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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806353 times)
iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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January 24, 2015, 05:33:06 AM
 #20541

using Bitcoin for the masses to touch (try to) and hold (try to) and use for buying  trinkets is the worst idea ever.  People who have a half a clue as to what they are doing using Bitcoin as and reserve and proxy for more encumbered currencies is where the sustainable value comes from.  That is, leveraging it's advantages over gold.

Now all we need is sidechains to have the best of both worlds.  The herds will have the same levels of security without paying usurious rates to a middle-man (and being flat out ripped of by him half the time) and the solution won't be swamped and sunk under the weight of a sea of a billion retards.

The Atlas-type people who matter will use Bitcoin for the seven most important (IE high-value) transactions per second.  No need for bloated blocks and hard forks.

The useless drooling masses can use altcoins to buy their plastic trinkets and shitty streamed Hollywood mind pollution.  No need for risky, divisive sidechains.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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tvbcof
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January 24, 2015, 05:40:26 AM
 #20542

On the contrary, lots of money is to be made and saved. Where is it coming from? Efficiency.

I think what you are groping for is 'economies of scale'.  This is certainly possible with Bitcoin.  Possibly almost inevitable which would kill the solution to me (though I might get rich in the process.)

As I said on another thread, the thing which makes Bitcoin kind of unique and differentiates it from Apple-pay or whatever-the-hell it is is that it is not controlled by players who can opperate more efficiently because they have a giant footprint.  Bitcoin still has some aura of rebelliousness.  It will be interesting to see if whatever giant corporation who monopolizes the solution will be able to hold on to any of that as they implement 'red-listing' and track the shit out of everything anyone does.  Most people are so utterly fucking stupid that I would not rule it out.  Even on the trolltalk forum so it can be assumed that in the real world things are even worse.


79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
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January 24, 2015, 05:53:04 AM
 #20543

No, I meant efficiency.
tvbcof
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January 24, 2015, 05:54:44 AM
 #20544

Does it make sense to replace all Honda windshields with Lear style ones because they are 'more secure'. 

It does make sense to do so if the Lear style windshield is not only more secure, but also less expensive than the Honda style. Better and cheaper. No brainer.

I'm sure nobody would be able to make a transaction solution which is cheaper than real time flooding of the entire network with every transaction and keeping every transaction on every autonomous node in perpetuity...and every 'coin' (aka UTXO) in the currency system in memory.

The costs will, of course, come down as things are centralized to one player who can make all the money they need and then some by tracking  and analyzing everyone's activities.  But they'll still shit-can all this blockchain nonsense to make it cheaper to run anyway.

Actually, what will most likely happen is that about 5 outfits 'compete' in running Bitcoin but it will be for straight-up marketing propaganda reasons (which mouth-breathers will swallow hook line and sinker.)  They will probably still shit-can the blockchain and use a more efficient synchronization protocol, but who would even know or care?


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January 24, 2015, 05:59:10 AM
 #20545

this is good from Davos:

https://twitter.com/bill_gross/status/558626693662126080
Melbustus
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January 24, 2015, 06:04:11 AM
 #20546

Does it make sense to replace all Honda windshields with Lear style ones because they are 'more secure'. 

It does make sense to do so if the Lear style windshield is not only more secure, but also less expensive than the Honda style. Better and cheaper. No brainer.

I'm sure nobody would be able to make a transaction solution which is cheaper than real time flooding of the entire network with every transaction and keeping every transaction on every autonomous node in perpetuity...and every 'coin' (aka UTXO) in the currency system in memory.

The costs will, of course, come down as things are centralized to one player who can make all the money they need and then some by tracking  and analyzing everyone's activities.  But they'll still shit-can all this blockchain nonsense to make it cheaper to run anyway.

Actually, what will most likely happen is that about 5 outfits 'compete' in running Bitcoin but it will be for straight-up marketing propaganda reasons (which mouth-breathers will swallow hook line and sinker.)  They will probably still shit-can the blockchain and use a more efficient synchronization protocol, but who would even know or care?




I think you're describing Ripple.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
cypherdoc
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January 24, 2015, 06:18:54 AM
 #20547

cypherdoc
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January 24, 2015, 06:22:00 AM
 #20548

what mining centralization?

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January 24, 2015, 07:08:35 AM
 #20549

Gold, Bitcoin & the US Dollar amid a Global Economic Slowdown

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113348/gold-bitcoin-the-us-dollar-amid-a-global-economic-slowdown

first time I'm not OT in a very long while Tongue

This part is bullshit:

"Under this backdrop, it is easy to see why the USD is surging as the US has stopped QE and indicated a rate hike at some point this year. The US is perceived to have the strongest economy in the world."

Everyone seems to forget the Fed just finished around $4T  in QE over 6 years. CB's simply do a Round Robin when  it comes to QE which creates am artificial "stability" in cross rate, when in fact, they're all devaluing at different intervals.  

This is why they are all so worried about Bitcoin and rightfully so.

