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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2009532 times)
79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
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January 29, 2015, 11:46:33 PM
 #20801

Wtf is this? Listen to this interview of Tim Swanson. At 53 min,  he says he talked to gmax about "Smart property" whereby mining manufacturers, with the assistance of core devs (sounds like Blockstream core devs)  would build in miner "kill switches" in the event they were found to be attacking SC's. THAT is a stupid, ridiculous, un-open source idea. Supposedly, they are keeping it hush hush.

https://epicenterbitcoin.com/
i did not watch the video, but it does not seem this could work. who would buy the zombie miners? it's not like hackers wouldn't be able to tell they are running supervised gear.

on the other hand, who knows, we seem to be listlessly driving around in death-by-remote-control machines (article from 2011, it has gotten and will get far worse):
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/business/10hack.html?_r=0
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January 30, 2015, 12:56:16 AM
 #20802

I've heard it said both ways....good money drives out bad.  Bad money drives out good.  However you say it, it just means you're not going to spend something if you think it's going to appreciate in value.  It doesn't get much simpler than that

That doesn't work. For a transaction to occur, buyer and seller must agree on the terms. If the buyer won't spend his money because he thinks it will appreciate, then the seller won't accept money he expects to depreciate. They have to meet in the middle somewhere.

They do that with a thing called "price".
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January 30, 2015, 01:00:44 AM
 #20803

The blockchain is a fantastic invention, and can surely be used for other purposes. For instance settlement of stock sales. Why would that be a good idea? Listen to our friend Patrick M. Byrne in this movie, starting from 16:50. (The whole film is well worth listening to). It turns out that the system of settlements have fault tolerance, which means that the number of shares in circulation for a company is not necessarily consistent with the number of shares listed in the reports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGyPQ_cO6l8

I envision a block chain system, run by an association of interested parties, where each listed company and broker has a miner running, and the coins=shares are centrally issued, and the payment for the mining is just agreed upon in the association. The addresses could be just the name of the current owner of the stock. Just as in the bitcoin blockchain, it will be consistent, guaranteed by the majority of all miners, and nobody could sell a stock they didn't own, by mistake.

The big point here is: It does not have to be in the bitcoin blockchain. As long as the "coins" represent something in real life, trust is required, and that trust could easily be extended to include mining for an agreed upon reward (or the burden could be shared equally).


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January 30, 2015, 01:07:12 AM
 #20804

Gresham's Law is statement about the effects of legal tender laws - not a statement referring to any kind of intrinsic property of money.
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January 30, 2015, 02:35:48 AM
 #20805

Gresham's Law is statement about the effects of legal tender laws - not a statement referring to any kind of intrinsic property of money.
Yes, though it may include the notion of an intrinsic property being in contrast with the governmentally defined value:

http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard260.html

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As an outpost of Great Britain, colonial America of course used British pounds, pence, and shillings as its money. Great Britain was officially on a silver standard, with the shilling defined as equal to 86 pure Troy grains of silver, and with silver as so-defined legal tender for all debts (that is, creditors were compelled to accept silver at that rate). However, Britain also coined gold and maintained a bimetallic standard by fixing the gold guinea, weighing 129.4 grains of gold, as equal in value to a certain weight of silver. In that way, gold became, in effect, legal tender as well. Unfortunately, by establishing bimetallism, Britain became perpetually subject to the evil known as Gresham's law, which states that when government compulsorily overvalues one money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation. Hence, the popular catchphrase of Gresham's Law: "Bad money drives out good." But the important point to note is that the triumph of "bad" money is the result, not of perverse free-market competition, but of government using the compulsory legal tender power to privilege one money above another.

So the notion of overvaluing and undervaluing suggests that there is some other value, (perhaps intrinsic), abstracted from and in contrast to, the value defined by a government.

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January 30, 2015, 03:18:43 AM
 #20806

I've heard it said both ways....good money drives out bad.  Bad money drives out good.  However you say it, it just means you're not going to spend something if you think it's going to appreciate in value.  It doesn't get much simpler than that

That doesn't work. For a transaction to occur, buyer and seller must agree on the terms. If the buyer won't spend his money because he thinks it will appreciate, then the seller won't accept money he expects to depreciate. They have to meet in the middle somewhere.

They do that with a thing called "price".

Exactly. At which point the buyer will be willing to spend "better" money or the seller will be willing to accept "worse" money, or both.

