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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1977894 times)
cypherdoc
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January 24, 2015, 06:18:54 AM
 #20521

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January 24, 2015, 06:22:00 AM
 #20522

what mining centralization?

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January 24, 2015, 07:08:35 AM
 #20523

Gold, Bitcoin & the US Dollar amid a Global Economic Slowdown

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113348/gold-bitcoin-the-us-dollar-amid-a-global-economic-slowdown

first time I'm not OT in a very long while Tongue

This part is bullshit:

"Under this backdrop, it is easy to see why the USD is surging as the US has stopped QE and indicated a rate hike at some point this year. The US is perceived to have the strongest economy in the world."

Everyone seems to forget the Fed just finished around $4T  in QE over 6 years. CB's simply do a Round Robin when  it comes to QE which creates am artificial "stability" in cross rate, when in fact, they're all devaluing at different intervals.  

This is why they are all so worried about Bitcoin and rightfully so.

      Most of the QE money has still not begun to circulate. Someone knows what they are doing.
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January 24, 2015, 07:29:18 AM
 #20524

Does it make sense to replace all Honda windshields with Lear style ones because they are 'more secure'.  

It does make sense to do so if the Lear style windshield is not only more secure, but also less expensive than the Honda style. Better and cheaper. No brainer.

I'm sure nobody would be able to make a transaction solution which is cheaper than real time flooding of the entire network with every transaction and keeping every transaction on every autonomous node in perpetuity...and every 'coin' (aka UTXO) in the currency system in memory.


It sounds like you're trying to make the point that keeping LOTS AND LOTS of copies of an entry in a ledger (i.e, the blockchain) is expensive. Like, I buy a cup of coffee, and this single transaction gets recorded LIKE A ZILLION TIMES all over the globe.

Is that what you're trying to say? If so, my response:

The number of perfectly identical copies of a single transaction is much less of an issue than the number of distinct ledgers and distinct ledger entries for that transaction. Did you ever stop to think about how many different ledgers/ledger entries does it take to buy a single cup of coffee with a credit card? This one transaction involves a complex flow of money that involves the customer, the merchant, the credit card, the POS (like square or paypal or whoever), and maybe more. That's at least 4 entities and with double entry accounting, there are probably at least 8 different tables that record this one transaction. I bet it's actually a lot more than that. At some point in time, multiple people have to make sure that all of this record keeping is consistent among all these different databases that are built and maintained by different people with different levels of expertise, using different conventions, different computer languages, etc etc. Suppose there is a discrepancy; which table contains the error? It's this process of reconciliation where the expense comes in.

When you go through that exercise, suddenly having one transaction recorded in ONE ledger that everyone trusts and refers to, sounds pretty simple. Who cares that this one ledger is duplicated many times over the globe?

Of course, we're not there yet. It will be a long time before we abandon the legacy fiat system entirely. But it will happen, eventually. Until then, we have about a zillion different ledgers spread across the planet, and we gotta make sure they alway stay reconciled. God help us.

BTC: 14oTcy1DNEXbcYjzPBpRWV11ZafWxNP8EU
solex
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January 24, 2015, 08:42:12 AM
 #20525

Some alt-coins are fading from the race. BTC-E is delisting three while it still has 40% of the exchange market in them.
Terracoin was one of the earliest.  Primecoin hashing was meant to do useful work besides secure its blockchain.

Quote
Dear participants of the BTC-e.com exchange!

Due to the low volume on TRC/BTC, FTC/BTC, XPM/BTC pairs, trades on those pairs will be closed since February 1, 2015.

https://btc-e.com/exchange/trc_btc TRC/BTC
https://btc-e.com/exchange/ftc_btc FTC/BTC
https://btc-e.com/exchange/xpm_btc XPM/BTC

Autamatical withdrawal of TRC, FTC and XPM will be available until March 31, 2015.

