[BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process

[fuckukyo]

What a douchebag ukyo is, hiding behind his lawyer hired from our money.

Looks like ukyo spoke a bit more in #activemining:

Code:

(01:25:33) shabba: i don't understand why this is all still so secret
(01:25:39) shabba: NDA should be lifted by now
(01:27:15) Ukyo: most NDA's don't have timeline restrictions.
(01:27:29) Ukyo: Usually stand in place until all concerned parties are in agreement.
(01:28:09) Sebastan: Ukyo... how long will your NDA stay? :)
(01:28:49) Ukyo: I have many NDA's throughout my life. hehe
(01:29:41) Sebastan: what about the weexchange one?
(01:29:49) Ukyo: There are many. :)
(01:30:01) Ukyo: And still, I would not be able to say.
(01:30:09) Ukyo: That is generally part of an NDA. :)
(01:30:13) kleeck0: If you're into UFC or orthopedic repair you might find this interesting: http://www.ufc.com/media/ufc-dr-sanders-breakdown
(01:30:21) WildFire_ca: So who ever is mining at that pool addy has been mining since the 7th of Dec. https://blockchain.info/address/1Nbq2XZaRsKknf5fcT2wTXvBS31PaUWSeX
(01:30:22) ActiveBot: Title: Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info
(01:31:31) Sebastan: *sigh* i think ill try the lawyer way then and hopefully get more info that way ukyo...
(01:31:51) shabba: and they aren't moving funds around either…all the BTC has been mined is still in that address
(01:31:51) Ukyo: You must do what you feel you must.
(01:32:16) Ukyo: Plesae keep in mind that sometimes even lawyers alone can not change things.
(01:32:24) saulimus [~someone@37-219-33-138.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] hat den Raum betreten.
(01:32:41) WildFire_ca: 245.29 Th/s  is 10 of our machines..
(01:33:04) Ukyo: Sebastan: I would love to tell everyone everything, it would get a lot of pressure off of my back.
(01:33:20) WildFire_ca: Its probley someone who bought 10 of our machines   FFS
(01:33:27) Ukyo: This has been a huge pain in the ass however it is the only real option moving forward.
(01:33:36) Sebastan: so you say i wouldnt know more with the lawyer? not even when i would sue you? (What i dont plan yet...)
(01:34:05) Ukyo: Sebastan: A lawyer contacting my lawyer would not allow you any information not already available.
(01:34:27) Ukyo: If it was as easy as providing to your lawyer, then it would be the same as providing it to all.
(01:34:58) Ukyo: There is no special kind of lawyer to lawyer relationship
(01:35:04) Ukyo: and even if there was, it would not extend to you.
(01:35:12) WildFire_ca: That is why you go to discovery
(01:35:21) Ukyo: Yes, you must go into a full lawsuite.
(01:35:27) Ukyo: *-e
(01:35:42) Sebastan: so what would happen if i sue you? surely then the problems have come to light?
(01:35:54) Ukyo: And then ask the Judge for special permission to get access to the information.
(01:36:10) Ukyo: That depends on the Judge.
(01:36:20) Ukyo: And what the judge is capable of / willing to do
(01:36:31) Ukyo: Please keep in mind, sueing me personally wont get you anything
(01:36:35) Ukyo: except a dismissed case.
(01:36:53) Ukyo: Your issue would be with WeExchange Australia, the corporation
(01:37:04) Ukyo: And you have to sue for damages, not information.
(01:38:12) Ukyo: At this point in time, no matter what amount a judge awarded you, and regardless of you learning the reason, the outcome would result in WeExchange filing bankruptsy, paying out pretty much nothing since nothing is left, and the end to any possible chance of WeExchange Australia being able to correct the situation.,
(01:38:18) Ukyo: on a going forward basis.
(01:38:18) WildFire_ca: All you do is file  bring the case to discovery and then based on what you find you either drop the case or proceed.
(01:38:20) Ukyo: Thats all there is to it.
(01:38:42) Ukyo: As has been said before. I could throw my hands up in the air, say screw it, and leave everyone in a heavy lurch
(01:39:05) Ukyo: Or, I can do the right thing, and press on with the expectation of correcting things.
(01:39:09) Ukyo: Your choice. Not mine.
(01:39:12) Ukyo: As you clearly stated.
(01:39:30) auto2nr1_: ukyo, you should do the right thing =)
(01:39:35) auto2nr1_: how come its taking so long
(01:39:44) auto2nr1_: how much longer do you think for you to correct this situation?
