Bitcoin Forum
July 27, 2017, 07:01:55 AM *
News: BIP91 seems stable: there's probably only slightly increased risk of confirmations disappearing. You should still prepare for Aug 1.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 [1044] 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1939205 times)
NotLambchop
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 05:43:04 PM
 #20861

^Didn't make myself clear.  I didn't mean to imply that Bitcoin's lack of scalability has prevented anyone from making money on it.  Just assumed that such fundamental, conceptual flaws would have been addressed by now.
Guess not Undecided
1501138915
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1501138915

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1501138915
Reply with quote  #2

1501138915
Report to moderator
1501138915
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1501138915

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1501138915
Reply with quote  #2

1501138915
Report to moderator
Decentralized search
Search for products or services and get paid for it
Join pre-ICO
25 July. 50% discount
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1501138915
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1501138915

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1501138915
Reply with quote  #2

1501138915
Report to moderator
Erdogan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756



View Profile
January 31, 2015, 05:50:53 PM
 #20862


There is no doubt that a single forever remembered blockchain cannot handle every tip or coffee bought so offchain or better sidechains are needed.  But that does not mean that BTC should not also be scaled in block size.  With the price trending down discouraging new holders we need to welcome any and all real use.  And approaching a txn limit does not help that.

I would not be at all surprised if Bitcoin were to become more in-demand if it DID start to cost something to use it.  Psychologically, if someone is given something 'for free' than it is not valued very highly.  As soon as it starts to cost something then it starts to be more highly prized.

Since most thinking persons are starting to catch on to the fact that it does not make sense to broadcast every cup of java purchase to every decentralized infrastructure provider (to hold forever) and Bitcoin's only realistic role is to be for higher importance transactions, having to pay at least to cost of network operation for transactions is, in my opinion, a positive and something we should be migrating towards.  Probably by shortly after then next coinbase notch-down (roughly 8 years from the genesis block) we should get to that point.  It's very much up-in-the-air about whether that will happen even if the block size stays at 1MB.



You have got the pricing of transaction backwards. If it is usful to transact, and the transactions are limited, it will have a price. If there is a nontrivial price, that means it is usful. What will happen when we reach the limit, is that the price of transactions will rise, and then, if the block size is increased, the price will fall again.

We obviously need to be able to serve lot of transactions, if we want bitcoin to be widely used. But costly transactions is not a definitive stop, it will only deter the least important transactions. USD10 is still cheap, and you can do a lot of mining for USD10 per transaction.



inca
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 05:52:45 PM
 #20863

^Didn't make myself clear.  I didn't mean to imply that Bitcoin's lack of scalability has prevented anyone from making money on it.  Just assumed that such fundamental, conceptual flaws would have been addressed by now.
Guess not Undecided

Ignoring proposed scalability solutions is fun isn't it?
tvbcof
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2212


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 05:57:18 PM
 #20864

^Didn't make myself clear.  I didn't mean to imply that Bitcoin's lack of scalability has prevented anyone from making money on it.  I just assumed that such fundamental, conceptual flaws would have been addressed by now.
Guess not Undecided

One cannot change the laws of nature.  There is no 'fixing' this 'fundamental flaw', and I suspect that many many people never really considered it including most of the devs.  'Addressing it' is a different matter.  A few of the devs looked toward the mainstream (mega-corporations to provide infrastructure and the state sponsored legal protections) but happily this doesn't seem to be the first option for most of them.

For my part I don't consider this 'fundamental flaw' to be a flaw at all.  I consider it more a happy accident of fate and a a feature of reality which produces the potential to make native Bitcoin a system actually work in the real world.  By 'work', I mean to remain a genuinely autonomous and independent solution which is robust against attack by vested power interests.

As I've said before, the idea of sidechains hit me right away as a means of scaling, and I argued to call native Bitcoin 'blockchain zero' back in 2011.  As long as this chain can remain uncorrupted and supportable it really doesn't matter what happens on the infinite number of chains which derive their value from it.


brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:13:13 PM
 #20865

^Didn't make myself clear.  I didn't mean to imply that Bitcoin's lack of scalability has prevented anyone from making money on it.  Just assumed that such fundamental, conceptual flaws would have been addressed by now.
Guess not Undecided

Only if you pretend it is a flaw and not an opportunity for others to build onto the protocol to create solutions that meet the markets demands

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
NotLambchop
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:24:30 PM
 #20866

^Didn't make myself clear.  I didn't mean to imply that Bitcoin's lack of scalability has prevented anyone from making money on it.  I just assumed that such fundamental, conceptual flaws would have been addressed by now.
Guess not Undecided

One cannot change the laws of nature.  There is no 'fixing' this 'fundamental flaw', and I suspect that many many people never really considered it including most of the devs.  'Addressing it' is a different matter.  A few of the devs looked toward the mainstream (mega-corporations to provide infrastructure and the state sponsored legal protections) but happily this doesn't seem to be the first option for most of them.