Sincerely yours,
btc-e.com support

https://btc-e.com/news/207

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January 24, 2015, 10:32:25 AM
 #20526


For a second I got excited thinking it was this Bill Gross.
http://www.forbes.com/profile/bill-gross/


Bro, do you even blockchain?
-E Voorhees
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January 24, 2015, 11:19:52 AM
 #20527

Gold, Bitcoin & the US Dollar amid a Global Economic Slowdown

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113348/gold-bitcoin-the-us-dollar-amid-a-global-economic-slowdown

first time I'm not OT in a very long while Tongue

This part is bullshit:

"Under this backdrop, it is easy to see why the USD is surging as the US has stopped QE and indicated a rate hike at some point this year. The US is perceived to have the strongest economy in the world."

Everyone seems to forget the Fed just finished around $4T  in QE over 6 years. CB's simply do a Round Robin when  it comes to QE which creates am artificial "stability" in cross rate, when in fact, they're all devaluing at different intervals.  

This is why they are all so worried about Bitcoin and rightfully so.

      Most of the QE money has still not begun to circulate. Someone knows what they are doing.

I think this QE is just money printing to generate inflation and devalue currencies until total credit market debt begins to explode again.
Must stave off a deflationary credit collapse by devaluing currency and maintaining asset prices until wages can support the next borrowing frenzy. The best thing is that the government debt everyone is concerned about can simply be cancelled leaving governments better off in terms of debt to GDP ratios. The only question is how do they stop without a giant crash? I think they simply say they have stopped at some point in the future but continue printing in stealth. At some point we will get significant inflation because this expansion of narrow money is real - and forms the base for the next credit boom. Banana economics!

Bitcoin just needs a spark of interest and there could be a flight into it like nothing ever seen before. This seems likely once the inflation rate has cut in half again after 2016. If any central bank murmurs about holding bitcoin in their reserves things will get real awfully quickly.
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January 24, 2015, 11:27:47 AM
 #20528

Just came across this video which helped me alot understanding the blocksize limit issue: http://keepbitcoinfree.org/
I found it quite amazing that Peter Tood came with it even before Gavin ran his tests about it and on his own..

From what i've seen on the bitcoin-dev logs, it seems gmaxwell just dont see the need for increasing the blocksize now, for there is still quite some place left. You dont fork the perfectly working bitcoin network in anticipation like that.
+ there is this argument that once the fork of 20MB is made, why not just consider infinite limit.

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

Consensus. Love that word. Smiley

ps: just trying to get it as i only aspire for bitcoin to succeed and grasp what this is all about since im invested in, so feel free to correct me if wrong.
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January 24, 2015, 02:22:43 PM
 #20529

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

I hear this thrown around a lot, but never seen any evidence for it. How has Bitpay/Coinbase pressured Gavin?

It's not unlikely that Gavin actually thinks this is a good idea and that's why he's working on it.

I think Monero (XMR) is very interesting.
https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters
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January 24, 2015, 02:36:22 PM
 #20530

'Weaponization of Finance’
Financial intelligence has come into its own as the U.S. increasingly turns to sanctions, asset freezes and other financial actions to thwart adversaries from al-Qaeda operatives to Russian President Vladimir Putin. It’s a tactic that Ian Bremmer, the president of New York-based Eurasia Group, recently called the “weaponization of finance.”


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-20/financial-intelligence-grows-as-u-s-weapon-to-fight-bad-guys-.html
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January 24, 2015, 02:41:52 PM
 #20531

'Weaponization of Finance’
Financial intelligence has come into its own as the U.S. increasingly turns to sanctions, asset freezes and other financial actions to thwart adversaries from al-Qaeda operatives to Russian President Vladimir Putin. It’s a tactic that Ian Bremmer, the president of New York-based Eurasia Group, recently called the “weaponization of finance.”


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-20/financial-intelligence-grows-as-u-s-weapon-to-fight-bad-guys-.html

"Dollar Power
“If you look at what we call the weaponization of finance,” the Eurasia Group’s Bremmer said Jan. 5 on Bloomberg Television, “the U.S. dollar has been a much stronger lever of American power internationally than our combat forces have been over the course of the past couple of years.”
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January 24, 2015, 02:51:33 PM
 #20532

Does it make sense to replace all Honda windshields with Lear style ones because they are 'more secure'.  

