Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware

[kostagr33k]

@hoss

http://btc.anapaapps.com/


interesting BTC calc with % increases

[1714961740]

1714961740

[1714961740]

1714961740

[1714961740]

1714961740

[Boxman90]

So, steamboat, what's the tally? Have you gotten a batch refunded yet? Or are you still waiting for them to deliver so you can build your rigs?

[bigbeninlondon]

I can't request a refund until I know how much I can get back on assembly. 

[silicont]

I can't request a refund until I know how much I can get back on assembly. 

Perhaps this sentiment is being used to keep more orders unrefunded.  No updates, unknowns, and uncertainty is preventing some refunds being submitted.  I can't see the entire assembly cost being lost--if it were, what would the assembly crew be paid with when/if the chips come in?

[mjmvisser]

OK, here's how I see things:
1. We can refund 95% of the chip cost.
2. Steamboat has already purchased materials and entered into agreements to produce boards, leased and begun work on a hosting center, paid for a large number of custom heat-sinks, and probably purchased lots of other equipment.
3. Many other people are in the same situation, including BKKCoins, who has personally invested a great deal of time and money into producing the K16 and K1 boards.

The chip cost can be refunded, because that comes from Yifu. The other costs are not reversible.

Our options at this point are:
1. roll up the whole thing and individually take a loss
2. enter into costly and ultimately fruitless litigation
3. retarget the K16 board for another mining chip

I'm not in favour of giving up. I've personally invested in 128 K16 boards, paid from previous mining income. I'm sure lots of others would prefer to (at the very least) break even on this venture.

Litigation is only worthwhile when you're up against an entity with lots of money. Otherwise, only the lawyers benefit. Besides, the terms of the purchase agreement were crystal clear: this was a risky venture with many unknowns. This is not Steamboat's fault. This probably isn't even Yifu's fault. We don't know what happened.

That leaves retargeting for another chip. Most of the BOM probably won't change, and the most expensive parts (the PIC, the regs) almost certainly won't change. If we collectively get refunded for all batches, we'll be in a good position to negotiate for bulk purchase from a chip producer that is actually shipping product. At least one other group has retargeted to Bitfury's offering. I think we should take a more wait-and-see approach and not make the same mistake by targeting a chip that isn't shipping. We're not going to make an easy buck at this point, so we might as well be rational about how we're going to proceed.

[hephaist0s]

Looks like Yifu is in the process of screwing his customers...

So sorry, your order is in shipping-processing.

Too effing bad for jOO...

Jeezuz....this is amazingly bad.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=289551.new#new

Yifu did this before with batch 3. One group buy organizer had ordered 50 Avalons, but then when they were delayed and the refund option was offered, he asked for the refund. He got no response, inquired repeatedly and then weeks later all 50 units shipped. When they arrived he just had to make the best of it. This feels like what is happening to us -- Yifu processed some refunds for chips, but when they received more chips they just said, "Eh, ship them and let the customers deal with it."

[bigtimespaghetti]

Looks like Yifu is in the process of screwing his customers...

So sorry, your order is in shipping-processing.

Too effing bad for jOO...

Jeezuz....this is amazingly bad.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=289551.new#new

Yifu did this before with batch 3. One group buy organizer had ordered 50 Avalons, but then when they were delayed and the refund option was offered, he asked for the refund. He got no response, inquired repeatedly and then weeks later all 50 units shipped. When they arrived he just had to make the best of it. This feels like what is happening to us -- Yifu processed some refunds for chips, but when they received more chips they just said, "Eh, ship them and let the customers deal with it."

Damn. If this is the case I will be disappointed but sadly not surprised.

[andrewsg]

By and large if you look at all the other big groupbuy organizers they have all been refunded for all the orders they requested - they have also finished refunding individual buyers. Sebastian had refunded 40,000 chip orders, zefir another 30,000 and then moved on to a bitfury group buy. Problem here is without communication we don't know where we stand.

[nightengale]

By and large if you look at all the other big groupbuy organizers they have all been refunded for all the orders they requested - they have also finished refunding individual buyers. Sebastian had refunded 40,000 chip orders, zefir another 30,000 and then moved on to a bitfury group buy. Problem here is without communication we don't know where we stand.

This!!!  ^^^

Please tell us what's going on SB!!!

[mtbitcoin]

I can't request a refund until I know how much I can get back on assembly. 

+1

[shep80]

Lack of updates is really a problem here.

When things were going great, updates were almost constant.

Now that there are challenges, there are no - or at best very infrequent - updates.

[alfabitcoin]

Something to read from bkk thread....
Steamboat silence is very bad!!!