(01:39:44) Ukyo: It only takes 1 individual to force things the company into bankruptsy.
(01:40:01) Ukyo: auto2nr1: Dont know yet. I don't have the ansers. If I did I would have give them out.
(01:40:08) Ukyo: answers*
(01:40:24) WildFire_ca: Holy crap Ken loged on to BTCtalk today.. THERE IS A GOD
(01:40:28) Sebastan: you know... lets assume someone lost money... a judge gave a gag order and claimed you cant pay out bitcoins that might belong to someone other... if i dont sue then the other person would get my bitcoins because he sued and not iam... thats what i fear... but you sound like there are no bitcoins anymore. they arent held back by any government for a sueing person...
(01:40:46) Ukyo: Sebastan: thats not how it works.
(01:40:52) Ukyo: a. theres nothing for someone else to get mroe than you
(01:41:08) Ukyo: b. the company would file for bankrupsty before a conclusion to your case
(01:41:19) Ukyo: this throwing out any decision by a judge
(01:41:27) Ukyo: as all debtors would have to be handled equally.
(01:41:38) Ukyo: which is next to nothing.
(01:41:51) Ukyo: or technicalyl nothing, since there is no profit
(01:41:56) Ukyo: and all costs come out of pocket currently
(01:42:07) Ukyo: Weex has never charged you, or anyone else a fee
(01:42:17) Ukyo: at least, nothing of any quantitative value
(01:42:58) Ukyo: Because of this, any lawsuit would instnatly put the company into foreclosure because there are no funds available to defend a company that has nothing.
(01:43:02) WildFire_ca: Are you still talking with NeoB.. Or have you finished dealing with them and the balls in there court now?
(01:43:11) Ukyo: I am still working with NeoB
(01:43:16) WildFire_ca: cool
(01:43:21) Ukyo: But thinigs do not work on bitcoin time in the real world
(01:43:28) Ukyo: Esp. during the holidays,
(01:43:35) WildFire_ca: Very true
(01:43:44) Sebastan: sounds like there are no bitcoins held back. but if they are stolen it doesnt make sense to be quiet about it since the thieve knows already what he did. if you made an error and lost the keys... sounds unlikely then keeping silent means nothing too... dont understand this...
(01:43:52) Ukyo: Sebastan: "held back" ?
(01:43:54) Ukyo: there is nothign to hold back
(01:43:58) Ukyo: We have distributed what we could
(01:44:02) Ukyo: there was no "profits"
(01:44:06) Ukyo: you were charged no "fees"
(01:44:42) WildFire_ca: Unless your Cointerra,, those bitches packaged there chips during Xmas
(01:44:47) Sebastan: ok... but the user bitcoins should be there regardless of fees or profits... the assumption would be a government seized them. but it sounds like there simply is nothing seized
(01:45:16) Ukyo: That is your interpretation.
(01:45:28) shabba: Sebastan are you referring to bitfunder or weexchange? ukyo is saying weex has no BTC
(01:45:30) Ukyo: At this time I am not giving any details on the funds.
(01:45:41) shabba: but they could possibly be under the company of bitfunder
(01:46:00) Sebastan: shabba... bitfunder never had bitcoins at all. the bitcoins were stored in weexchange in reality...
(01:46:04) Ukyo: shabba: weex held all bitcoins for bitfunder. Bitfunder transfered control all bitcoins except for a small amount to weexchange accounts. Bitfudner has no bitcoins or control of any
(01:46:21) shabba: I don't have anything in this
(01:46:28) shabba: but sounds like you're in some deep shit lol
(01:46:30) shabba: good luck yall
(01:46:34) Ukyo: Very much so.
(01:46:38) Ukyo: It stinks.  badly.
(01:46:44) Sebastan: *sigh* If its really a gag order i want to kick the inventor in the nuts very hard
(01:46:59) Ukyo: But I am trying to make the most of it and get people taken care of to the best of my ability.
(01:47:05) Ukyo: As long as the people will let me.
(01:47:35) Ukyo: But once it is taken out of my hands, there is nothing left for me to do to make things right.
(01:47:42) WildFire_ca: I think most of all everyone wants a positive outcome.
(01:47:52) Ukyo: Which is why we ask people to be patient.
(01:48:38) Sebastan: I wonder how long that will work...
(01:48:59) Ukyo: well, the alternative is nothing at this point.
(01:49:20) Ukyo: You have said yourself
(01:49:26) Ukyo: that the addresses are empty.