It does make sense to do so if the Lear style windshield is not only more secure, but also less expensive than the Honda style. Better and cheaper. No brainer.

I'm sure nobody would be able to make a transaction solution which is cheaper than real time flooding of the entire network with every transaction and keeping every transaction on every autonomous node in perpetuity...and every 'coin' (aka UTXO) in the currency system in memory.


It sounds like you're trying to make the point that keeping LOTS AND LOTS of copies of an entry in a ledger (i.e, the blockchain) is expensive. Like, I buy a cup of coffee, and this single transaction gets recorded LIKE A ZILLION TIMES all over the globe.

The average midsized town probably spends more on brick and mortar banking than the entire Bitcoin network costs to operate.  Good luck finding a cheaper, more secure solution.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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January 24, 2015, 03:06:54 PM
 #20533

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

I hear this thrown around a lot, but never seen any evidence for it. How has Bitpay/Coinbase pressured Gavin?

It's not unlikely that Gavin actually thinks this is a good idea and that's why he's working on it.

Im not saying this is what is happening, nor would i find any evidence about what is going on in one's head.
Just extrapolating that they may be a lot of forces driving or attempting to highjack bitcoin's development.
Capitalistic and private interest are likely playing their card on top of that, considering all the VC cash that has been thrown at bitcoin over the last couple years.
Besides Bitpay, Coinbase and other exchanges are indeed favoring the forking. they dont hide it.

Anyhow, it also seems Gavin is on the edge here with this whole thing, putting his legitimacy and authority as Bitcoin lead dev at risk if people in the end refuses to cope with the forked software.
Interesting times..
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January 24, 2015, 03:12:43 PM
 #20534

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

I hear this thrown around a lot, but never seen any evidence for it. How has Bitpay/Coinbase pressured Gavin?

It's not unlikely that Gavin actually thinks this is a good idea and that's why he's working on it.

Im not saying this is what is happening, nor would i find any evidence about what is going on in one's head.
Just extrapolating that they may be a lot of forces driving or attempting to highjack bitcoin's development.
Capitalistic and private interest are likely playing their card on top of that, considering all the VC cash that has been thrown at bitcoin over the last couple years.
Besides it is proven that Bitpay, Coinbase and other exchanges are favoring the forking.

Anyhow, it also seems Gavin is on the edge here with this whole thing, putting his legitimacy and authority as Bitcoin lead dev at risk if people in the end refuses to cope with the forked software.
Interesting times..

But you have to look at the totality of the situatio.

Imo,  Gavin is working from a much higher level of moral authority than gmax. He's employed  by a non profit. Sure, he may be in the coinbase advisory board or something like that but unlike gmax he isn't CEO of a for profit company funded by a bunch of late comers who previously shunned Bitcoin.

I've got $21M that says I'm right.
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January 24, 2015, 03:30:56 PM
 #20535

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

I hear this thrown around a lot, but never seen any evidence for it. How has Bitpay/Coinbase pressured Gavin?

It's not unlikely that Gavin actually thinks this is a good idea and that's why he's working on it.

Im not saying this is what is happening, nor would i find any evidence about what is going on in one's head.
Just extrapolating that they may be a lot of forces driving or attempting to highjack bitcoin's development.
Capitalistic and private interest are likely playing their card on top of that, considering all the VC cash that has been thrown at bitcoin over the last couple years.
Besides it is proven that Bitpay, Coinbase and other exchanges are favoring the forking.

Anyhow, it also seems Gavin is on the edge here with this whole thing, putting his legitimacy and authority as Bitcoin lead dev at risk if people in the end refuses to cope with the forked software.
Interesting times..

But you have to look at the totality of the situatio.