So the bad doesn't drive out the good after all, in any meaningful sense that applies here.



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January 30, 2015, 04:05:29 AM
 #20807

Wtf is this? Listen to this interview of Tim Swanson. At 53 min,  he says he talked to gmax about "Smart property" whereby mining manufacturers, with the assistance of core devs (sounds like Blockstream core devs)  would build in miner "kill switches" in the event they were found to be attacking SC's. THAT is a stupid, ridiculous, un-open source idea. Supposedly, they are keeping it hush hush.

https://epicenterbitcoin.com/

ok, just got off Skype with vcorem, founder of Spondoolies.

i'm not sure which i'm more relieved by; that gmax didn't add another techno commie maneuver to his resume or that Tim Swanson did add another anti-Bitcoin douchbag red herring rumor to his resume.

apparently, Tim has misunderstood what Spondoolies wants to try and implement; an RTL logic that would lock an ASIC miner to a particular cloud mining customer up to a specific block height thus preventing fraud in cloud mining contracts.  that sounds like a reasonable thing to do.  it's NOT a kill switch like Tim was blathering on about.  what an idiot.

sigh.  what we have to endure.
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January 30, 2015, 04:15:47 AM
 #20808

Pretty disappointed Reddit seems to be abandoning it's cryptocurrency plans.  Angry

https://twitter.com/ryanxcharles/status/560922573769170944


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I was hired as cryptocurency engineer in September, for which I left my job at BitPay. I was won-over by the then-CEO Yishan, who had an awesome vision for the future of reddit, including cryptocurrency as the financial system of the internet city that is reddit. However, Yishan suddenly and unexpectedly resigned his position a month or two later, probably due to exhaustion. This was in the midst of great existing turmoil at the company, such as moving the entire, formerly-remote company to SF, raising a new round of $50 million


probably those silly SEC folk again making things difficult Huh
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January 30, 2015, 04:31:31 AM
 #20809

Pretty disappointed Reddit seems to be abandoning it's cryptocurrency plans.  Angry

https://twitter.com/ryanxcharles/status/560922573769170944


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I was hired as cryptocurency engineer in September, for which I left my job at BitPay. I was won-over by the then-CEO Yishan, who had an awesome vision for the future of reddit, including cryptocurrency as the financial system of the internet city that is reddit. However, Yishan suddenly and unexpectedly resigned his position a month or two later, probably due to exhaustion. This was in the midst of great existing turmoil at the company, such as moving the entire, formerly-remote company to SF, raising a new round of $50 million


probably those silly SEC folk again making things difficult Huh

why would they want to go up against Bitcoin as an altcoin anyway?  needless pain.

let 'em just accept Bitcoin pmts.  that's all they need to do.
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January 30, 2015, 05:21:20 AM
 #20810

Pretty disappointed Reddit seems to be abandoning it's cryptocurrency plans.  Angry

https://twitter.com/ryanxcharles/status/560922573769170944

Quote
I was hired as cryptocurency engineer in September, for which I left my job at BitPay. I was won-over by the then-CEO Yishan, who had an awesome vision for the future of reddit, including cryptocurrency as the financial system of the internet city that is reddit. However, Yishan suddenly and unexpectedly resigned his position a month or two later, probably due to exhaustion. This was in the midst of great existing turmoil at the company, such as moving the entire, formerly-remote company to SF, raising a new round of $50 million

probably those silly SEC folk again making things difficult Huh

It would be a no-brainer to just wait a quarter or two for sidechains then commission Blockstream to help with design.  Alt's are history though I'm sure there will still be a few lingering dead-ender scams.  Any alt with at least semi-pure motives would be delighted to switch to a sidechain backing.


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January 30, 2015, 07:19:39 AM
 #20811

this is trouble; for the Europeans and major lenders of Greek debt:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-29/alexis-tsipras-open-letter-germany-what-you-were-never-told-about-greece

note how some leaders actually think like we think.

Wow he's so far "left" he's come full circle and is on the right.  No more bailouts.   Just declare bankruptcy and move on
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January 30, 2015, 04:07:25 PM
 #20812

Just for the sake of being OT Smiley

2nd Workshop on Bitcoin Research is a very interesting event organized at "Financial Cryptography and Data Security 2015" conference.