(01:49:29) Evolyn__ [~Evolyn@p4FDCFF4F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(01:49:32) chairforce1 [48c88378@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.200.131.120] hat den Raum betreten.
(01:49:37) Sebastan: You dont want to work off the bitcoins that you owe dont you?
(01:49:44) Ukyo: I do.
(01:49:51) Ukyo: And I will use everythign at my disposal
(01:49:55) Ukyo: to make up for things in the mean time
(01:50:14) Sebastan: if weexchange dies and there is a gag order and seized bitcoins then only weexchange would be lost... i dont really see why weexchange is needed in there...
(01:50:33) Ukyo: thats because of your limited understanding of the situation.
(01:50:38) Ukyo: and how things work.
(01:50:38) Sebastan: if you want to work off then it sounds like you did an error...
(01:50:53) Ukyo: or I simple want it resolved.
(01:50:53) Sebastan: or to buy time
(01:50:57) Ukyo: And keep my reputation
(01:51:02) kleeck0: Ukyo, you can come clean my kitchen for 1000BTC
(01:51:10) Ukyo: kleeck0: deal
(01:51:13) kleeck0: :P
(01:51:17) Ukyo: I'll get Ken to help
(01:51:17) Ukyo: :P
(01:51:29) Ukyo: Mebbe ask SAM if hes interested.
(01:51:33) kleeck0: :P
(01:51:34) Ukyo: Then I can sit back and "manage" :P
(01:51:44) kleeck0: And Alberto
(01:51:49) Ukyo: same thing :P
(01:51:54) kleeck0 hat den Raum verlassen ("Leaving").
(01:52:05) kleeck0 [~kleeck2@c-50-151-121-65.hsd1.in.comcast.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(01:52:12) kleeck0: and the tatti duo
(01:52:20) JimJones [~warflute@a85-139-192-199.cpe.netcabo.pt] hat den Raum betreten.
(01:52:23) kleeck0: also nefario
(01:52:25) JimJones: y0
(01:52:33) WildFire_ca: lol
(01:52:47) Ukyo: does nefario still owe ppl?
(01:53:00) kleeck0: I think
(01:53:02) Ukyo: thought he paid most ppl off
(01:53:10) Evolyn_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
(01:53:20) Ukyo: (not that I am defending him)
(01:53:35) Ukyo: But in some ways, I can understand why he did what he did.
(01:54:06) Sebastan: anyway... thanks for writing uky
(01:54:09) Sebastan: ukyo
(01:54:36) Ukyo: Sebastan: i really wish I could do more right now
(01:54:51) Ukyo: but if things are to work out fully for everyone, I am very limited on things.
(01:55:20) Sebastan: i really hope the mystery is as big as you make it... :)
(01:55:34) Ukyo: Depends on point of view probably.
(01:56:25) Ukyo: But the point is to make good on things as soon as its possible. If something happens that allows it all to be cleared up sooner, all the better
(01:56:56) JimJones: wasn't ken suposed to make a fucking weekly report today?
(01:57:04) chairforce1: YUP
(01:57:05) Ukyo: JimJones: good luck on that.
(01:57:21) JimJones: Ukyo, good luck on your getting ur shares
(01:57:28) Ukyo: Sebastan: I was mentioning the other day. Its a known fact I personally hold some ActM shares.
(01:57:39) Ukyo: I have been in consideraiton of selling those for distribution to weex users.
(01:58:07) chairforce1: what price would u sell them at?
(01:58:37) Ukyo: Honestly, I have no idea at this point. First have to make it past the issue of Ken.
(01:58:57) Ukyo: They may have to go up for a fair auction
(01:58:59) Sebastan: I would buy for 0.0006btc per share... i wonder how good shares can be sold...
(01:59:02) Sebastan: how many do you have?
(01:59:18) auto2nr1_: yea how many shares do you have ukyo?
(01:59:19) Ukyo: Over 100k.
(01:59:48) Ukyo: I was an original investor. about 100~150 btc worth.
(01:59:58) Sebastan: ok... maybe 100btc if youre lucky... but maybe the price is rising when its traded...
(02:00:01) shaofis [48d6eaca@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.72.214.234.202] hat den Raum betreten.
(02:00:22) Ukyo: if Ken actually manages to do somethign with ActM
(02:00:25) Ukyo: it could be worth a notable sum
(02:00:50) Ukyo: but as the days go on, further and futher from the deadlines, with no new deadlines, or inforatiom, that seems less likely
(02:00:55) Sebastan: thats correct... so hopefully he plans to bring share on the exchange when he has very good news. that would be the best for you
(02:01:12) shaofis: Update posted for those who haven't seen
(02:01:33) shaofis: Zero on the listing on an exchange
(02:02:15) Sebastan: i posted the log in bitfunder resolution thread since its an open chat here...
(02:02:28) Ukyo: Thats fine.
(02:02:34) Ukyo: This is a public resource.