Imo,  Gavin is working from a much higher level of moral authority than gmax. He's employed  by a non profit. Sure, he may be in the coinbase advisory board or something like that but unlike gmax he isn't CEO of a for profit company funded by a bunch of late comers who previously shunned Bitcoin.

I've got $21M that says I'm right.

Ah i missed the point about gmax being involved in blockstream..  Undecided

What about Peter Todd?
Although affiliated to viacoin now, he seemed pretty foreseeing regarding that issue too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=208200.0


https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/557719826748440579
cypherdoc
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January 24, 2015, 03:47:37 PM
 #20536

IMHO Gavin has been pressurized by (private) business' interests such as Bitpay, Coinbase et al to push this (NYSE, CIA, and USgov too?!), but i am glad there is still some space to argue and not despotically rush into it.

I hear this thrown around a lot, but never seen any evidence for it. How has Bitpay/Coinbase pressured Gavin?

It's not unlikely that Gavin actually thinks this is a good idea and that's why he's working on it.

Im not saying this is what is happening, nor would i find any evidence about what is going on in one's head.
Just extrapolating that they may be a lot of forces driving or attempting to highjack bitcoin's development.
Capitalistic and private interest are likely playing their card on top of that, considering all the VC cash that has been thrown at bitcoin over the last couple years.
Besides it is proven that Bitpay, Coinbase and other exchanges are favoring the forking.

Anyhow, it also seems Gavin is on the edge here with this whole thing, putting his legitimacy and authority as Bitcoin lead dev at risk if people in the end refuses to cope with the forked software.
Interesting times..

But you have to look at the totality of the situatio.

Imo,  Gavin is working from a much higher level of moral authority than gmax. He's employed  by a non profit. Sure, he may be in the coinbase advisory board or something like that but unlike gmax he isn't CEO of a for profit company funded by a bunch of late comers who previously shunned Bitcoin.

I've got $21M that says I'm right.

Ah i missed the point about gmax being involved in blockstream..  Undecided

What about Peter Todd?
Although affiliated to viacoin now, he seemed pretty foreseeing regarding that issue too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=208200.0


https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/557719826748440579


Peter's fairly neutral, altho radical & boisterous at times.  i used to be more concerned when Mastercoin seemed to be his main project but nowadays, especially since Mastercoin seems pretty dead, he appears to be affiliated to a bunch of diverse and different projects so i'm less concerned and hence value his opinion more.
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January 24, 2015, 03:57:06 PM
 #20537

really interesting post by srebin over on Reddit about what's going on in Bulgaria and surrounding regions:

[–]srebrin 5 points an hour ago

I've been a depositor at KTB pyramid, for which i got paid an interest of nearly 9%, paid out in installment of 4 months. The pyramid advertised itself as the bank of the rich which probably was true considering that many from the upper echelons of the ruling parasites had "special" interest arrangements nearing 10-11% interest! I realized that in an economic environment of depressed credit expansion, outflow capitals, collapsing real estate prices (nearly 40% from the top in 2008) there is no way on earth they could possibly sustain this kinds of interest payments and kept my ears and eyes open for the slightest of troubles with the rulers as to move my electronic debt based money promise out of them. That is what i did just 3 days before the pyramid was closed in June 2014 as news was spreading that the pyramid chief - Cvetan Vasilev, was in a row with one of the ruling parties (DPS) which is famous for staying in power ever since the collapse of the previous rulers regime - the red communists turned into newly baked crony-capitalists.

