Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[NewLiberty]

The house you rent out = investment
The house you live in = consumption
If standard of living is a function of what one consumes, adam "gets it" already.

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[adamstgBit]

i'm moving up next year, and i wont have to sell any bitcoins, can't wait!

[cypherdoc]

Buying a home at any time in the last 50 years would've been a good move except in years 2007, 2008:

www.census.gov/const/uspriceann.pdf

My father in law is a multi millionaire having bought primarily commercial real estate starting back then in LA.  Now his kids get a handsome annuity check monthly. It's amazing how long these trends keep going.

[cypherdoc]

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/503760154790465536

[cypherdoc]

gold futures slowly descending tonite.

[Adrian-x]

long term housing can only go up... and even if thats not true, consider your options, throwing away money on rent?

But everybody pays rent.  You either pay it to yourself (in lieu of the money you would receive from a tenant), or you pay it to a landlord.  In an efficient market, it shouldn't really make a difference whether you buy or rent.  The fact that it has made a difference (and a huge difference at that) shows how out of whack the housing market has become over the last few decades.

I also don't think it's true that long term housing can only go up. Shiller has over a century of evidence to refute this:



I think the statement "housing is a good investment" is a myth that started with the baby boomer generation because this is the only generation that the statement has been unequivocally true for.  

if i rent for 25years i end with nothing.
if i buy and pay mortgage for 25years i end with a house.

who in there right mind would rent?
who cares what the market is doing?
BUY BUY BUY!

The market is screwed up look at what is happening in the UK, home owners are getting tax payer subsidized grants from government - if you don't own property you are subsidizing property owners as a tax payer.

It is happening here in Canada too, it's just hidden in inflation and demand is somewhat controlled by the fact there are few developed cities.

It's crazy rents here are as expensive as mortgages and subject to inflation - to which mortgage happen to be inflation proof.

In effect the housing market is eating monetary inflation and the productive people of the world are servicing that  inflated debt money.

But if you could find rent cheaper than a mortgage and you invested the difference in Bitcoin I'd say. RENT and buy Bitcoin.

But then I am an Outlier, and to date most think I'm a nut job and just stupid not getting in on the property boom.

[NewLiberty]

Government has an interest in people owning property.  It fosters docility, because they are bound to geography they can always take it and you can't take it with you if you leave.  It is the safest asset for them for you to invest in.

[cypherdoc]

Government has an interest in people owning property.  It fosters docility, because they are bound to geography they can always take it and you can't take it with you if you leave.  It is the safest asset for them for you to invest in.

You forgot property taxes.

One never truly owns the land or the dwelling. I  paid off my home years ago yet I still fork over huge amounts.

[sidhujag]

Government has an interest in people owning property.  It fosters docility, because they are bound to geography they can always take it and you can't take it with you if you leave.  It is the safest asset for them for you to invest in.

You forgot property taxes.

One never truly owns the land or the dwelling. I  paid off my home years ago yet I still fork over huge amounts.

I think there is a clause where under the military act they can always just "take your land" for the "good of the country" at no cost. So yea you never really own it, they just make you feel like you do and every pea brain out there who doesnt think critically does think they really own it so society as a whole understands it as the be all end all asset to own, especially as shit hits the fan because people need to eat and need shelter. On the other end when shit really does hit the fan people wont care about eating the same and sheltering themselves in the same way.

[rpietila]

Monero will possibly be the thing that ushers in the Mark of the Beast, because it truly is an unconfiscable asset. That people opt out from the ultimate total enslavement plan of the world government, and happily use Moneros, pisses the controllers so much in the eye, that they actually manage to enact death penalty for all who would like to live their lives happily without their lame mark of the beast.

Read the rest of the story in Revelation: beautiful heroines, last-minute saves and surprising plot twists...

[Erdogan]

if i rent for 25years i end with nothing.
if i buy and pay mortgage for 25years i end with a house.

who in there right mind would rent?

For people who will spend all of their money in either case, it's definitely better to buy than to rent.  A mortgage is a forced savings plan. Building wealth while renting probably requires a different kind of discipline (but if it's cheaper to rent than to buy you will come out ahead by renting 25 years down the road all else being equal).  

It is a forced savings plan - but when you know this, and refinance your house every year to take out that saving to use on cars and vacations - you do not have a house in the end.

[wachtwoord]

if i rent for 25years i end with nothing.
if i buy and pay mortgage for 25years i end with a house.

who in there right mind would rent?

Me.

Renting means not having to put a huge portion of your net worth (or in most peoples cases, more than their net worth, so with leverage) in the stupid asset class real estate while at the same time being not diversified at all. Further all houses here are seriously overvalued (100-200%) because of government intervention (mortgage interest is deductible from income taxes) which I predict is going to be reduced until it can be abolished bringing the housing prices back to what should be normal. Finally, when you own a house you have zero flexibility. I really don't want to own a house thank you very much.

