solution!

In this particular instance, as has already been pointed out, you already have p2pool, which my knowledge of is not good. But it does address the problem of pools being centralized (to the extent that they are). If this becomes significantly a problem, other solutions or variations of that one will supplant the "pool" model, or compete with it on equal footing. As I mentioned, I do know one strength of p2pool over the poolserver model, but I do not know it's other strengths and weaknesses. I am certain, however, that it has not AS YET reached a point where the miners in general think it's benefits outweigh it's deficits. I know this because the vast majority of miners are mining from the pools.

Frankly, since the mining community at large IS aware of the issue, and because at least so far the major pool operators have proven to be honorable men, I don't see where there is much impetus to go beyond that model right now. On the other hand, with newer and faster devices coming in waves, that could change overnight. Given the talent pool that I have personally observed in this thread alone, I don't see a realistic chance of a successful 51 percent attack on the bitcoin network ever again. I am very new to mining. I am more of a student at the moment. I think I could change pools without having a failover set in CGminer in under a minute. Can't comment to the other miners because I haven't used them. While the pools have a lot of perceived power, it is illusory. A pool with no-one connected to it is a waste of electricity, nothing else. The very fact of that is a built in safety and check on the greed of the operators.

I think SeanRaney's concerns are valid, but I think they have been adequately addressed, both by his way of doing things, and by the way this market is working.

Edit for bold. Mistyped the tag. Oops.

[Biomech]

Make a Windows GUI front end for p2pool, then maybe computer-illiterate Windows users will use it, which will be good for everyone.

Maybe you could even sell it, since Windows users are often actually used to paying for software and maybe even prefer stuff they paid for to free stuff.

-MarkM-

Not all of us are computer illiterate. I like windows. I also like linux, but find it cumbersome for a great many things that windows is easy on. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. \

NOT having a Windows GUI based p2pool interface is a weakness of that protocol. Because no matter how much the linux and/or Mac fanboys would like this to be untrue, the vast majority of home computers are running windows. Excluding the biggest market out of prejudice or idealism is very akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

I personally like the donationware model for such things. "register for .xx and this nag goes away and I continue development" kind of thing.

[texaslabrat]

A bunch of naive, idealistic blather

actually you are being naive and short sighted but thankfully it is mostly bark and not bite concerning bitcoin...  lest we all practice strip mining, deforestation, toxic dumping, etc all to make a few more shekels before the other guy

you speak of someone who dreams of being rich, but no idea of wealth

LOL um ok.  Without comparing balance sheets here, I speak of reality.  Unless you want to completely ignore what is happening, you had better open your eyes as to what is going on and what is coming in the very near future.  There's no crying in bitcoin..those who want to hang on to some "gentleman's agreement" methodology for the "greater good" are just lining the pockets of someone else who has no such scruples.  Once you make exchange easy with "real" money, the mister nice guy days are over.  It's just going to get worse as bigger and bigger fish are introduced into the pond.

As for the "lest we practice yadda yadda"...the ONLY reason those things aren't a regular occurrence in most of the Western Industrialized world is because CENTRALIZED REGULATORY ENTITIES prevent it.  You know, the kind of thing that bitcoin prides itself in not having.  I encourage you to take a trip to China sometime and see what having next to no environmental regulations looks like in the modern world.

So, in summary....if you don't want a centralized organization calling the shots...be prepared for bare-knuckle no-hold-barred capitalism to rule the day and all that entails.  Appealing to some moral high ground "for the greater good" is going to do exactly dick when there is money to be made.  If the bitcoin network ultimately fails because of folks treating it as an actual investment vehicle with all the profit optimization strategies that implies...then it was not suitable to be used on the open market and deserves to die.  Simple as that.

[opentoe]

I think the days of hobby mining are coming to an end. Everything got so commercial and much more expensive. The days of using a plastic crate, wooden sticks, velcro, and duct tape I will surely miss. These days it's all commercial driven hardware coming from big game players. Seriously, in 2014 you will seriously need a huge amount of hashing power to make anything. There will always be that segment of people that have free electricity and space. Those are the ones that will keep upgrading and buying more hashing power. And even then its still like being addicted to drugs..you are always just chasing the high. You never really "cash out" and make good money. If only I bought tons of bitcoin a couple years ago. I have the money to buy another miner, but I don't trust KNC's hardware from all the issues I've been reading about. Right now where can you buy a miner and have it in your hands a few days later? You can't. Even now its still a completely pre-order business. Will we ever get the day we can browser a website and order a miner and actually have it ship the next day? Will that ever happen? Has hashfast started shipping? I want to buy another miner, but seriously there's not one company I trust out there or who has anything available soon. I was checking out Hashfast and their miner protection program...its nonsense because you are just paying extra up front for hardware you may need later on. I'm on the fence with making an order with KNC, but right now I may not break even with the Saturn I have now. Who would you order a miner from? Any real quality ones out there?