The total assets of the pyramid were over 3 billion euros, of which within the "guaranteed" electronic money was 2 billion. In the so called guarantee fund there were less than 2 billion after 17 years of collecting fees on the bank assets, for which the rulers took on a state debt to be payed by the tax slaves in the next couple of generations as to fulfill the "promise". Bulgaria is in a currency board to the euro since 1997, after the hyper inflationary collapse caused by 17 failed banks (orchestrated of course) that run away with 2.5billion dollars of value at the time, only 7 years after the change of the clothes of the previous rulers to a new kind with fancier ideas like "democracy for the masses". This is to show that in 2014 only one of the nearly 30 banking pyramids operating in the country, stole more than the previous 17 failed banks in 1997. As interest payments were MUCH higher in all banks because of the distorted market place by the bankrupt KTB pyramid, lots of hot money was flowing from depositors speculating by spreading their eggs in higher risk tax farms like bulgaria, ukraine, moldova, mongolia, turkey etc. Now, all this money flow has reversed and I expect that more pyramids are in trouble than most people realize and probably unless the rulers take a lot more debt, there will be a contagion in the months to come as things unravel. The latest big bank to come into the spotlight is FIB (or PIB, first investment bank) for which news is spreading with a huge credit exposure to very few companies and persons with total credits way above the 25% regulatory limit of all assets. FIB is the 3rd biggest bank and already received state liquidity last summer (600million euro) as there was a bank run affecting them and other bulgarian-owned banks, considering how fragile the confidence level is with any of those pyramids. What is funny the KTB owner is now in Serbia, as it is outside the EU empire and can not be extradited as easy as within it upon request. He has put a couple of a hundred million euros in companies in serbia, money stolen from depositors of course, and probably is under the protection of the serbian rulers as they seem to do everything possible to delay any extradition proceedings. Before the pyramid officially was closed, they boosted less than 2% default rate whereas in the other banks it is nearly 20% considering the real estate as collateral has gone down dramatically. Suddenly, after its closure the regulators at the central bank has published that it had over 50% default rate which was masked through new deposits coming in at the promise of high return and issuing new credits to the bad companies to repay bad loans and mask the whole think up! No normal wain person with leave his saved up toilet paper with any of the banks these days as there is in the air talks of overturning the currency board and hyper inflating the bad debt as they did in 1997.

tl.dr: whoever has any brains is getting his money out of any bank in bulgaria as the political uncertainty is too great of a risk

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[–]Byzantine-General 2 points 50 minutes ago

Agree with you that First Investment Bank will be the next to fall.

Several newspapers have been fined for reporting on FIBank's financial troubles based on a recent law

http://en.rsf.org/bulgaria-authorities-ramp-up-pressure-on-21-01-2015,47516.html

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http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2tia8f/at_the_same_time_bitstamp_was_robbed_of_6_million/cnzca6d
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January 24, 2015, 04:17:10 PM
 #20538

Banking Culture Encourages Dishonesty

The authors conclude that the prevailing business culture in the banking industry weakens and undermines honesty. Research in moral psychology and behavioral ethics, however, suggests that the dishonesty may be due something more basic: money and number crunching are an important part of the banking industry. When people are focused on money, research shows, they behave in self-interested ways. Even thinking about money leads people to be less helpful and fair in their dealings with others, to be less sensitive to social rejection, and to work harder toward personal goals. In fact, money can make us so focused on our selfish motives that it can even lead to unethical behavior. In my own research, for instance, I find that university students were more likely to cheat after seeing 7,000 dollar bills than after seeing 24. Similarly, study participants across a variety of studies were more likely to cheat when they were primed to think about money.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/banking-culture-encourages-dishonesty/
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January 24, 2015, 04:49:30 PM
 #20539

Does it make sense to replace all Honda windshields with Lear style ones because they are 'more secure'.  

It does make sense to do so if the Lear style windshield is not only more secure, but also less expensive than the Honda style. Better and cheaper. No brainer.

I'm sure nobody would be able to make a transaction solution which is cheaper than real time flooding of the entire network with every transaction and keeping every transaction on every autonomous node in perpetuity...and every 'coin' (aka UTXO) in the currency system in memory.


It sounds like you're trying to make the point that keeping LOTS AND LOTS of copies of an entry in a ledger (i.e, the blockchain) is expensive. Like, I buy a cup of coffee, and this single transaction gets recorded LIKE A ZILLION TIMES all over the globe.