      Most of the QE money has still not begun to circulate. Someone knows what they are doing.
BTCtrader71
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January 24, 2015, 07:29:18 AM
 #20550

Does it make sense to replace all Honda windshields with Lear style ones because they are 'more secure'.  

It does make sense to do so if the Lear style windshield is not only more secure, but also less expensive than the Honda style. Better and cheaper. No brainer.

I'm sure nobody would be able to make a transaction solution which is cheaper than real time flooding of the entire network with every transaction and keeping every transaction on every autonomous node in perpetuity...and every 'coin' (aka UTXO) in the currency system in memory.


It sounds like you're trying to make the point that keeping LOTS AND LOTS of copies of an entry in a ledger (i.e, the blockchain) is expensive. Like, I buy a cup of coffee, and this single transaction gets recorded LIKE A ZILLION TIMES all over the globe.

Is that what you're trying to say? If so, my response:

The number of perfectly identical copies of a single transaction is much less of an issue than the number of distinct ledgers and distinct ledger entries for that transaction. Did you ever stop to think about how many different ledgers/ledger entries does it take to buy a single cup of coffee with a credit card? This one transaction involves a complex flow of money that involves the customer, the merchant, the credit card, the POS (like square or paypal or whoever), and maybe more. That's at least 4 entities and with double entry accounting, there are probably at least 8 different tables that record this one transaction. I bet it's actually a lot more than that. At some point in time, multiple people have to make sure that all of this record keeping is consistent among all these different databases that are built and maintained by different people with different levels of expertise, using different conventions, different computer languages, etc etc. Suppose there is a discrepancy; which table contains the error? It's this process of reconciliation where the expense comes in.

When you go through that exercise, suddenly having one transaction recorded in ONE ledger that everyone trusts and refers to, sounds pretty simple. Who cares that this one ledger is duplicated many times over the globe?

Of course, we're not there yet. It will be a long time before we abandon the legacy fiat system entirely. But it will happen, eventually. Until then, we have about a zillion different ledgers spread across the planet, and we gotta make sure they alway stay reconciled. God help us.

BTC: 14oTcy1DNEXbcYjzPBpRWV11ZafWxNP8EU
solex
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100 satoshis -> ISO code


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January 24, 2015, 08:42:12 AM
 #20551

Some alt-coins are fading from the race. BTC-E is delisting three while it still has 40% of the exchange market in them.
Terracoin was one of the earliest.  Primecoin hashing was meant to do useful work besides secure its blockchain.

Quote
Dear participants of the BTC-e.com exchange!

Due to the low volume on TRC/BTC, FTC/BTC, XPM/BTC pairs, trades on those pairs will be closed since February 1, 2015.

https://btc-e.com/exchange/trc_btc TRC/BTC
https://btc-e.com/exchange/ftc_btc FTC/BTC
https://btc-e.com/exchange/xpm_btc XPM/BTC

Autamatical withdrawal of TRC, FTC and XPM will be available until March 31, 2015.

Sincerely yours,
btc-e.com support

https://btc-e.com/news/207

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Bitcoin: The honey badger of currencies


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January 24, 2015, 10:32:25 AM
 #20552


For a second I got excited thinking it was this Bill Gross.
http://www.forbes.com/profile/bill-gross/


Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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January 24, 2015, 11:19:52 AM
 #20553

Gold, Bitcoin & the US Dollar amid a Global Economic Slowdown

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113348/gold-bitcoin-the-us-dollar-amid-a-global-economic-slowdown

first time I'm not OT in a very long while Tongue

This part is bullshit:

"Under this backdrop, it is easy to see why the USD is surging as the US has stopped QE and indicated a rate hike at some point this year. The US is perceived to have the strongest economy in the world."

Everyone seems to forget the Fed just finished around $4T  in QE over 6 years. CB's simply do a Round Robin when  it comes to QE which creates am artificial "stability" in cross rate, when in fact, they're all devaluing at different intervals.  

This is why they are all so worried about Bitcoin and rightfully so.

      Most of the QE money has still not begun to circulate. Someone knows what they are doing.

I think this QE is just money printing to generate inflation and devalue currencies until total credit market debt begins to explode again.
Must stave off a deflationary credit collapse by devaluing currency and maintaining asset prices until wages can support the next borrowing frenzy. The best thing is that the government debt everyone is concerned about can simply be cancelled leaving governments better off in terms of debt to GDP ratios. The only question is how do they stop without a giant crash? I think they simply say they have stopped at some point in the future but continue printing in stealth. At some point we will get significant inflation because this expansion of narrow money is real - and forms the base for the next credit boom. Banana economics!

Bitcoin just needs a spark of interest and there could be a flight into it like nothing ever seen before. This seems likely once the inflation rate has cut in half again after 2016. If any central bank murmurs about holding bitcoin in their reserves things will get real awfully quickly.
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January 24, 2015, 11:27:47 AM
 #20554

Just came across this video which helped me alot understanding the blocksize limit issue: http://keepbitcoinfree.org/
I found it quite amazing that Peter Tood came with it even before Gavin ran his tests about it and on his own..