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[tomywomy]

What a douchebag ukyo is, hiding behind his lawyer hired from our money.

Indeed. Claiming that if weExchange is sued then he will throw it in to bankruptcy and then nobody will get paid is true only if no crime was committed by him.  If he took the bitcoins out of bitcoin, HE committed a crime and he is liable both for returning the property and for having a criminal conviction along with whatever penalties that carries. 

There really isn't any reason to continue to trust him without bringing the police into the picture.

[Ukyo]

I think you missed the point.
There was no lawyer hired using WeExchange funds because there is none.
And I did not take the funds out.

What you see is facts.

There is nothing available for WeExchange Au to be able to defend itself from a lawsuit.
It would have _no_ choice but to file bankruptcy.
This is not my choice, this is something that would be forced by a third party wishing to spend funds for the sole purpose of closing the company with no other results.
If bankruptcy is declared then all debtors (users and alike) will get an equal share of current assets and funds (nothing), the company is closed, and that is that.
I did not take the btc or have done anything unlawful with them. This has been said many times. We are trying to work things out to the best possible outcome
and make everyone 100% whole.

-Ukyo

[CumpsD]

I think you missed the point.
There was no lawyer hired using WeExchange funds because there is none.
And I did not take the funds out.

Let's just focus on getting the next portal finished, the Ukyo.Loan one

[matt4054]

Let's just focus on getting the next portal finished, the Ukyo.Loan one

With all due respect, let's rather:

• Just focus here on getting the remaining 95% repaid to BF/WeEx users (this topic)
• Create or join another topic for the Ukyo.Loan, because if you granted Ukyo a loan, I'm all sorry for you but at least you did (and he did not repay it yet), while "we" (here on the topic of BF/WeEx) never granted Ukyo any loan at all in the first place

I'm not denying your right to ask Ukyo's attention to repay his loan eventually, but let's not forget the above, please.

[Puppet]

There was no lawyer hired using WeExchange funds because there is none.

Really. Not so long ago I questioned you about the legality of your businesses, and you replied this:

I have 3 lawfirms around the world that I am working with to try my best to make sure BitFunder is safe and to get government sponsorship / licensing

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3216254#msg3216254

Now you are saying you dont have a lawyer?

[CumpsD]

I'm not denying your right to ask Ukyo's attention to repay his loan eventually, but let's not forget the above, please.

Ok, let's not forget, however Ukyo stated his next point of order was that portal, so let him finish it and move on with the next.

[Ukyo]

There was no lawyer hired using WeExchange funds because there is none.

Really. Not so long ago I questioned you about the legality of your businesses, and you replied this:

I have 3 lawfirms around the world that I am working with to try my best to make sure BitFunder is safe and to get government sponsorship / licensing

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3216254#msg3216254

Now you are saying you dont have a lawyer?