And more to the point the proceedings is freely available, really interesting stuff, just to name a few talks:

  • On the Malleability of Bitcoin Transactions
  • Trends, Tips, Tolls: A Longitudinal Study of Bitcoin Transaction Fees
  • Privacy-Enhancing Overlays in Bitcoin


@zooko is even sharing his workshop minutes on twitter.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
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January 30, 2015, 04:13:15 PM
 #20813

It would be a no-brainer to just wait a quarter or two for sidechains then commission Blockstream to help with design.  Alt's are history though I'm sure there will still be a few lingering dead-ender scams.  Any alt with at least semi-pure motives would be delighted to switch to a sidechain backing.

I can see all Alt's pegging to BTC via sidechains, allow x-chain transactions, could be a great thing (despite the downfalls which cypher has eluded to). 

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January 30, 2015, 04:20:06 PM
 #20814

It would be a no-brainer to just wait a quarter or two for sidechains then commission Blockstream to help with design.  Alt's are history though I'm sure there will still be a few lingering dead-ender scams.  Any alt with at least semi-pure motives would be delighted to switch to a sidechain backing.

I can see all Alt's pegging to BTC via sidechains, allow x-chain transactions, could be a great thing (despite the downfalls which cypher has eluded to). 



the only great thing about it is that the alts will be allowed to siphon all the value out of the Bitcoin MC.  great for alt devs and investors, not for Bitcoin holders.
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January 30, 2015, 04:22:38 PM
 #20815

the great sucking sound of the huge black hole of shit continues apace:

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January 30, 2015, 04:26:23 PM
 #20816

i thought nat gas was the next great bull mkt putting the US on top of the energy pyramid?

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January 30, 2015, 04:28:03 PM
 #20817

the only great thing about it is that the alts will be allowed to siphon all the value out of the Bitcoin MC.  great for alt devs and investors, not for Bitcoin holders.

I don't necessarily agree, I believe Bitcoin will remain king, people will treat Bitcoin as the "central bank", where they hold their savings and assets, plus it will bring incredible functionality to Bitcoin.  Think about a killer sidechain feature that brings in 1 million new users, that is a good thing.  We are far too small of a user base to think about limiting options, and I believe sidechains could bring in a lot of new people, which is what we need.  

I know it's a really tired argument and I agree with a lot of things you say, not trying to ignite another debate.
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January 30, 2015, 04:28:17 PM
 #20818

It would be a no-brainer to just wait a quarter or two for sidechains then commission Blockstream to help with design.  Alt's are history though I'm sure there will still be a few lingering dead-ender scams.  Any alt with at least semi-pure motives would be delighted to switch to a sidechain backing.

I can see all Alt's pegging to BTC via sidechains, allow x-chain transactions, could be a great thing (despite the downfalls which cypher has eluded to). 



the only great thing about it is that the alts will be allowed to siphon all the value out of the Bitcoin MC.  great for alt devs and investors, not for Bitcoin holders.

tbh, i think the new wave of alt coins wouldnt even want to be pegged to btc.. the new 2.0 ones see btc as an archaic relic in the crypto currency space. why tie a lambo to a horse? just doesnt make sense for the few(very few) that actually have a bright future.

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January 30, 2015, 04:41:08 PM
 #20819

tbh, i think the new wave of alt coins wouldnt even want to be pegged to btc.. the new 2.0 ones see btc as an archaic relic in the crypto currency space. why tie a lambo to a horse? just doesnt make sense for the few(very few) that actually have a bright future.

This way of thinking will lead to the end of Alts.  BTC is the entry for all new users, then they discover alts, etc..  BTC is attracting 99% of real world investment money.  If you pegged an Alt to BTC, you just increased your user base by several million.  People looks at Alts as a way to make more BTC, plain and simple.
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January 30, 2015, 04:44:28 PM
 #20820

tbh, i think the new wave of alt coins wouldnt even want to be pegged to btc.. the new 2.0 ones see btc as an archaic relic in the crypto currency space. why tie a lambo to a horse? just doesnt make sense for the few(very few) that actually have a bright future.

This way of thinking will lead to the end of Alts.  BTC is the entry for all new users, then they discover alts, etc..  BTC is attracting 99% of real world investment money.  If you pegged an Alt to BTC, you just increased your user base by several million.  People looks at Alts as a way to make more BTC, plain and simple.

thats how it is now. it may not be like that 5 years from now. its only a matter of time before more people start to see that bitcoin is outdated in terms of cryptocurrency technology. you and many other bitcoiners might not see that yet, but eventually more and more will. of course it wont happen over night but it will happen.

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