[CMMPro]

Anyone else not happy with 0.98 on a Saturn?

I ran it for a few days and my temperatures were slightly higher and my hashrate was lower. (252gh instead of 284gh)

I switched back just now and within an hour I am back up to 284gh.

[Mogumodz]

Make a Windows GUI front end for p2pool, then maybe computer-illiterate Windows users will use it, which will be good for everyone.

Maybe you could even sell it, since Windows users are often actually used to paying for software and maybe even prefer stuff they paid for to free stuff.

-MarkM-

Not all of us are computer illiterate. I like windows. I also like linux, but find it cumbersome for a great many things that windows is easy on. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. \

NOT having a Windows GUI based p2pool interface is a weakness of that protocol. Because no matter how much the linux and/or Mac fanboys would like this to be untrue, the vast majority of home computers are running windows. Excluding the biggest market out of prejudice or idealism is very akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

I personally like the donationware model for such things. "register for .xx and this nag goes away and I continue development" kind of thing.

Setting up a p2pool on windows is really easy. If it's a struggle then simply ask for help in the P2pool thread, or find a solid pool node and stick with it until you feel happy running a node. I'd even be up for getting as many people running P2Pool nodes as possible on Windows or Linux if they have dedicated hardware laying around.

But really, as with any pool, it's not just as simple as set it up and forget. It's all fine running a node only for yourself and losing money because your cat tripped over a cable or bitcoind crashes and you're away from the server, but just ask any pool operator what happens when anything looks or behaves out of the ordinary in their users minds.

P2pool does and has had windows binaries for a long time now. The front end you speak of is simple a webpage for the stats which multiple people now have tweaked and suited to their own needs with simple html tricks.

[texaslabrat]

Anyone else not happy with 0.98 on a Saturn?

I ran it for a few days and my temperatures were slightly higher and my hashrate was lower. (252gh instead of 284gh)

I switched back just now and within an hour I am back up to 284gh.

I've been extremely happy with .98, to be honest (though on jupiter, not saturn).  Are you sure your hashrate is actually lower at the pool (you need to watch it for 12+ hours to eliminate variance) or are you comparing the values as reported by cgminer and/or the gui page.  Because if it is the latter...you need to realize that the numbers reported there pre-.98 are including the hardware errors and I believe the rejected shares and therefore is artificially high compared to what is being submitted to the pool.

[CMMPro]

Identical at the pool....very strange that it was seemingly worse for me.

I ran for 48 hours on 0.98, my error rate was 4% at 252gh.

I just switched back to 0.97 and I have 2.5% at 284gh.

Both rates were very steady....the temperature was 2-3 degrees hotter on 0.98 but I don't see that as a big difference.

I fully power cycled the unit each time I changed the firmware.

[kronut]

Identical at the pool....very strange that it was seemingly worse for me.

I ran for 48 hours on 0.98, my error rate was 4% at 252gh.

I just switched back to 0.97 and I have 2.5% at 284gh.

Both rates were very steady....the temperature was 2-3 degrees hotter on 0.98 but I don't see that as a big difference.

I fully power cycled the unit each time I changed the firmware.

It's not just you, I had to go back to .97 with cgminer 3.6.6 to regain performance on my Saturn.

.98 disabled 7 of my cores constantly, gave 1% higher HW errors and dropped my WU considerably, the pool also showed 8-10gh/s less avg.

[DPoS]

A bunch of naive, idealistic blather

actually you are being naive and short sighted but thankfully it is mostly bark and not bite concerning bitcoin...  lest we all practice strip mining, deforestation, toxic dumping, etc all to make a few more shekels before the other guy

you speak of someone who dreams of being rich, but no idea of wealth

LOL um ok.  Without comparing balance sheets here, I speak of reality.  Unless you want to completely ignore what is happening, you had better open your eyes as to what is going on and what is coming in the very near future.  There's no crying in bitcoin..those who want to hang on to some "gentleman's agreement" methodology for the "greater good" are just lining the pockets of someone else who has no such scruples.  Once you make exchange easy with "real" money, the mister nice guy days are over.  It's just going to get worse as bigger and bigger fish are introduced into the pond.