What does BitFunder (which is now shut down) having legal representation to investigate licensing possibilities have anything to do with WeExchange?

WeExchange does not have a defense attorney hired to defend itself from lawsuits.

[twentyseventy]

There was no lawyer hired using WeExchange funds because there is none.

Really. Not so long ago I questioned you about the legality of your businesses, and you replied this:

I have 3 lawfirms around the world that I am working with to try my best to make sure BitFunder is safe and to get government sponsorship / licensing

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3216254#msg3216254

Now you are saying you dont have a lawyer?

What does BitFunder (which is now shut down) having legal representation to investigate licensing possibilities have anything to do with WeExchange?

WeExchange does not have a defense attorney hired to defend itself from lawsuits.

You would be the link between those two legal entities. I'm assuming that you hired the lawyer for BitFunder? It's reasonable to assume that you might hire the same lawyers to defend both companies.

[Ukyo]

You would be the link between those two legal entities. I'm assuming that you hired the lawyer for BitFunder? It's reasonable to assume that you might hire the same lawyers to defend both companies.

BitFunder and WeExchange Au are different jurisdictions / countries.

[kano]

I think you missed the point.
There was no lawyer hired using WeExchange funds because there is none.
And I did not take the funds out.

What you see is facts.

There is nothing available for WeExchange Au to be able to defend itself from a lawsuit.
It would have _no_ choice but to file bankruptcy.
This is not my choice, this is something that would be forced by a third party wishing to spend funds for the sole purpose of closing the company with no other results.
If bankruptcy is declared then all debtors (users and alike) will get an equal share of current assets and funds (nothing), the company is closed, and that is that.
...

You are wrong.

You see, you did not have the weex funds to do with as you please.

If they have been used for any purpose, as the blockchain will prove true or false, then you are up for criminal charges if you do not return them all.

[Ukyo]

You are wrong.

You see, you did not have the weex funds to do with as you please.

If they have been used for any purpose, as the blockchain will prove true or false, then you are up for criminal charges if you do not return them all.

Which is what I stated. I did not.

[SebastianJu]

There was no lawyer hired using WeExchange funds because there is none.

Really. Not so long ago I questioned you about the legality of your businesses, and you replied this:

I have 3 lawfirms around the world that I am working with to try my best to make sure BitFunder is safe and to get government sponsorship / licensing

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3216254#msg3216254

Now you are saying you dont have a lawyer?

What does BitFunder (which is now shut down) having legal representation to investigate licensing possibilities have anything to do with WeExchange?

WeExchange does not have a defense attorney hired to defend itself from lawsuits.

Really? First i have read your sentence exactly that way... then i thought "there is none" was meant for the funds that dont exist and cant be used for a lawyer.

But if there really is no lawyer then its highly unlikely that a gag order is in place since for sure you would have asked a lawyer for legal advice what to do.

You claim the coins arent in weexchange anymore so its no technical error.

The government cant take the coins without you but you didnt take the coins you say.

Since the coins are gone like you claim the only reason i see is they were stolen. But then i dont understand your silence. The thieve knows what he did and knows you hunt him. Silence only would help him since you prevent us from helping then.

You want to keep Weexchange alive because you want to sell it or have a big customer, maybe NEOBEE. I dont see why a liability, that you have, should die when weexchange dies.

I have another thought... maybe you did an error like nefario did. When bitcoind was broken you maybe sent too many bitcoins to one or more users and you now hope to get it back. Again... nothing for what weexchange has to stay alive or something the company would protect you so that you wouldnt need to pay back the coins when weexchange died.

Again... i hope you know what you do with your silence.

[matt4054]

You are wrong.

You see, you did not have the weex funds to do with as you please.

If they have been used for any purpose, as the blockchain will prove true or false, then you are up for criminal charges if you do not return them all.

Which is what I stated. I did not.

In other words, the most likely cause that you can't express would be something like: I did not, <gag>I trusted someone who had control over the BTC and misbehaved, but I can't say it, because I have started a legal procedure in hope for a bargain agreement / partial / total recovery of the funds, and exposing my facts / claims to the public could be used against my interests during that procedure</gag>.