I don't think everyone needs to.abandon.  For the sake of community development. I'd say we finish the project.  If a handful exist  that's okay. I understand people are MIA as well as nerve racked.  That is why I believe wr need fresh hands and eyes on this project. 

Absolutely! I'm not advocating we abandon the project. But there's no point in continuing the design using first-generation Avalon chips. They are obsolete. At this point, with an assembled board in hand, if you mine forever, you will not make back the cost of the miner. However, we can retarget for a different chip and, at the very least, break even.

The design is fully functional, the only thing that needs to be finished is firmware.
I have two boards hashing with only one side (with 8 chips) at about 3Ghps, ~3% ER (without USB ferrite beads), chips overclocked to 375MHz with no overvolt. Other side on each board has few chips that do not respond, but this is because those chips were poorly soldered. And on every board it's different side. Tried to fix it yesterday, but was unsuccessful, and now waiting for solder wick and isopropylalcohol.
I've also tried some modifications in firmware for 16 chips, but it wasn't really usable. The board with that did hash faster, but had around 20% ER - which is a firmware and poorly assembled chips problem, not the design one. Now waiting with this until I fix the other side, then will continue working on FW.
Tried also to contact one of the companies, that claimed to have fully working board (with firmware that hash with all 16 chips), but they did not respond. Anyone here can guess why.
About the ROI, it really is gone now, but you have to take into account, that BTC price will likely go up, so even if you lose now, you can gain later. Especially if you've already made an investment in the HW, chips etc.

Edit:
And about changing the HW for next gen Avalon chips (or any other chips), who is going to make this? Bkk seems to be gone (probably get sick of all the events regarding chips delivery, companies taking advantage of opensource project and giving nothing back) and there is noone (even in the group of those companies, which started their business on this) who is able to make this change.

Is it not possible for you guys to use TerraHash's stuff? They said they have working k16's with less than 1% error rates.

What Terrahash stuff? They have used stuff that Bkk made as opensource. To be absolutely clear on this, I've wrote to them about mine board with 4 chips assembled hashing at 400MHz with around 0.6% ER, when they were asking me via PM about the changes in HW I made to get it working. They were not able to fix even this for the whole time. They claimed even here on this forum, that the design is wrong.
Later, when they did claimed at 5th of September, that they do have a working board, and the only issue there is I2C, I've wrote them again, asking what firmware changes do they made to hash with all 16 chips and that low error rate.
They didn't even bother to wrote me back.
So what do they actually have? Nothing? Lies?

[alexuk]

Hi Steamboat

Can you issue the refund on one of the batch orders? say #2?

im sure more than enough people want their cash back ASAP.

[rammy2k2]

Hi Steamboat

Can you issue the refund on one of the batch orders? say #2?

im sure more than enough people want their cash back ASAP.

he wont answer to anyone .. wich is really .... disappointing

[professorY]

Has anyone who went through the refund request process even heard anything about the status on that?

I filled out SB's request form within the first 48 hours it was offered and still have heard nothing one way or the other about what's happening with that.

I'd find it very tough to believe that there aren't at least enough people wanting refunds to make it to 10,000 chips and do at least one batch.

I'd love to know what's happening with assembly/hosting costs as well, but at this point that's not as pressing for me as getting some information about these chip refunds.

[nightengale]

I hate to ask this, but didn't SB provide his personal info to John K.?

[Xian01]

I hate to ask this, but didn't SB provide his personal info to John K.?

 Not that I plan on joining an angry mob (yet), but isn't it just a bit too soon to bring out the pitchforks ?

 Ugh. I'm having trouble believing that Steamboat is intentionally screwing us.

 Here's hoping we hear something decisive and definitive this week. I will admit I am starting to become a bit impatient, however.

[Boxman90]

nightengale, send me a PM with your details (chip order, batch number, email address). I'll add them to my sheet of people who are waiting on their refund and are done waiting. A few people from that group are ready to pursue legal action if needed. With more people on board, it will be easier to get his details from John K.

I'm not saying we're going to do that just yet, but we better be prepared for the worst. So far steamboat hasn't done awfully much to regain my trust back. I have yet to hear anything about my refund request.

[hoss]

I can't request a refund until I know how much I can get back on assembly. 

+1

Unfortunately - if you wait you may not have the option to refund.  I would say the window is closing fast with so many other group buys fully refunded.  Our chip ‘shipment’ should be soon.  

[cp1]

Also it's likely only the first 10,000 chips requested will be refunded (no partial batch refunds).  Possibly the first 20,000 chips, but it doesn't seem like 1/3 want a refund.