As for the "lest we practice yadda yadda"...the ONLY reason those things aren't a regular occurrence in most of the Western Industrialized world is because CENTRALIZED REGULATORY ENTITIES prevent it.  You know, the kind of thing that bitcoin prides itself in not having.  I encourage you to take a trip to China sometime and see what having next to no environmental regulations looks like in the modern world.

So, in summary....if you don't want a centralized organization calling the shots...be prepared for bare-knuckle no-hold-barred capitalism to rule the day and all that entails.  Appealing to some moral high ground "for the greater good" is going to do exactly dick when there is money to be made.  If the bitcoin network ultimately fails because of folks treating it as an actual investment vehicle with all the profit optimization strategies that implies...then it was not suitable to be used on the open market and deserves to die.  Simple as that.

you blur my words into another argument... what I said, was all your talk of 'free market vs centralization' doesn't affect bitcoin as much as other industry practices that you ballyhoo about

which in itself is liberating for bitcoin

and you're head is stuck pretty deep if you think there are a lot of free markets anywhere these days. The 'open market' you are talking about is cronyism not capitalism.
 

 

[texaslabrat]

you blur my words into another argument... what I said, was all your talk of 'free market vs centralization' doesn't affect bitcoin as much as other industry practices that you ballyhoo about

which in itself is liberating for bitcoin

and you're head is stuck pretty deep if you think there are a lot of free markets anywhere these days. The 'open market' you are talking about is cronyism not capitalism.
 

 

I'm speaking specifically of bitcoin as a free market in case you missed it (which you apparently did).  And it is..for now.  Hence, the cutthroat profit-at-all-costs tactics that are beginning to surface and will continue to do so.  And no, I didn't blur anything..you made an analogy, and I pointed out how the analogy you gave actually proved my point.  So, thanks for that

Liberating..sure...if you are willing to participate with the same attitude as all the other sharks now entering the pool.  Guppies will be eaten.

[DPoS]

Liberating..sure...if you are willing to participate with the same attitude as all the other sharks now entering the pool.  Guppies will be eaten.

Don't forget that I'm the one who keeps reminding people of all the 'cost basis' tricks the higher stakes brings into mining.  The old BTC in / BTC out ROI is dead.

But you keep saying it is some pure capitalism at play when it isn't... that's the fairytale for the students.  It is high level financial acrobatics on good days, and pure scam/thief on bad ones that bring the new players cost basis well below the old guard

My point was that bitcoin survives either way..  other industries can go to hell pretty quick in that regard

 

[texaslabrat]

Liberating..sure...if you are willing to participate with the same attitude as all the other sharks now entering the pool.  Guppies will be eaten.

Don't forget that I'm the one who keeps reminding people of all the 'cost basis' tricks the higher stakes brings into mining.  The old BTC in / BTC out ROI is dead.

But you keep saying it is some pure capitalism at play when it isn't... that's the fairytale for the students.  It is high level financial acrobatics on good days, and pure scam/thief on bad ones that bring the new players cost basis well below the old guard

My point was that bitcoin survives either way..  other industries can go to hell pretty quick in that regard

 

But that's exactly the point you seem to be missing....at the moment the bitcoin ecosystem IS the textbook example of pure capitalism.  There are no constraints on entry into the market beyond the ability to pay.  What's your definition of capitalism that bitcoin doesn't fit?    It's those who pine for the "let's all do what's right for the network" who are tying to resist that reality.  Those days are over. They died when bitcoin spiked during the Cyprus panic and the Big Boys took notice. If bitcoin survives despite this..then it was suitable for use as a decentralized global currency.  If its treatment in this pure capitalism environment causes it to implode due to over-centralization in the pursuit of profit, then it was always destined to fail due to human nature.  Only if by doing the "right thing" that profit can be maximized at the same time will bitcoin survive.  It's possible, but it will take a lot of work to de-incentivize the consolidation of hashing power and the production of mining equipment.  And the work needed to accomplish THAT should ideally be profitable itself to make sure someone actually does it.

And by "survive" I mean bitcoin remains meaningfully relevant in the global economy.  There are plenty of examples of technically "functioning" alt-coins which are not relevant and thus have "died".