Or maybe that person is a relative of yours. I don't know. I don't really care... should I?

While others seem so upset by the mystery, I am simply concerned about the recovery of my debt, and I think everyone should mostly focus on the most promising path towards that recovery. All the rest should stay a private matter, that's the best resolution for everyone. May it be as quick as possible!

[lunarboy]

You are wrong.

You see, you did not have the weex funds to do with as you please.

If they have been used for any purpose, as the blockchain will prove true or false, then you are up for criminal charges if you do not return them all.

Which is what I stated. I did not.

In other words, the most likely cause that you can't express would be something like: I did not, <gag>I trusted someone who had control over the BTC and misbehaved, but I can't say it, because I have started a legal procedure in hope for a bargain agreement / partial / total recovery of the funds, and exposing my facts / claims to the public could be used against my interests during that procedure</gag>.

Or maybe that person is a relative of yours. I don't know. I don't really care... should I?

While others seem so upset by the mystery, I am simply concerned about the recovery of my debt, and I think everyone should mostly focus on the most promising path towards that recovery. All the rest should stay a private matter, that's the best resolution for everyone. May it be as quick as possible!

well said. I couldn't give a rats turd what happened just resolve it as quick as you can and stop playing with the trolls.

[JaredR26]

I think you missed the point.
There was no lawyer hired using WeExchange funds because there is none.
And I did not take the funds out.

What you see is facts.

There is nothing available for WeExchange Au to be able to defend itself from a lawsuit.
It would have _no_ choice but to file bankruptcy.
This is not my choice, this is something that would be forced by a third party wishing to spend funds for the sole purpose of closing the company with no other results.
If bankruptcy is declared then all debtors (users and alike) will get an equal share of current assets and funds (nothing), the company is closed, and that is that.
I did not take the btc or have done anything unlawful with them. This has been said many times. We are trying to work things out to the best possible outcome
and make everyone 100% whole.

-Ukyo

Hi Ukyo,

How long until you can release information about what happened and what is being done about it?

How long until we see something?

[Puppet]

What does BitFunder (which is now shut down) having legal representation to investigate licensing possibilities have anything to do with WeExchange?

You want us to believe to you hired legal firms across the globe for bitfunder, a pure bitcoin business,  and didnt think it a good idea to look in to a legal ramifications of operating an international money exchange business?

BTW, I think this is where I get to say: "I told you so".

[Ukyo]

Really? First i have read your sentence exactly that way... then i thought "there is none" was meant for the funds that dont exist and cant be used for a lawyer.

But if there really is no lawyer then its highly unlikely that a gag order is in place since for sure you would have asked a lawyer for legal advice what to do.

You claim the coins arent in weexchange anymore so its no technical error.

The government cant take the coins without you but you didnt take the coins you say.

Since the coins are gone like you claim the only reason i see is they were stolen. But then i dont understand your silence. The thieve knows what he did and knows you hunt him. Silence only would help him since you prevent us from helping then.

You want to keep Weexchange alive because you want to sell it or have a big customer, maybe NEOBEE. I dont see why a liability, that you have, should die when weexchange dies.

I have another thought... maybe you did an error like nefario did. When bitcoind was broken you maybe sent too many bitcoins to one or more users and you now hope to get it back. Again... nothing for what weexchange has to stay alive or something the company would protect you so that you wouldnt need to pay back the coins when weexchange died.

Again... i hope you know what you do with your silence.

Correct. There is no defense lawyer for WeExchange and nor are there funds for WeExchange to have one.

As far as advise from any other lawyers, I can not share that information since it would break confidentiality.

I truly hope to be able to resolve things.

-Ukyo

[Ukyo]

What does BitFunder (which is now shut down) having legal representation to investigate licensing possibilities have anything to do with WeExchange?

You want us to believe to you hired legal firms across the globe for bitfunder, a pure bitcoin business,  and didnt think it a good idea to look in to a legal ramifications of operating an international money exchange business?

BTW, I think this is where I get to say: "I told you so".

Please make less sense elsewhere.

[kirawei]

Ukyo Please transfer my 449 AM shares!!! Please do not ignore me.