For my part I don't consider this 'fundamental flaw' to be a flaw at all.  I consider it more a happy accident of fate and a a feature of reality which produces the potential to make native Bitcoin a system actually work in the real world.  By 'work', I mean to remain a genuinely autonomous and independent solution which is robust against attack by vested power interests.

As I've said before, the idea of sidechains hit me right away as a means of scaling, and I argued to call native Bitcoin 'blockchain zero' back in 2011.  As long as this chain can remain uncorrupted and supportable it really doesn't matter what happens on the infinite number of chains which derive their value from it.

Not sure I fully understand.  You are happy that Bitcoin is not a practical substitute for money after six years of development, in its current state? Useful only as a peg, a standard on top of which further payment systems must be developed?

My question still stands:  This [happy accident/feature/totally not a problem] was clear at the outset, why was it not addressed until now?
NotLambchop
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:31:22 PM
 #20867

...
Only if you pretend it is a flaw and not an opportunity for others to build onto the protocol to create solutions that meet the markets demands

When you buy a house & realize you've been sold an empty lot, look at it as an opportunity--you've been sold a chance to build your own!
Coinshot
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 523


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:32:37 PM
 #20868

I am not too bullish on BTC anymore, I think BTC has yet to find its bottom. It may be better to invest in Silver now.


██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▄▄▄███████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▀▀▀████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████



...INTRODUCING WAVES........
...ULTIMATE ASSET/CUSTOM TOKEN BLOCKCHAIN PLATFORM...






brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:33:39 PM
 #20869

^Didn't make myself clear.  I didn't mean to imply that Bitcoin's lack of scalability has prevented anyone from making money on it.  I just assumed that such fundamental, conceptual flaws would have been addressed by now.
Guess not Undecided

One cannot change the laws of nature.  There is no 'fixing' this 'fundamental flaw', and I suspect that many many people never really considered it including most of the devs.  'Addressing it' is a different matter.  A few of the devs looked toward the mainstream (mega-corporations to provide infrastructure and the state sponsored legal protections) but happily this doesn't seem to be the first option for most of them.

For my part I don't consider this 'fundamental flaw' to be a flaw at all.  I consider it more a happy accident of fate and a a feature of reality which produces the potential to make native Bitcoin a system actually work in the real world.  By 'work', I mean to remain a genuinely autonomous and independent solution which is robust against attack by vested power interests.

As I've said before, the idea of sidechains hit me right away as a means of scaling, and I argued to call native Bitcoin 'blockchain zero' back in 2011.  As long as this chain can remain uncorrupted and supportable it really doesn't matter what happens on the infinite number of chains which derive their value from it.

Not sure I fully understand.  You are happy that Bitcoin is not a practical substitute for money after six years of development, in its current state? Useful only as a peg, a standard on top of which further payment systems must be developed?

My question still stands:  This [happy accident/feature/totally not a problem] was clear at the outset, why was it not addressed until now?

Bitcoin "payment network" not being able to scale natively to record, validate & retain every coffee purchase does not make it flawed as a proposition for a sound form of money.

The idea of Bitcoin as "a standard on top of which further payment systems must be developed" was, afaik, envisioned by most everyone with a hint of foresight.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:35:24 PM
 #20870

...
Only if you pretend it is a flaw and not an opportunity for others to build onto the protocol to create solutions that meet the markets demands

When you buy a house & realize you've been sold an empty lot, look at it as an opportunity--you've been sold a chance to build your own!

No one ever pretended Bitcoin would natively scale to handle all of the world's transactions

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Coinshot
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 523


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:37:25 PM
 #20871

...
Only if you pretend it is a flaw and not an opportunity for others to build onto the protocol to create solutions that meet the markets demands

When you buy a house & realize you've been sold an empty lot, look at it as an opportunity--you've been sold a chance to build your own!

No one ever pretended Bitcoin would natively scale to handle all of the world's transactions

Its not even that good as a payment mechanism. Its useful as an easy store as opposed to, say, gold.


██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▄▄▄███████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▀▀▀████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████



...INTRODUCING WAVES........
...ULTIMATE ASSET/CUSTOM TOKEN BLOCKCHAIN PLATFORM...






NotLambchop
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:44:58 PM
 #20872

...
Bitcoin "payment network" not being able to scale natively to record, validate & retain every coffee purchase does not make it flawed as a proposition for a sound form of money.

The idea of Bitcoin as "a standard on top of which further payment systems must be developed" was, afaik, envisioned by most everyone with a hint of foresight.

I was told that Bitcoin was meant to do just that--"validate & retain every coffee purchase."  That's what made it so interesting.  Many here still don't get that Bitcoin is no more a proof of concept--an experiment.  A precursor, perhaps useful as a standard.
No more likely to replace money than an atomic [time standard] clock is to replace wristwatches.
hdbuck
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:49:33 PM
 #20873

^Didn't make myself clear.  I didn't mean to imply that Bitcoin's lack of scalability has prevented anyone from making money on it.  I just assumed that such fundamental, conceptual flaws would have been addressed by now.
Guess not Undecided

One cannot change the laws of nature.  There is no 'fixing' this 'fundamental flaw', and I suspect that many many people never really considered it including most of the devs.  'Addressing it' is a different matter.  A few of the devs looked toward the mainstream (mega-corporations to provide infrastructure and the state sponsored legal protections) but happily this doesn't seem to be the first option for most of them.