From what i've seen on the bitcoin-dev logs, it seems gmaxwell just dont see the need for increasing the blocksize now, for there is still quite some place left. You dont fork the perfectly working bitcoin network in anticipation like that.
+ there is this argument that once the fork of 20MB is made, why not just consider infinite limit.

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

Consensus. Love that word. Smiley

ps: just trying to get it as i only aspire for bitcoin to succeed and grasp what this is all about since im invested in, so feel free to correct me if wrong.
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January 24, 2015, 02:22:43 PM
 #20555

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

I hear this thrown around a lot, but never seen any evidence for it. How has Bitpay/Coinbase pressured Gavin?

It's not unlikely that Gavin actually thinks this is a good idea and that's why he's working on it.

I think Monero (XMR) is very interesting.
https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters
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January 24, 2015, 02:36:22 PM
 #20556

'Weaponization of Finance’
Financial intelligence has come into its own as the U.S. increasingly turns to sanctions, asset freezes and other financial actions to thwart adversaries from al-Qaeda operatives to Russian President Vladimir Putin. It’s a tactic that Ian Bremmer, the president of New York-based Eurasia Group, recently called the “weaponization of finance.”


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-20/financial-intelligence-grows-as-u-s-weapon-to-fight-bad-guys-.html
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January 24, 2015, 02:41:52 PM
 #20557

'Weaponization of Finance’
Financial intelligence has come into its own as the U.S. increasingly turns to sanctions, asset freezes and other financial actions to thwart adversaries from al-Qaeda operatives to Russian President Vladimir Putin. It’s a tactic that Ian Bremmer, the president of New York-based Eurasia Group, recently called the “weaponization of finance.”


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-20/financial-intelligence-grows-as-u-s-weapon-to-fight-bad-guys-.html

"Dollar Power
“If you look at what we call the weaponization of finance,” the Eurasia Group’s Bremmer said Jan. 5 on Bloomberg Television, “the U.S. dollar has been a much stronger lever of American power internationally than our combat forces have been over the course of the past couple of years.”
HeliKopterBen
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January 24, 2015, 02:51:33 PM
 #20558

Does it make sense to replace all Honda windshields with Lear style ones because they are 'more secure'.  

It does make sense to do so if the Lear style windshield is not only more secure, but also less expensive than the Honda style. Better and cheaper. No brainer.

I'm sure nobody would be able to make a transaction solution which is cheaper than real time flooding of the entire network with every transaction and keeping every transaction on every autonomous node in perpetuity...and every 'coin' (aka UTXO) in the currency system in memory.


It sounds like you're trying to make the point that keeping LOTS AND LOTS of copies of an entry in a ledger (i.e, the blockchain) is expensive. Like, I buy a cup of coffee, and this single transaction gets recorded LIKE A ZILLION TIMES all over the globe.

The average midsized town probably spends more on brick and mortar banking than the entire Bitcoin network costs to operate.  Good luck finding a cheaper, more secure solution.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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January 24, 2015, 03:06:54 PM
 #20559

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

I hear this thrown around a lot, but never seen any evidence for it. How has Bitpay/Coinbase pressured Gavin?

It's not unlikely that Gavin actually thinks this is a good idea and that's why he's working on it.

Im not saying this is what is happening, nor would i find any evidence about what is going on in one's head.
Just extrapolating that they may be a lot of forces driving or attempting to highjack bitcoin's development.
Capitalistic and private interest are likely playing their card on top of that, considering all the VC cash that has been thrown at bitcoin over the last couple years.
Besides Bitpay, Coinbase and other exchanges are indeed favoring the forking. they dont hide it.

Anyhow, it also seems Gavin is on the edge here with this whole thing, putting his legitimacy and authority as Bitcoin lead dev at risk if people in the end refuses to cope with the forked software.
Interesting times..
cypherdoc
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January 24, 2015, 03:12:43 PM
 #20560

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

I hear this thrown around a lot, but never seen any evidence for it. How has Bitpay/Coinbase pressured Gavin?

It's not unlikely that Gavin actually thinks this is a good idea and that's why he's working on it.

Im not saying this is what is happening, nor would i find any evidence about what is going on in one's head.
Just extrapolating that they may be a lot of forces driving or attempting to highjack bitcoin's development.
Capitalistic and private interest are likely playing their card on top of that, considering all the VC cash that has been thrown at bitcoin over the last couple years.
Besides it is proven that Bitpay, Coinbase and other exchanges are favoring the forking.

Anyhow, it also seems Gavin is on the edge here with this whole thing, putting his legitimacy and authority as Bitcoin lead dev at risk if people in the end refuses to cope with the forked software.
Interesting times..

But you have to look at the totality of the situatio.

Imo,  Gavin is working from a much higher level of moral authority than gmax. He's employed  by a non profit. Sure, he may be in the coinbase advisory board or something like that but unlike gmax he isn't CEO of a for profit company funded by a bunch of late comers who previously shunned Bitcoin.

I've got $21M that says I'm right.
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