[justusranvier]

Finally, when you own a house you have zero flexibility. I really don't want to own a house thank you very much.

I agree with this theory, and I've been pushing it increasingly further over time to see how far I can go.

[Cortex7]

Finally, when you own a house you have zero flexibility. I really don't want to own a house thank you very much.

I agree with this theory, and I've been pushing it increasingly further over time to see how far I can go.

I'm sure landlords think your theory is absolutely great!

[justusranvier]

I'm sure landlords think your theory is absolutely great!

Don't have one.

[Cortex7]

I'm sure landlords think your theory is absolutely great!

Don't have one.

I didn't imply that you did. But if you have a roof over your head and are rent free then you're onto a good thing, good luck to you!

[zeetubes]

Finally, when you own a house you have zero flexibility. I really don't want to own a house thank you very much.

I agree with this theory, and I've been pushing it increasingly further over time to see how far I can go.

I've been traveling for over four years. I was pretty sure I'd get bored with it after six weeks but I guess that didn't quite pan out. I'm terrified of the day when I have to stop. It will be quite an adjustment.

[Erdogan]

Investment in housing is very complex. You have to consider

Inflation
The housing price development
What living standard you want to have
Your life situation, including risk of change
Your job location, including risk of change
maintenance, sudden reparations
ownership taxes
water, energy, waste removal prices
Reserve cash
Lease out a part, taxes connected to lease.
capital gains tax, tax relief, often depending on length of ownership, dependent on buying a new house
How much do you want to save
Flexibility
Refinancing, taking out the gains in the form of a new loan

I am sure there are more.

Normal situation is to save in housing, mostly as a defense against inflation.

With bitcoin, you have defense against inflation, plus low cost of ownership, plus liquidity, and more.

[Torque]

if i rent for 25years i end with nothing.
if i buy and pay mortgage for 25years i end with a house.

who in there right mind would rent?

If renting is a fraction of the cost of buying, you could use the extra money to enjoy a higher standard of living for those 25 years.

Maintaining a home can also be quite expensive (ignoring the purchase cost).

but living in a really expenvice house =  higher standard of living

Adam, I'm starting to wonder exactly how old you are.  Because if you have lived life long enough (to at least age 40-ish), and have spent some amount of time in an "expensive" house, you would understand the realized absurdity of that statement.  When you experience it for yourself, you'll finally "get it".

i have a tiny condo

wana trade?

i want to "get it"

BS a nice house doesn't improve standard of living, BS

There is nothing wrong with owning a house.  Just buy an inexpensive one with low upkeep, and as work hard and as fast as possible to own it outright.  Just like 6-7 year financial loans for cars are pure evil, so are 30-year mortgages.  It doesn't matter what great interest rate you get from the bank, they and the rest of life OWNS you if you are locked into high debt.  The first 10-15 yrs of a mortgage is pretty much all interest paid back to the bank first, and nowadays most people don't stay in their first or even second home nearly that long.  Not to mention all the "upgrades" and sunk/hidden costs that they never recoupe.

I would take a condo that I owned outright, over a financed house that was owning ME any day.

[Carlton Banks]

One never truly owns the land or the dwelling. I  paid off my home years ago yet I still fork over huge amounts.

I think there is a clause where under the military act they can always just "take your land" for the "good of the country" at no cost. So yea you never really own it, they just make you feel like you do

There's possibly even more truth to this than is acknowledged.

The law governing land/property ownership is an interesting topic. The government typically owns the registry, and people think of that as the list of plots, but only as a practical reality. You can own the title to any plot and all structures built on it, but this only gives you the right to live there above that of the rest of the serfs.

People say "well, in practice you own it, title and registry are just legal technicalities". This is true given the present title legislation and world-economic circumstances, but what happens when sovereign bond armageddon strikes? According to sovereign bond armageddon cheerleaders, the central banks and governments become bankrupt, as the debtor can't pay and the creditor now has no assets. Rainbows and unicorns ensue, everyone is free of debt and government and central banks go away muttering curses. I wonder if the central banks would ask for the land registry instead? If the debts also cover assets up to, say, the legislature, the police/army/secret service infrastructure, trunk communications backbone, roads/transport infrastructure, energy production facilities...

Even the most pessimistic dytopia merchants don't even paint a picture as bleak as this, but I can't see the establishment all giving it up to live as benign retirees. It's tempting to suggest that this past century has gradually evolved into a massive leveraged buyout of entire land masses. Lets hope all those birth certificates in the records offices can't be reinterpreted as government assets (or contracts of ownership). Think happy thoughts everybody!