For my part I don't consider this 'fundamental flaw' to be a flaw at all.  I consider it more a happy accident of fate and a a feature of reality which produces the potential to make native Bitcoin a system actually work in the real world.  By 'work', I mean to remain a genuinely autonomous and independent solution which is robust against attack by vested power interests.

As I've said before, the idea of sidechains hit me right away as a means of scaling, and I argued to call native Bitcoin 'blockchain zero' back in 2011.  As long as this chain can remain uncorrupted and supportable it really doesn't matter what happens on the infinite number of chains which derive their value from it.

Not sure I fully understand.  You are happy that Bitcoin is not a practical substitute for money after six years of development, in its current state? Useful only as a peg, a standard on top of which further payment systems must be developed?

My question still stands:  This [happy accident/feature/totally not a problem] was clear at the outset, why was it not addressed until now?

Bitcoin "payment network" not being able to scale natively to record, validate & retain every coffee purchase does not make it flawed as a proposition for a sound form of money.

The idea of Bitcoin as "a standard on top of which further payment systems must be developed" was, afaik, envisioned by most everyone with a hint of foresight.



exactly my thoughts.
anyway after wondering around a bit, i think a full consensus wont possibly be reached.
im gonna play the prudence here, letting people jump first.
as i understood it wont be reversible once done, and im not in the rush of moving my bitcoins.

brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:49:37 PM
 #20874

...
Only if you pretend it is a flaw and not an opportunity for others to build onto the protocol to create solutions that meet the markets demands

When you buy a house & realize you've been sold an empty lot, look at it as an opportunity--you've been sold a chance to build your own!

No one ever pretended Bitcoin would natively scale to handle all of the world's transactions

Its not even that good as a payment mechanism. Its useful as an easy store as opposed to, say, gold.

It's actually as good as it gets right now as a payment mechanism (other than the obvious scaling issues)

But that is only because traditional financial infrastructure has been lagging behind something serious for the last decades. It is likely that centralized platforms will eventually catch up and be more efficient than Bitcoin's base protocol.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
NotLambchop
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:51:51 PM
 #20875

...
Only if you pretend it is a flaw and not an opportunity for others to build onto the protocol to create solutions that meet the markets demands

When you buy a house & realize you've been sold an empty lot, look at it as an opportunity--you've been sold a chance to build your own!

No one ever pretended Bitcoin would natively scale to handle all of the world's transactions

Would it surprise you to know that many Bitcointalk users think Bitcoin is ready for primetime?
They actually think that Bitcoin is a functional, scalable payment system.  Fools Undecided
hdbuck
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:52:32 PM
 #20876

...
Only if you pretend it is a flaw and not an opportunity for others to build onto the protocol to create solutions that meet the markets demands

When you buy a house & realize you've been sold an empty lot, look at it as an opportunity--you've been sold a chance to build your own!

No one ever pretended Bitcoin would natively scale to handle all of the world's transactions

Would it surprise you to know that many Bitcointalk users think Bitcoin is ready for primetime?
They actually think that Bitcoin is a functional, scalable payment system.  Fools Undecided

you should be happy, for once you may have been right
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:55:38 PM
 #20877

...
Bitcoin "payment network" not being able to scale natively to record, validate & retain every coffee purchase does not make it flawed as a proposition for a sound form of money.

The idea of Bitcoin as "a standard on top of which further payment systems must be developed" was, afaik, envisioned by most everyone with a hint of foresight.

I was told that Bitcoin was meant to do just that--"validate & retain every coffee purchase."  That's what made it so interesting.  Many here still don't get that Bitcoin is no more a proof of concept--an experiment.  A precursor, perhaps useful as a standard.
No more likely to replace money than an atomic [time standard] clock is to replace wristwatches.

I thought you knew better than to believe what any Bitcoiner would tell you  Wink

As far as Bitcoin being no more than a proof of concept... Yeah that's absolutely not true.

I imagine people were saying the same about the internet back in 1993.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
NotLambchop
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 06:59:44 PM
 #20878

...
I imagine people were saying the same about the internet back in 1993.

The Pets.com/Web TV analogy again.  Don't you ever get bored?

@hdbuck:
>for once



Always.  Each and every time Smiley
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 07:05:14 PM
 #20879

...
I imagine people were saying the same about the internet back in 1993.

The Pets.com/Web TV analogy again.  Don't you ever get bored?

@hdbuck:
>for once

Always.  Each and every time Smiley

Absolutely not, it is always fascinating to see the stupidity you can come up with when trying to disprove the analogy.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
NotLambchop
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
January 31, 2015, 07:11:08 PM
 #20880

...when trying to disprove the analogy.



Disprove the analogy...  You've clearly been to colleges Cheesy
Pages: « 1 ... 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 [1044] 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!