Is that what you're trying to say? If so, my response:

The number of perfectly identical copies of a single transaction is much less of an issue than the number of distinct ledgers and distinct ledger entries for that transaction. Did you ever stop to think about how many different ledgers/ledger entries does it take to buy a single cup of coffee with a credit card? This one transaction involves a complex flow of money that involves the customer, the merchant, the credit card, the POS (like square or paypal or whoever), and maybe more. That's at least 4 entities and with double entry accounting, there are probably at least 8 different tables that record this one transaction. I bet it's actually a lot more than that. At some point in time, multiple people have to make sure that all of this record keeping is consistent among all these different databases that are built and maintained by different people with different levels of expertise, using different conventions, different computer languages, etc etc. Suppose there is a discrepancy; which table contains the error? It's this process of reconciliation where the expense comes in.

When you go through that exercise, suddenly having one transaction recorded in ONE ledger that everyone trusts and refers to, sounds pretty simple. Who cares that this one ledger is duplicated many times over the globe?

Of course, we're not there yet. It will be a long time before we abandon the legacy fiat system entirely. But it will happen, eventually. Until then, we have about a zillion different ledgers spread across the planet, and we gotta make sure they alway stay reconciled. God help us.


You are exactly right, and:

Most naysayers and trolls compare blockchain transactions to credit card transactions. That is false, bitcoin transactions are like moving fiat notes from hand to hand. Bitcoins can be compared to fiat notes. We can easily build card systems on top of bitcoins when needed, credit cards and debit cards and gift cards, with cooperating businesses as third parties.

It will probably never be viable to replace all fiat person to person transactions with blockchain transactions, but luckily, we have another option for that: exchanging bitcoin paper wallets with keys directly. Trust needed, but less trust than with fiat notes, because the paper wallet can be checked against the blockchain when desired, and the bitcoins can be moved from the paper wallet back to non physical form at any time.


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January 24, 2015, 05:13:38 PM
 #20540


But you have to look at the totality of the situatio.

Imo,  Gavin is working from a much higher level of moral authority than gmax. He's employed  by a non profit. Sure, he may be in the coinbase advisory board or something like that but unlike gmax he isn't CEO of a for profit company funded by a bunch of late comers who previously shunned Bitcoin.

I've got $21M that says I'm right.

Gavin gets up in front of a crowd of Silicon Valley VC types for the 'state of the union' thing and the first words out of his mouth are the standard 'need to innovate or die' tripe.

Gavin pulls in $200k/yr from a 'non-profit' that he and Vassenes (who seemed to have popped out of the ether to lead a lot of things) put together.  That group (the Bitcoin Foundation) counts as it's members a whole bunch of people who are almost certainly simple thieves and dopey criminals.  The attrition off it's board of directors from arrests and prosecutions is stunning.

Gavin seems to be the only guy who is paid specifically to do things to Bitcoin.  Garzik is paid by Bitpay, but as near as I can see the work he does on Bitcoin and his philosophies and judgements don't seem to have changed a lot and a lot of the don't seem to align with the interests of his employer.

Maxwell and ~sipa are among the most productive and skilled of the Bitcoin devs, and Back has a long history in the space which pre-dates Bitcoin.  Maxwell is publicly visible and I've never detected anything he's said which indicated that he was in any way non-genuine.  Since I've been watching the commits back in 2011, ~sipa has seemed to be the principle architect of Bitcoin.  Hired by Google long after he became a key part of Bitcoin, worked for them briefly then apparently quit maybe around the time a preponderance of the most important of the core developers formed some sort of a grouping as Blockstream.

I am fairly certain that if Blockstream passed themselves off as a 'non-profit' (which is pretty meaningless as a label these days) people who have some reason to be threatened by their goals for Bitcoin would rail on them for not being sufficiently free-market or some other nonsense.

I'll withhold judgement on Blockstream in operation until I see first hand how transparent they are in their operations and production of code and so forth.  I am as hopeful for them in these regards as I have been of any effort on the basis of who's involved.  It speaks well for the organization that the likes of Maxwell and Back take some time to interact with the community and in the same open and honest manner that they have done before Blockstream was formed.


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